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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 5 months ago
    My favorite myth about climate change is that CO2 is not the gas causing heating in ANY model showing correlation now. The gas in EVERY model correlating is water vapor. Yet, no one knows this, and although every person familiar with the subject does, no one is educating the public. This is the best evidence of public manipulation for power in present time.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
      Yup. They like to point to CO2, but CO2 actually contributes to cooling - not warming. It's also plant food and science points pretty clearly to the time of the dinosaurs where CO2 as a percentage of the atmosphere was 5x higher than it is now and plant life flourished.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 5 months ago
        I don't know about cooling. Where does that come from? My research said that the first-order affect of CO2 was warming, but the fraction of frequencies it retains is saturated, and adding more CO2 has ever diminishing effect.
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        • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
          Many scientists like to point to the "greenhouse" effect of CO2 which is a reflection of energy. The problem with that whole notion is that the majority of our energy comes from the sun. If CO2 were reflecting energy to the degree they claim, it would be reflecting energy from the sun away from Earth - preventing it from reaching the surface - way before it would be reflecting it back toward the surface. It's an argument that sounds good - until you actually look at the entire picture.
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          • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 5 months ago
            But there is a standard calculation that given the atmospheric gases, and incident radiation, you can calculate the steady-state temperature. It works pretty well, but under predicts slightly. It is a text book calculation to do Venus, Mars and the Earth. This calculation will show an increase in temperature for higher CO2, but it is a fractional power (weaker than sqrt) and additional CO2 has little affect.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      Yet "all" scientists are in agreement about climate change. Right? You just illustrated the point this guy was making. Water vapor may not be the final answer, but it is another bit in the puzzle. And, yes, no one is educating the public, although I think a lot of people may not want to know, so they just move to "scientists all agree", thus validating the end state by default.
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  • Posted by dukem 7 years, 5 months ago
    The most heated political arguments I have gotten in to during the past 10 years have been "climate" arguments. I first got interested when Michael Crichton wrote "State of Fear" and it still applies today (yes, I know it was a novel). In my discussions with warmists, I ask how many books they have read whose facts contradict their belief system, and the answer is always "none." Recently in a rather heated discussion I asked my opponents if they had ever had a discussion about climate change with a "denier" as they like to call us. The answer was "none." I provided a list of ten books that I suggested they read, and of course that was seen as further evidence of a conspiracy by big oil and deniers. Once one's mind is made up, facts do not matter.
    I'm hoping that Trump's recent cabinet picks can help sway the masses, but I doubt it. At least maybe he can slow down the every more insistent absurdity and economic damage.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
      That was a great book - especially when you find out that the first writing of the book was how global warming was going to destroy the planet. While Crichton was doing his research (which if you'd read any of his other books shows up in each chapter heading) he had to go back and re-write the entire book because the research contradicted his initial plot.

