No one is forcing you to survive man. If you can't you can't.

Rob, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to leave. You can work to change it via voting, etc.

But your point about "No "force" necessary for most folks means force is necessary for the rest. This was Hitler's argument.

But more generally, democracy means everyone will have to follow the majority to participate in the society. We are not arguing this. We are arguing the specific applications of this policy. There are more women than men in the USA. If the women vote to force all jobs to go to women, then by your logic, it's good enough for most folks.

Democracy is not an excuse for crime - that is a mob mentality, and it is the argument you fall back to every time (I was hoping for something more in pressing you, but back to the same spot). The flaw in your position is that you are merging democracy with morality. Democracy is a means to realize morality when properly applied, not a moral perfection of its own. But democracy depends on clear thinking by the majority, and that is the nature of this dialog - to clarify thinking and to challenge points. The reason this post is so long is because, as you have called out, it is full of strawman arguments. But the main one is yours - you relegate the point of challenge to a challenge of democracy as soon as your primary point fails.

I'm bored now.

Bye.

If your criteria for success is saving money then we can just let all the old people die in the streets. That would save money but few lives.

The WHO...
http://www.cato.org/publications/comment...

"Your "opinion" pieces aren't supported by facts." Rob

You have obviously not had enough time to examine the links I have sent you; let alone determine that they are devoid of facts. The Cato institute is a libertarian think tank that does studies dealing with facts.
O.A.

You get what you pay for. Should you have a medical problem, have you considered how long you might have to wait for a surgery? The wait is common under socialized medicine. Check into it. What's the good of good medicine if you die waiting? You would be ready to pay your last $$ while you are waiting. That's not allowed. Please get all your facts together before you evaluate. http://www.thenewamerican.com/reviews/op...

point for the last part. actually we do have stats. and for those countries, wait times for time sensitive treatments are lengthy. Often patients with means plan vacations to other countries to get treatments/procedures quickly. Long wait times, medication shortages, talent shortages.

You say it is better, but how do you know until you have suffered it. If your insurance company does not approve of your treatment you have a chance at legal recourse. You may even have picked the wrong insurance co./coverage. Your odds against the government vs. your odds against the insurance company with the possible assistance of your government... Insurance companies are highly regulated. Who will watch the watchers? Our POTUS will not even be regulated by the Constitution...
When our federal government has a record of bankrupt programs,malfeasance and corruption why would you entrust them with your health... your most valuable asset?
There are market solutions, but the power seekers are not served by these options.

the treatments will just not be offered. and advancements will decline. where is the incentive to invent?

According to you, and the majority. Minority rights be damned.

You shouldn't have to pay for wars you don't want Rob. Instate a voluntary tax system and you won't have to. I'm not telling anyone to get a job and at most I would only recommend to another human that they increase their personal value. I don't care if it benefits me, in fact most of what Obama has passed does benefit me, that doesn't make it right. And the rules change Rob, these aren't the same rules the country was founded on.

Rob,

Foreign nations with national healthcare are no panacea. They have many problems you are overlooking, like the long and often life threatening/ death sentence, waiting periods for critical tests like MRIs. The destruction of the capitalist medical system we now have will result in less advancement of medicine. The other nations with national systems are not innovators; they ride upon our coattails without investment in R&D.

If medicaid is so wonderful, then why didn’t the government just make it available to those in need and leave the rest of us alone?
Max Baucus, the author of the plan is calling it a train wreck.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17...
Obama’s hometown paper, The Chicago Tribune is now recognizing the folly.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-...
The IPAB is a bureaucratic death panel. They will decide who shall receive benefits and who shall not. Even many democratic leaders are in recognition of this. http://www.lifenews.com/2013/08/08/democ...
When you have choice and are not coerced /forced you have choice and competition in your insurance/healthcare needs.
“… an attempt to achieve the good by physical force is a monstrous contradiction which negates morality at its root by destroying a man’s capacity to recognize the good, i.e., his capacity to value. Force invalidates and paralyzes a man’s judgment, demanding that he act against it, thus rendering him morally impotent. A value which one is forced to accept at the price of surrendering one’s mind, is not a value to anyone; the forcibly mindless can neither judge nor choose nor value. An attempt to achieve the good by force is like an attempt to provide a man with a picture gallery at the price of cutting out his eyes. Values cannot exist (cannot be valued) outside the full context of man’s life, needs, goals, and knowledge.” CUI “What Is Capitalism” p. 23.
O.A.

You're taking her view point on business men and applying it to humanity. The basis of her philosophy is individual rights and the freedom to choose how to live your life. If you want to lay around all day and not work a day in your life you should be free to do so, just be ready to accept the consequences of your actions.

Btw your statement, better results for less cost applies to every human endeavor. I'm sure Karl Marx would approve of better results and less cost in most situations. The flip side of that is not everyone wants to cut corners and save money. Some people want to take the long road just for the hell of it and that's terrific.

That's your justification? Most folks are ok with it so it's ok to force the ones who aren't? You can't say no to it, we can't opt out without going to jail. That's force, for everyone. No one was asked.

To be fair I see your point, we do have control over our government, we elected our leaders and not enough people raised their voices in protest when things like this happened. But your approving the tyranny of the majority. You're saying that personal judgement doesn't matter if the majority agrees it's good for you. There's no way any human should have to live their life. If I want to smoke and drink and party till I die that's my choice. It's my choice if I want to trust modern medicine. It's NOT my choice if I want to pay taxes, or pay for other people's medicine.