Did Rand believe in Romantic Loyalty?

Posted by FlashGordon 10 years, 9 months ago to Culture
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If you read Rand's novels her female heroine's always seem to just move on to a better man if one appears. In fact I thought of renaming Atlas Shrugged to "Who's Hank Rearden" because she just seems to forget about Hank when she meets John Galt. So did Rand believe if you meet someone "better" and they're interested in you, you just move on? I know she got upset with N. Branden when he picked someone else (we're all human). So those that study Rand more seriously than me, did she believe in marriage (ignore the question of children for the moment) or other forms of romantic committment?


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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Has it? I hadn't heard anything about it. I'll Google it Thanks for the info on central dogma.
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  • Posted by Wonky 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sorry, the central dogma is that DNA controls destiny. This has been proven to be absolutely untrue. Organisms utilize DNA as a blueprint for creating proteins in response to environmental stimuli. Under stress, cells can intentionally cause errors in the DNA replication process until they die or manage to produce a mutation that eliminates the stress. I'm pretty sure it's all called Epigenetics now. Evolution as random mutations over many generations has definitely been disproved.
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  • Posted by Wonky 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As near as I can tell, Rand believed that a philosophy should be fully integrated from the ground up and free of any contradictions. I would think it would be very difficult to pick and choose bits and pieces from many differing philosophies and call it a single philosophy as Rand would define it.
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't know what the Central dogma is, so I'd like to hear about that. If you want to start a post on evolution feel free to although Mike already started one. I don't want to discuss it to much though, and s for Rands view on it I'm not concerned as she is a philosopher not a biologist.
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  • Posted by Wonky 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Is there a way to break this evolution chain off into a new thread? I'm very curious, and have no idea what Rand did or didn't have to say about evolution/adaptation. I do wonder what she'd have to say about "the central dogma", or about some of Bruce Lipton's ideas.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    sorry. I am interested in this. adaptation vs evolution. The concepts converge. I want to frame the some questions that address the convergence and thought you might be a couple steps ahead in the argument.
    On facts. hmmm. you and I are going to disagree. I feel it coming...;)
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ah ha I see your point although I don't have an answer for you. I'm not very big on speculation and I don't have the time to invest in a sure answer, it could be either or though. In the case of the moths, you can see that a certain mutation increases survivability of that strain, and I wouldn't say that they would change color very quickly considering it took 50 years. Also once the moth was that color it wouldn't change back during its life time. With that limited knowledge and in that specific category I feel safe in judging in favor of actual evolution. How's that?
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  • Posted by gblaze47 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sorry? I'm trying to understand what I'm to clarify. I was replying to Rozar's link about evolutionary traits that appear to be happening. I wasn't making a comment on what you had said, but I can if you would like me too. :)

    Edit: To be honest I agree on almost all accounts of what you have said, I remember being told by a prof. years ago was what the difference between a 'fact' and the truth was , "It was a fact that the sun revolved around the earth, the truth is the earth revolves around the sun."
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    agreed. Did I suggest otherwise? The "soil" is hugely important. gb, can you make a further statement of clarification here?
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  • Posted by gblaze47 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Depends on the cause, is it actually a genetic change, ie. base pair changing or is it epigenetics which is due to the methylation of DNA? Epigenetics can take place from one generation to another. It is a response to rapid changes in ones environment. ie. a set of parents starve, and so give birth to weaker, smaller children. When the children grow up, and eat healthy diets and proper medical care, their children should once again be their original size and health as to what their genes are coded for. The issue is they never do go back to their normal 'genetic' potential they remain very often weak and small. This just shows that there is much more than genetics that play a crucial role in adaptation.
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Can we equate a genetic adaptation to the environment through natural selection to evolution?
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  • Posted by Wonky 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This may be a little hard to follow, but I think it could be relevant...

    The Parable of Parables

    One mother told her daughter this:
    -------

    "If you do not send a "Thank You" note to every person who gives you a gift, no one will like you, God will frown upon you, and you may be stung by 1,000 bees."

    -------

    Another mother told her daughter this:
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    A mother once told her two daughters that If they did not send a Thank You note to every person who gave them gifts, no one would like them, God would frown upon them, and they may be stung by 1,000 bees.

    Yet another told her two daughter that if they sent a Thank You note to some people that gave them gifts, that they might enjoy the experience of gratitude and the feeling of being special for several more moments, and that as they grew older, they would be happier at remembering how wonderful the world was and how generous it's inhabitants were.

    The first daughter of the first mother ignored her and refused to send Thank You notes to anyone who had given her gifts because she felt that it would satisfy her lying mother. She lived a life in which she always felt betrayed and always suspected people of trying to manipulate her.