      This was also the last book he wrote. He died after advocating that instead of spending billions combating climate change we should spend billions addressing poverty and living conditions around the world because they were things that would actually help people and have a real outcome.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 7 years, 5 months ago
    Scientific theories are approximations of the behavior of reality. Sometimes they are very good approximations such as Newtonian mechanics and Special and General Relativity but it is generally recognized even these excellent models are incomplete. AGW is certainly no more "settled science" than Newton and Einstein. AGW is important politically because it can be used to argue that increased government power is necessary to avert a global catastrophe. However, to accomplish this objective AGW does not need to be real, it only needs to be believed.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      Exactly the point Prof! I think this guy was trying to get there, maybe his gravity thing threw things off. But his point is that those with a vested (financial) interest (which is seemingly a lot of Democrats) have made it into solid, proven, foundational science. I think there is climate change in process, but no proof is on the table that man has anything to do with it. The CFC issue was provable by in situ measurements, the CO2 theory has not.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 5 months ago
    Yes there is climate change. It is a deceit of certain humans that mankind had anything of relevance to do with it. At various times, the earth has been a fireball, a waterworld, an iceball and a steam bath. All that was way before man made an appearance on earth. Perhaps it was the insect's fault. They grew pretty big during the steamy era. As to gravity, Dr. Einstein screwed that up so that poor old Newton should have eaten the apple and forgotten about it.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 5 months ago
      Me dino sez the pull of gravity on this planet is way too fast.
      Drop something breakable and it shatters at your feet in hardly more time than the blink of an eye.
      The slower gravity of Mars and especially the Moon is way better as long as you can reach down to catch that coffee cup quick enough. Heck, come to think of it, that coffee cup may not even break upon impact
      This is clearly not fair. Since our lib amoral betters say 97% of scientists agree we humans have the power to make Earth hotter, we should also be able to make gravity safer so granny won't fall and break her hip.
      Granny lives matter!
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  • Posted by coaldigger 7 years, 5 months ago
    I am not smart enough to be a scientist but I have known a few. It is my experience that they never close their mind to anything and would never consider an issue to be closed. (It is kind of what makes them scientists.) When someone says that "all scientists agree", my mind goes numb; I focus on something else and don't catch the rest of their blabbering. I don't begin to understand gravity and have often tried and failed. I have never escaped gravity so I live with it's effects and have faith that it exists. It is one of the few things I accept on faith but it is because I am sure there is an explanation even though it has escaped me.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      I am sure in your everyday life you exercise "science". It is the mystical labeling that makes it become a union niche, just like any professional can be a "teacher" but only those blessed by the system can be "educators".
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      I am sure in your everyday life you exercise "science". It is the mystical labeling that makes it become a union niche, just like any professional can be a "teacher" but only those blessed by the system can be "educators".
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  • Posted by preimert1 7 years, 5 months ago
    Only time will tell who was right and who was wrong on climate change. Meanwhile they tell me that the Arctic ocean is navigable for the first time in recorded history. I haven't gone up there to see for myself. For all I now it could be the product of a Hollywood sound stage like that moon walk thing.

    I resent that a lot of gulchers seem to label scientists who accept grants as common whores. I've known quite a few over the course of my career who are pretty objective. Most of them had a lot of integrity irrespective of who paid them--same for engineers. Who would you be more likely to trust to build a bridge, a politician or an engineer? A politician may have his name on it, but he didn't design it.

    As for climate change it appears to be a mixed blessing. Like as ice disappears there will be more
    arable land, but less--or too much rain fall. Some eskimos will be homeless. Polar bears will devolve to be just plain old brown bears. I'd advise that that if you own land on the coast, you should pray for the best but prepare for the worst.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      I would not say anyone has labeled scientists as common whores, I would say that you must question their veracity, especially when a lot of them have made a cottage industry of one issue or another, and their jobs depend on government funding for that issue. There are a lot of people who have made Climate Change into their money machine, selling power, influence or data that favors one position or another (both sides do it). No argument about some ae objective, but a lot seem to be conviently in line with the majority when it comes to their area and "the big issue" of the moment. A few years ago it was energy, and oil exploration, then renewables, now Climate Change. This is not the only arena where it happens, look at where government throws money, and you will know where the data is suspect (remember Solyandra?) Electric cars were another one. I don';t know how or if Tesla ever took any money, but Elon Musk seems to be doing ok.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 5 months ago
        You have to believe in what you do. When we teach the Scientific Method - my essay here http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/20... - we do not admit that a previous Step Zero had to exist. Scientists investigate whatever they know to be interesting. How they know is not taught - and perhaps cannot be taught. Similarly, you can teach artistic technique, but you cannot teach talent.

        The value in the scientific method is that it is an objective test. If you cannot present your discovery in that format, then it is not science.

        Again, by close analogy, the Babylonians had tables of Pythagorean Triples, but had no proof, no conceptual formulation of why this must be true.

        So, I have no problem with a scientist arguing for his theory, even long after everyone else has taken a different path. Edward Morely of Michelson-Morely spent the rest of his life trying to work out the "problems" in the experiment in order to get back to "ether." On the other hand, Georg Ohm was ridiculed in his own time. Now, Ohm's Law is unquestioned.

