The Most Dangerous Game

Posted by Seer 7 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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I wondered if any Gulchers had ever read this short story by Richard Connell. I read it (in my "younger days") and found it to be a thought provoking essay on human conflict and human nature. I wonder if the American vs Russian adversaries are allegorical as respects capitalism vs. communism.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 3 months ago
    Since the general was a member of the Tsar's military, I hardly think he was communist, so the story is probably not meant as an allegory of communism/capitalism conflict. I've seen similar tales where the protagonist is a former member of the German Kaiser's army. Given that, I believe the allegory is more about how otherwise civilized people can normalize brutality and cruelty, since both of those military entities had a well-earned reputation for committing atrocities.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
      You're right, and I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Nevertheless, he could be symbolic of what may have been (erroneously) perceived as a Russian view of the world. You do know that Cossacks fought on both sides in World War II? Some for Hitler, some for Stalin, depending I think on whose ideology seemed the more pernicious to each of them.
      I didn't see the "normalizing" --whatever that means--of brutality and cruelty. On the one side, there was a man, a human, bored with hunting prey that were no longer challenging. In a way, for him, the sport was no longer satisfying, so to improve the risk-taking, perhaps, he could feel he had only accomplished his end (the pleasure of the hunt and outwitting the prey) by pursuing an animal on his own level.
      On the other side, there is a man whose only end was in surviving. So the question becomes, who is more likely to expend energy in using the most efficient means of "winning." Whose drives, whose ability to reason is going to outwit the other's?
      I didn't see "brutality" as such. It was all about the game for Zaroff. The game became the end, not vanquishing the prey.
      There are men who play the game for the "play" itself, as well as for its objective. The fulfillment of those drives evolved of necessity.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 3 months ago
    Oh yes, we read this in school in the 1960s. We were very philosophical, having studied Latin and their philosophers. By the time this sory came up, it was not about nationalities, but rather the inner men in the story, right vs wrong and if it was absolute. It made me aware early on that people could not be trusted on face value, and that the "kindness of strangers" could just as quickly become reversed.I learned I was more open to the killing of humans than the killing of animals, something, that had not been apparent before. Kids in government schools today are given exercises in heath class, very similar in the name of "values clarification". In those exercises they are faced with what morality they would break and how to chose the lives which mattered vs those to be left to die. Of course, it all has the liberal take on who matters.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
      Interesting, isn't it, that an ideology (Leftist/Liberal) that embraces relative morality, chooses to instruct the young in morals?
      I'm pretty sure the kids are taught that as long as it is for "the greater good" then it is moral.
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      • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 3 months ago
        Funny how I got possession of one such exercise, which kids had been told not to take home to parents. I paid someone to steal a copy! So much for morality. They had observations such a a nun was the first they were to give up, as she would never reproduce for a new society. A woman was validated fro selling sex to get a boat ride to another island to join her husband, who was then condemned for his disapproval of it. It was interesting how they assigned values to the people on the island, as to who might be sacrificed for food first, etc. So much for teaching academics, it was like "Lord of the Flies" in training! This was values clarification per a health teacher.
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        • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
          All I can say is My God!

          I can also say anyone who can not, or will not, judge another, even himself, has not the prerogative to tell me what's right and what's wrong!
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  • Posted by mminnick 7 years, 3 months ago
    I also read it in my yuouth. At the time I didn't think of the deeper philosophical points of the story, just enjoyed the adventure of it. I think it has even been made into a movie or served as the basis for a movie.
    What I take from it today is there is slways someone ready to make others their servant or victim. Occasionally the role gets reversered and the servant/victim becomes the master. In that case they usually become a carbon copy of the original master. This applies to societies as well as individuals.
    +1
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    • Posted by oldtk 7 years, 3 months ago
      This is a very well spoken conversation. I'm not that smart.