    The second daughter of the first mother believed her mother because she felt that was what a good daughter ought to do. She lived her life resenting the thousands of Thank You notes she was obliged to write, never felt gratitude upon receiving gifts, and feared the wrath of God when she failed to send a note or sent one late.

    The first daughter of the second mother ignored her and did not send any Thank You notes. She did not feel particularly happy or special, but nor did she fear deception.

    The second daughter of the second mother believed her and sent out some Thank You notes to specific people for special gifts she had received or for special things they had done. She did, in fact, feel enriched for the experience, and led a generally happy life.

    -----

    The first daughter laughed at her mother and said "that's the God of the old testament. Jesus taught that it is good to give thanks, and so I will do so in the way that I choose". She learned nothing from her mother that day, and went on to live an interesting life that was not particularly fulfilling.

    The second daughter learned to speak in parables like her mother before her, and spent her life spreading health, wealth, happiness and good will.
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  • Posted by DragonLady 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How fortunate you two are to have each other. As Dave Allen used to say, may your God go with you.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am in no way stating that genius cannot be BORN anywhere. I am making the argument that the freer the society the MORE geniuses can thrive. Newtonian principles are not covered by patents and copyrights are tangential. My overall point about scientific genius is that it mainly appears in societies tolerant of reason, exploration, promotion of investigation of nature opposed to a society that is stuck in dogma that the answer rests in for example one book.
    As far as Priestly goes, I don't know enough. Many inventors did come to the US because it was easier to get patent protection and therefore funding.
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  • Posted by Wonky 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's tough at times... Often it feels intellectually dishonest to use words like God, Heaven, Faith, Prayer, Eternal, Spirit, etc, and know that they are translations designed to make the conversation less intimidating. In the end though, if the value is expressed, affirmed and integrated, it doesn't really matter which route individual minds took to get there.

    What I love most about my wife is that we can share all of our translations and doubly support our values knowing there are 2 different paths to them.
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  • Posted by lrbeggs 10 years, 8 months ago
    I have pondered this same question myself on occasion. I have concluded that Dagny's early relationships were imperfect and would not therefore have lasted even without the appearance of John Galt. My two cents...
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  • Posted by DragonLady 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Any chance of the two of you writing a book? I need some serious assistance dealing with my Christian friends. I've never been known for my great tact....
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  • Posted by DragonLady 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Her stand supporting abortion, for one. I hold life in high regard, and I believe a life begins at conception. Hence I would never consider abortion for myself, but on the other hand, I do not have the right to impose my beliefs on someone else. Also her sanction of infidelity in marriage. Seems to me if you make a promise to someone, you should keep that promise. If you cannot, the promise should be terminated, openly and honestly, so all involved can move on. I'm not a huge supporter of marriage, but I support even less what used to be called "open marriage".
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "are you telling me that if Newton had grown up in India, he still would have developed all of his ideas..."
    Srinivas Ramanujan shows that genius appears anywhere. To be RECOGNIZED and REWARDED requires a special society. He came to the attention of mathematician G. H. Hardy at Cambridge, who nearly set the letters aside as being just from another crank because Ramanujan did not use standard notation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_R...

    Also, read about the life of Newton. The Principia came from the Royal Society with its "imprimatur" but with no royal copyright. Also, Newton was not interested in publishing at all only Sir Edmund Halley's efforts upon him made that possible at all. Newton was certainly the most brilliant man of his time, and perhaps the greatest scientist of all time. However, he could have been born anywhere. By comparision, about 100 years later, Joseph Priestley FLED England for America because copyrights and patents strong as they were held no barrier to a mob of ignorant royalists.

    Moreover, Newton HID many of his RELIGIOUS works for the same fear of persecution. He was a Unitarian, perhaps even an Arian. No copyright laws help with that.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Then we should not accept Newtonian Mechanics because it does not explain chemistry or optics?
    Relativity does not explain what happens in an atom, and quantum mechanics does not explain gravitational fields. They are incomplete. We do not have a theory that explains, and we do not need such. Most scientists would find it depressing if had theories that explained everything. Let's use the language correctly. First of all a "fact" is a specific instance, a theory explains many facts and has predictive as well as explanatory powers. If you are asking for a list of every "fact" that Evolution explains or predicted, we'd fill up the Encyclopedia Brittani ca and more.
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    She's following your logic to its conclusions. If your premise "a genius is never lost" is true than people we know to be geniuses would have risen to the occasion even in India etc... However if Einstein was born in the Sahara or what not he probably would have been a genius relative to his surroundings, just not what we think of him today.
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