        What I see here is that anti-Climate Change is the mainstream. And to me it sounds like an expression of the anti-intellectual tradition in American politics that was identified by Richard Hofstadter in the previous century.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          Actually, I would rather see facts and then conjecture based on them, and have it presented as either a theory or a fact based statement of condition. No guesses, not interpretation, just what is really happening. Too much pontificating on both sides, but the CC gang took over the bus and that was all she wrote.
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  • Posted by Joseph23006 7 years, 5 months ago
    Forty years ago the prediction was that by now we would be in an ice age, twenty years ago the same data proved without doubt that warming would have our coastal cities up to their ankles in water by now. No mention of the time between @900 and 1300 when Greenland was geen and growing grapes or the the Renaissance began. And what about those fossilized tropical plants and animals found in Canada and Siberia? If 98% believed in the climate conensus, they must have been drinking the drugged coolaide before the vote.
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  • Posted by Fish 7 years, 5 months ago
    My two cents:
    1. According to Karl Popper, a truly scientific theory must be refutable. As many of you have observed, the man made climate change either doesn't offer refutable predictions or the "believers" don't accept them. Perhaps there are some interests involved in all that :).
    2. "What I have attempted to show with this book is that no exceptional brain power is needed to construct a new science or to expand on an existing one. What is needed is just the courage to face inconsistencies and to avoid running away from them just because 'that's the way it was always done'. (The Goal, 1986, E.M.Goldratt). We need more courageous people.
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  • Posted by Lucky 7 years, 5 months ago
    What is said about the 97% myth and climate alarmism is correct.
    Refutation of the so-called science used by climate alarmists best belongs to fraud.

    References to string theory and gravity, constant or changing, muddy the issue.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      The point they were making was there is no such thing as "settled science". Even toay you hear the people with the stakes in Climate Change (monery) whining that it is all set, done, agreed to by wall the mainstream science, so anyone who doubts their "truth" is denying the "real truth". The point was gravity is something that everyone settled on 300 years ago, and yet even today, there are new discoveries that alter the "truth". So it is with "climate change or Global Warming" or whatever label they want to use. No one has all the facts, since no one knows just how many facts their are. Particle Physics is a good example of that.
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      • Posted by tdechaine 7 years, 5 months ago
        I agree with Lucky - gravity is not a rational analogy.
        But what is important here is what is omitted: that the real climate data says that warming is not serious and they don't show that man is the primary contributor to it.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 5 months ago
    I am not going to point that down because it really opens some discussions. But, mostly, it is nonsense. Overall, it is just post-modernism and strong skepticism that we can know nothing for certain. (Are they sure about that?) The swipe at climatology was the only point they really wanted to make.

    First of all, Investors Business Daily is not an example of mainstream media. It is a free market alternative to the Wall Street Journal. WSJ is mainstream; IBD is not.

    On the main point, the research cited on string theory is weak. String theory may have mathematical consistency as an argument, but it lacks empirical evidence. That much is damning. As for that article, if gravity did not exist at the Big Bang, what did? What is the origin of gravity? The author there, Kerry Jackson, admits to not understanding the scientific research cited, yet insists on jumping to a previous conclusion about climate change.

    And if "nothing is constant" then the climate is not constant and must be changing. What that means for human action is a different question entirely. The warming climate seems to be enjoyed by wolves, beavers, and elk in Yellowstone. (See here: http://www.yellowstonepark.com/wolf-r...
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      I think the point is illustrated here:

      "A new theory from the University of Amsterdam further strengthens the fact that nothing is constant in this world, even gravity. According to the researchers, gravity is not a fundamental force of nature because it had not really existed at first," says the University Herald of Verlinde's latest work on the subject."

      The guy seems to want to make the point that even when considered "settled science" something not previously known can show up and change the "facts". He is making the point with the climate change "For three decades they've predicted disaster and for three decades they've been wrong, yet they can't stop forecasting catastrophe or even generate enough introspection to consider that they might be wrong."

      You may disagree with the idea, my agreement with him lies in the fact I do not want anyone ramming their "fixes" down my throat, making me pay taxes, selling me crap fuel, or having to give billions to some foreign country so they can stop spewing a presumed nasty gas. I do not want to have to fund idiots like Gore and his Global Climate Change Business empire, or extend the reach of government to "save the world" or the whales, or the fish, or the poor polar bears. All because a bunch of "scientists" "agree". Climate change may be real, but the efforts to "stop it" will always be an ignorant adventure in manipulation. The only thing man can do is adapt.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 7 years, 5 months ago
    Human beings for sure warm the planet. How much? Somewhere between something and next to nothing. I don't really care to bother with the topic that uses an alchemy of computer models to guess an outcome in a system with so many variables.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 5 months ago
    There are those that propose that gravity is a relatively weak force operating locally according to strength. I would agree that the "Gravitational system" needs to be rethought...seems more likely that what they think they see is actually electromagnetic according to the Electric Universe Theory.