      There are many examples of the hunter becoming the hunted. I recall a movie called Master and Commander, when Lucky Jack, the captain of and English vessel, was trying to lure in the greatly superior French merchant vessel. The ships doctor noted to Jack, "you are the hunter, Jack."
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      • Posted by 7 years, 2 months ago
        I started watching that movie once, oldtk, but it seemed pretty brutal for a lady like me!!
        You are so smart.
        I started thinking abut some other aspects of human nature, you might find interesting, this afternoon. And that is that Europeans, and people of the West, seem to be a more direct, straightforward people than those of the East. Compare castles to mosques, scimitars to broadswords. Maybe eastern peoples delight in discovering more indirect ways of solving problems. The world can certainly do with all kinds.
        So maybe Lucky Jack had some Oriental mentality working for him.
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        • Posted by oldtk 7 years, 1 month ago
          You should have finished it. It's a great movie with some very poignant moments.

          Interesting point. European history is, if anything, brutal beyond compare. Lest art in the broad sword than the scimitar. A European castle is, if anything, sheer brutality, compared to the mosques. So, you could be right!

          I am then reminded of how Britain used opium to control the east.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
      That's one way to look at it. I am assuming you are a man; you said you enjoyed the adventure of it. I enjoyed what I thought of as strategy, or the reasoning behind the game between the hunter and the hunted. I always thought I would want to elaborate on the ending to include Zaroff trying different means to escape the hunter Rainsford, and not just being shot at the end.
      Sort of a Divine Justice.
      What it implies about human nature, masculine nature, to be more precise, is priceless. The challenge and the risk-taking become a fulfillment in itself. In some ways, like any competitive endeavor, the competition becomes the end, if one is not careful.
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      • Posted by mminnick 7 years, 3 months ago
        As a youth I enjoyed the adventure. As an adult I studied the strategy and tactics and operation art associated with each of the adversaries both in the story and the movies inspired by the story.
        It does delve into the motivations and psychology of antagonists and combatants. Remains a good story even in todays world.
        +1
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        • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
          I just realized, mminnick, I saw it, and see it, as a "game of wits"---THE most dangerous game. And in any game of wits, it is your knowledge of the nature of your adversary that will determine the outcome.
          I suppose that is where "strategy" comes in.
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        • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
          Absolutely. I was interested in the nature of the "combatants". And still am. It would be a lifetime of study.
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  • Posted by PowerBall 5 years, 8 months ago
    Someone important on the international stage, when introduced to this comment, suggested that it has been blocked from view because the Gulch has been infiltrated by those in the "vile entanglement of Leftism and Global Deep State", and/or their cohorts the Neo-Cons. This person was quite impressed with both the content of the topic and the comments posted thereto. Also its pertinency.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 5 years, 8 months ago
      If it is important to you, you should write a note to the admin and find out why.
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      • Posted by PowerBall 5 years, 8 months ago
        It is not that it is important to me; it may be important to others, and that importance would include the news, or perhaps rumors, of infiltration.

        If, indeed, there has been infiltration---trolling---those involved would certainly not care for the world to know about it, wouldn't you think?
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        • Posted by freedomforall 5 years, 8 months ago
          You are the only one who has posted about this and have repeated an accusation. You say it isn't important enough to verify the accusation yourself, but its important enough for you to make such an accusation.
          If you wish to make that known (assuming its true) then you need some evidence. All you have done is to offer an unsupported opinion based upon hearsay. I have not seen any specific evidence of statist bias on the part of the admin of this site. Everyone who posts here probably has some kind of bias. Could some of them be agents of the deep state? Certainly that is possible. But to make an accusation as you have you need evidence, not hearsay. Of course, you are welcome to offer your rational objective opinions ;^)
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  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 2 months ago
    I have read this story and like it, both from a literary standpoint and philosophical as well. But I don't necessarily read political structure into the story at all. It is a story of human nature. It is a story highlighting the brutality which underlies us all and which if not tempered by respect for rights and the philosophy of humanity (not to be confused with humanism. Here I am simply referring to the identification of Man as a unique and reasoning creature by which Reason come natural Rights) can turn to a different end.

    Thank you for bringing it up, nevertheless. +1
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    • Posted by 7 years, 2 months ago
      Thanks for your thoughtful reply, blarman. I also saw it as a thought-provoking essay on human conflict and human nature. I never read political structure into it, only in so far as it contributes to an understanding of human nature.