    One thing that was really interesting some 10 plus years ago is that it was discovered via satellite, that gravity is not consistent over the entire earth. It fit the experiences I've had on my sailing yacht over 12 years...no such thing as a standardized "Sea Level" don't ya know.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
    So, I got a petition from Change.org, that shows just how rabid these "scientists" are to stick to their story:

    President-elect Trump has called climate change a Chinese hoax, vowed to dismantle America's climate and clean energy policies, and appointed climate deniers with ties to the fossil fuel industry to his transition team and Cabinet.

    There is too much at stake for us to stay silent. Human-caused climate change threatens America’s economy, national security, and public health and safety. That's why we and over 800 of our colleagues, all of whom work on climate, energy, or Earth science, have written an open letter (read here) urging Donald Trump to take 6 key steps to address climate change:

    1) Make America a clean energy leader.
    2) Reduce carbon pollution and America's dependence on fossil fuels.
    3) Enhance America's climate preparedness and resilience.
    4) Publicly acknowledge that climate change is a real, human-caused, and urgent threat.
    5) Protect scientific integrity in policymaking.
    6) Uphold America's commitment to the Paris Climate Agreement.

    Please join us in urging President-elect Trump to #ActOnClimate by signing this petition.

    Thank you,

    Dr. Suzanne P. Anderson, Professor of Geography, Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research, University of Colorado at Boulder

    Dr. Catherine Gautier, Professor Emerita, Department of Geography, University of California Santa Barbara

    Dr. Mark Z. Jacobson, Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering and Director of the Atmosphere/Energy Program, Stanford University

    Dr. Dan Kammen, Energy and Resources Group and Goldman School of Public Policy, University of California, Berkeley; Science Envoy, US State Department

    Dr. Michael E. Mann, Distinguished Professor and Director of the Earth System Science Center, Pennsylvania State University

    Dr. R. Pamela Reid, Professor of Marine Geosciences, Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, University of Miami

    Dr. Cindy Shellito, Professor of Meteorology, University of Northern Colorado

    Dr. Richard C. J. Somerville, Distinguished Professor Emeritus, Scripps Institution of Oceanography, University of California San Diego

    Dr. Sarah Ann Woodin, Carolina Distinguished Professor Emerita, Department of Biological Sciences, University of South Carolina

    I am not sure if these guys really have a belief, or if it just fits their funding requests...
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      I can go with the clean energy thing, only because a real producer will no doubt find a way to do it cheaply, and still make it work right, and do a good thing at the same time. But these guys are still hanging on to the "drink the damn koolaid" theory.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 5 months ago
      "I am not sure if these guys really have a belief,"
      It's just accepting reality. I would sign their petition if I thought it mattered. What I personally do, though, matters more than petitioning others. I would probably get more return by giving up Taco Bell, although signing the petition is far easier. This is part of accepting reality, regardless of what we wish were true.
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      • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 5 months ago
        It is accepting a fraudulent reality , one that cheats lies and ignores data to push their bogus theory.
        Estimate for -27 for low tomorrow night -60 with wind chill and it's not winter yet. Man made pollution is a reality , that we have any effect on the weather is arrogance! the sun and its cycles can be studied and that will show the climate change is a constant . Solar flares , or lack there of ,CME , planetary alignment these effect the weather. Just checkout Adapt2030 .
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          Dob, I agree that there are many other factors ignored by the CC believers. I also believe most of them have a direct connection to money involved in it. If Al Gore was a true believer, he wouldn't be flying around in one of the worst "man made climate change" polluting aircraft. But then, it's all about money, and his importance to himself...
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
        CG, accepting reality is a key to a lot of issues today. I agree your own actions may be worth more than a petition, but I do not sign petitions that conflict with my beliefs, and I do not believe we need to "Publicly acknowledge CC is real and man made" since I have yet to see any proof it is man made. Just their own beliefs they want to be fact. Again, I am betting there is grant money for each of those names involved.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 5 months ago
          I think it's reasonable expect a president to at least acknowledge he accepts science, esp about things that make some people reject science based on their own desires: global warming, vaccines, UFOs, GMOs, evolution, homeopathy. Of course part of science is we're always open to new evidence. I expect someone at that level to be able to articulate what the science shows, how that's different from our desires of what it should be, and that science is a process of figuring things out.
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
            I agree, and not inject their politics into it. Gore set them down the road of commitment to it, and they have never wavered or examined the data (all the data, not just the stuff that fits their view) and produced any definitive proof that it is all my (man's) fault.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 5 months ago
              "definitive proof that it is all my (man's) fault."
              There are two problems in this phrase.
              1. Humans influencing the environment is not intrinsically a fault. The environment only has value, in human terms, as a place for us to live and make/do things we like. As soon as hunter gather bands started spreading, it started changing the environment and started the current mass extinction event. Even hunter-gather bands sometimes understood the effects of their actions and knew things like hunting young animals decreases the population and reduces value for people next year. Now that there are 7 billion of us, there's even more value at stake. The current mass-extinction and a large percentage of global warming are "our fault" in the sense human activities causes them, but they word fault wrongly implies there's something immoral about it.
              2. Science doesn't operate on definitive proof. We have to accept the evidence we have today, always being open to knew evidence. It's the opposite from law where attorneys pick one theory of the case and look for evidence to support it, leaving the responsibility of other theories of the case to the opposing side.

              "not inject their politics into it."
              This unfortunately happens to a lot of things, even to a project to make an electronic product or something. It's very easy for someone to look at how our actions broadly affect other people and say, "see, we should think of humans all as one big family." The problem is the logic that human actions having broad effects --> collective.
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              • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
                CG, I was thinking of the use of the guilt syndrome the Climate Change peddlers use. It is always "mans" fault", it can't be just cosmic progression, solar changes, environmental changes of a cosmic timescale, it is always "man made climate change". There are thoeries, there are conjectures, and there are chains of logic that have been put forth blaming man (which then seems to always trickle down to what THEY want me to pay for in increased taxes, fees, and licenses) without ever showing me incontrovertible proof with data, that I am to blame. One side produces their data to prove it, then the other produces their data to say no. It cannot go both ways, and I have some question as to whether 200 years would be enough to cause such an impact, and if really true, then a lot more could be done from a technological perspective (of which some things are actually in progress), to address it aggressively. "We have to accept the evidence we have today" indeed, but whose evidence? I have seen scientific discussions that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that CO2 is the ultimate weapon, and then other discussions, just as scientific, that say it's all BS and is physically and mathematically impossible for it to happen. I have seen it used as political leverage to advance others agendas, usually with dollar signs attached to them. That is why I do not subscribe to either side, beyond the fact that it does seem some form of climate change may be in motion, and I really think we do not have the power or tools to control it, especially when there is no defined root cause.
                " The current mass-extinction and a large percentage of global warming are "our fault" in the sense human activities causes them,", I must respectfully disagree here, I do noit believe there is sufficient evidence to lay blame anywhere yet. Al Gore started this train, and no one has ever been able to stop it.

                https://www.skepticalscience.com/al-g...

                http://www.naturalnews.com/053992_Inc...

                This one is a supporter of the theory, however, if you look at the Hurricane data there is an set of peaks dating back to 1880 that sort of belie the idea of having been able to effect climate back then. In addition, they pull out the ocean conveyor belt idea, that, when it occurs, will throw us right back into a deep Ice Age. That was proposed as a trigger cause for all Ice Ages about 20 years ago by a Japanese Oceanographer, whose work was poo-pooed as "just theory".:

                https://www.sciencenews.org/article/c...

                Bottom line for me is I just do not have enough reliable data to buy into either side of the story beyond "Yep it does look like things are changing".
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                • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 5 months ago
                  Thanks for the detailed answer. I agree with parts about "fault" and increased taxes. I think the rest of it is anti-scientific. The two "sides" arguing and trying to shift the burden for "incontrovertible proof" to other "side" and "lay blame" is for talking heads and politicians whose job it is to sell a narrative. The current evidence overwhelmingly shows human activities are changing the climate in costly ways. I admire Al Gore for packaging that information in a way that's easy to understand and pushing for action.

                  If you just don't accept the science, it's a dead-end for me. Science is open to new evidence, so maybe it will turn to be like the scientific knowledge that margarine is more healthful than butter. New evidence disproved it. I hope by some miracle it turns out homeopathy is real, Taco Bell is healthful, and seven billion people living industrial lives on earth has no effect on the climate. Unfortunately I see them all as very unlikely.

                  Is your use of the words "fault" and "blame" intentional? "Laying blame" is some combination of childish, misanthropic, and manipulative. I'm not saying you're doing that. I think you're just accidentally adopting politicians' language.
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