      You brought up a good point, I think. Zaroff's need (?)---drive, desire---to eliminate boredom overrode any respect he should have had for the "right" of another to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Maybe that should be "the right of another OF life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

      I always found this interesting: the word "routine"---in its meaning of "fixed" and thus conducive to boredom---is derived from "route"---a pathway. So someone tire of routine is looking for a new path.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 2 months ago
        What I see in Zaroff is a desire to achieve and excel coupled with a fundamentally flawed philosophy that regarded man as no better than beast. Zaroff saw little beyond bestiality (and here I don't imply a sexual connotation but merely a raw animal nature). I think one of the grave flaws was not to see how reason sets apart man from all other beasts and how by very nature of that reason he was denying his own humanity as he simultaneously denied it in others.

        The other thing that strikes me in this story is Zaroff's cowardice (he had the only firearms and he had hounds). If he was truly a competitor of like vs like, he would be seeking to take on the mind of man. This isn't a chess match of intellectual superiority at all, but a rigged contest based on superior tooling and arbitrary limitations. To me, Zaroff is a weakling - able only to dominate others through situation.
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        • -1
          Posted by 7 years, 2 months ago
          I would elaborate, blarman, but I'm kinda in a hurry right now and your comment requires deep thought. See, I can so be nice!
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 7 years, 2 months ago
    Obama should have read this story. His understanding of international gamesmanship would have been helped by reading it.
    An old Cossack song 'Oy da ne vecher" is part of Russian culture. You look it up on You Tube and it is sung everywhere in Russia.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 2 months ago
      Ovomit has the type of personality, which, like that of Marx, doesn't feel capable of competing. (He is a Marxist, you know.)
      It is why he does the things he does: back-stabbing, trying to impose his own reality, eliminating competition, sticking it to the other side, reliance on words.
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  • Posted by starbird56 7 years, 3 months ago
    I also read this story a long time ago. In some ways it reminds me of an Arthur C. Clarke short story called "Hate" (also known as "At the End of the Orbit"). I tried to find a link, but haven't been successful yet.
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  • Posted by oldtk 7 years, 3 months ago
    It's not about the game. It's about reversal of fortune. The idea that all could change, especially when you're feeling good about yourself and what you've done. The minute you get the big head, unseen powers will collapse it on you. In other words, don't count your chicks before they've hatched, don't think your invincible, don't get cocky!
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    • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
      Well, that's a rather pessimistic way of looking at life!

      I myself have had more than my share of falls due to excessive pride---some quite ingenuous---but it has never made me pessimistic. Made me a little more humble, maybe!
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  • Posted by preimert1 7 years, 3 months ago
    I've never read that particular story before, but it was well done. I've seen the theme of being hunted by a seemingly implacable foe expressed in a number of other stories: several episodes of Star Trek, "The Naked Prey" (Cornel Wilde 1965), "Terminator" come to mind. I have also experienced it in dreams where sometimes I prevailed and sometimes where my only escape was to force myself awake in a cold sweat. It seems to be a common dream (problem biting you in the ass.) In most instances the "hero" defeats the hunter, who is usually in control--sometimes complacent--by thinking outside the box to beat the hunter at his own game.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
      Zaroff had no motive, no objective for his hunt, other than to play the "game".

      There was a quote in one of my cipher puzzle books, can't remember the author, but he says pretty soon, it becomes all about the game, and not necessarily about the object.
      It could work for anything: a business, a football game, politics...
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      • Posted by preimert1 7 years, 3 months ago
        ...or lawyers vis a vis justice.
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        • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
          Good one. Another way of putting it is that competition becomes an end in itself.

          You might ask then why kill the prey, if it's only about the game. The answer is, that in this way the prey, because his very survival is at stake, will use all wits at his command, and unrelentingly. Sorta like the Courtarena duel in "The Dosadi Experiment" by Frank Herbert.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
      Just read the Wikipedia synopsis. In the same vein, except the tribesmen had a motive for their pursuit; it wasn't just about the game. I think it might be called revenge.
      I believe Connell's story is about the "game" itself. Maybe that's why it interested me more than just a tale of men after men.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
      Think as if you were the hunter, not the hunted, that's what you mean, isn't it.
      "The Naked Prey" sounds interesting. I'll look up the synopsis.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 3 months ago
    That is where I learned what a Cossack was. Great short story. Done over several times in film.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
      Well, I hope you haven't characterized all Cossacks by what you read in this short story. Don't take me wrong here, but I wonder if you have a certain naivete as regards what you read and how you allow that to characterize a person or a people.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 3 months ago
        Communication is to convey a point from one's head to another's. Using characterizations is a convenient means to illustrate points, particularly in writing where body language is absent.
        This is where I initially learned of the Cossack peoples, and no doubt it did set an initial impression on me at age 14. Even then I was not so naive to believe an entire peoples could be characterized so narrowly. However, I am no longer 14, and have evaluated Cossacks, muslims, christians, well-meaning liberals, republicans, libertarians and others quite thoroughly.

        I am disappointed "naivete" popped up so early. It is an inappropriate word for you to use about me based on our handful of interactions here.
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        • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
          I apologize. I did jump to the wrong conclusion, I think. I forever feel that the Russians, ALL of the Russians, need defending as they have been so much maligned by the West, even though they have been through so much sorrow, and yet have overcome debilitating oppression.
          A book you might enjoy is "The Cowboy and the Cossack" by Claire Huffaker.
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          • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 3 months ago
            I have heard of this book. I think my cousin mentioned it to me years ago.

            I have several Russian friends. Two very close friends around here, as well as a young woman that worked for me at one of our divisions a while ago. I was her mentor for a year in our mentorship program.
            My good close Russian friend introduced me to a Russian immigrant who was a senior person in the Russian space agency. We visited him in VT. We had to drink some infused vodka before we could talk. I am a pro-drinker, so this was just fine. He was explaining a technique he was skilled in a wrote books on to solve problems, any problems. I was skeptical, but did some research when I got back. He was explaining TRIZ, which I find very cool.
            In my experience, Russians are pretty sharp people. I hypothesize they have honed analytical skills due to the more limited computing resources they had (perhaps there are other reasons as well). They seem like hard working, smart people to me, of course, my cross section is small.
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            • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
              I tried to get my husband to read "The Cowboy and The Cossack" because I liked it so much, but the author's name turned him off. He was sure it would be effeminate.

              Infused with what? Marijuana? Doesn't sound good/
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              • Posted by strugatsky 7 years, 3 months ago
                Infused vodka is regular commercial vodka with various fruit syrups added. The syrup dilutes the vodka somewhat, but the sweetness makes it more palatable. I have never heard of any drugs added to vodka - that would be an American invention.
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              • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 3 months ago
                One was infused with onions and garlic. The other was with orange berries. They looked just like a similar vodka orange berry drink I had in Finland. The Fins told me those berries only grew in Finland. The Russian scientist said that was nonsense and he was growing them in VT.
                The onion one was ok but not my favorite, as much as I like onions and garlic, but the berry one was great.
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                • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
                  I live in Colorado Springs. Use your imagination! I hear it is being marketed here---alcohol with an infusion of marijuana. Actually, they're putting weed in everything now.
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                  • Posted by khalling 7 years, 2 months ago
                    we raised our family and had our business in Colorado Springs for over 15 years. huh. small world. anyway, I ultimately thought the story was about colonialism/elitism. there are always stories about "The Game"-I think of the movie by the same name-Michael Douglas I think. Ultimately even at the highest levels, these individuals are second handers-no better than 2 bit clever grifters. Bernie Madoff comes to mind. But capitalism is not the fertile ground for such people. Cronyism and socialism are fertile grounds for that kind of thinking
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                    • -1
                      Posted by 7 years, 2 months ago
                      Because of the competitive nature of man, anything can become a "game".

                      I'm working on a theory that perhaps laws and regulations (where needed) should address means and methods, rather than objects. But I don't think it is going to go anywhere.
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                    • -1
                      Posted by 7 years, 2 months ago
                      Did you see "Countervailing Powers"?

                      You strike me sometimes, kh, as a type of Pollyanna, always looking at the good side of human nature.
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                    • -1
                      Posted by 7 years, 2 months ago
                      I wanted you to understand that no matter how laws are made, or how few regulations there are, there will always be those men who play for the pleasure of the risk, the pleasure of competing, and not the object or goal.
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            • Posted by 7 years, 3 months ago
              The article mentions the FSB. Apparently whoever wrote it doesn't know the FSB is more like America's FBI---handles internal matters.
              I imagine the entire world is laughing its fool head off, don't you.
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