Agreed, but now that the Trump machine fell into the ditch by not doing their homework and finding all the dirt he had laying about, we are certain to have the Beast in office, so with her corrupt ass in place, both items are probably inevitable. The well has run dry and her scrawny little claws will continue to scratch the tit until it bleeds....

Two things happening in the U.S. Venezuala type of food supply issues and military shooting of civilians like in Kent State, would trigger some real shit like martial law. Food lobby, Farm lobby politicians respect the industry.

That is all true. But fear not, the Farm Lobby is probably as powerful as any special interest group, and they have a much a right to the pie as any other, in the current scheme. There is no way you will ever end the subsidies until ALL government "support" programs are eliminated. That will never happen under the current Imperials scheme, it is one of their primary weapons against the unwashed masses waking up and finding out there is life after largesse (or loot, as you will).

Well said. Are you really George Soros? I've looked over a bit of his philosophy gleaned from his study under Karl Popper that George calls Reflexivity. Based on acting without complete knowledge.

Methinks political crony capitalism acts not on knowledge at all but self-serving goals.

In the case of bio-fuels then what are the farmers to do with a removal of government subsidies of alcohol? Price of corn without it I wonder if it pay to farm corn at all? Would eliminate even "small" farmers who lease property as well as own who farm less than 5,000 acres perhaps. Annual data for the price of corn on January 1, is available and it seems to be the deal of the decade even compared to oil on the consumer side, but the production side? Efficiencies are STILL being honed what with adaptive to land quality application of fertilizers and chemicals coming from drones and such mapped to GPS coordinates and equipment automization.

Yes, you are relating a lot of the inconsistencies that exist, post government meddling. One reason I cannot subscribe to basic economic theory working in this morass they have created. Gas and oil do not trade at the levels equal to what they were, if we just factored in inflation, but also lacking accurate data is a handicap as well.

I use less money for pump gas today of my total income than ever. It really is a hell of a deal for me.

For the high maintenance folk who like to pay a fortune to live on a Florida beach or have hotel businesses on the beach, well they likely are trying to inspire the rest of us to do what they think will help them NOT lose their ass from inundations they think is explainably related to CO2 proportions in the atmosphere only.

Honolulu and other big cities, have terrible traffic congestion. Terrible until there was big rise in fuel costs then the gridlock eased. Increasing unemployment too eased the gridlock. Not rocket science methinks.

Housing foreclosures high iaround 2008 when after an oil price gouge people would drive rather than pay mortgages down. Apparently and astonishingly I heard from those across the street who lost their house that they could afford to pay for fuel for a car they could LIVE in but not the house. Told to me while chain smoking and later died of lung cancer. Go figure.

Well, then the price of oil is at rock bottom if you are using that framework, which also means that supply outstrips demand, and we have no shortage. Also other technologies and reseves have been discovered (such as the huge discovery in Alaska this week). With all those new options, and an ever increasing yield of technology, the ruse of using corn ethanol, and the negative return on it's "global warming" ability, makes the use invalid. If anything kept up with the rise of inflation (since the Imperial government does not report it with anything remotely resembling honesty) has a lot of issues in itself, in that wages then, have been in a net loss of 5-10% a year for 20 years. The imbalance in market forces because of government meddling has skewed everything to where reliable data is in very short supply.

Jan, but ADM is a conglomerate collection, like almost any large or super large company today. I wonder who was mixed into all those smaller companies, that then got blended together over the last 60 years or so, as it has been a similar trend in all other industries as well. If someone wanted to drive everything in a certain direction, and were one group, they could get control of a bunch of the smaller companies and as they get swallowed, they are now on the inside, place their own people and start making decisions. Long tern op, but ultimately control. Because the "independent from terrorists" is a sheeple driven populist idea. It was to make money, sell favors, and actually do more damage to our economy than the terrorists could.

This wasn't the government's idea. It was bought and paid for by Arthur Daniels Midland, a large company that produces corn for fuel (and knew perfectly well that doing so actually uses more petroleum than it replaces, even if we ignore the destruction of engines).

The eco-nuts are perfect dupes for the likes of ADM, since they see no enemies on the left.

And if gasoline costs at the pump had just met the rate of inflation wouldn't that cost be a lot higher now? The price of corn on January 1, is it as high now as the rate of inflation would have made it? I think some premises of the OP need another look for their being assumed to make a point that does not follow from the facts of fuel costs at the pump and food costs at the market where the producers sell it. The rest? Fix the two assumptions made first.

Exactly, there is no need for any subsidies at all, they are all payments to special interests by people who have no claim to the source of the payments. Both parties have played that game and continue it. Free market rules would regulate the production with no problems.

Agreed, but I do not believe we know just "who" who is. There is so much going on, but look at it all from high level and it all seems connected. Lends credence to some of the conspiracy theories.

Shhh. Don't let the secret out. Before I shrugged as biofuels business partner, I thrived on the guilt and stupidity of liberals. Then Obama moved such people to solar power (i.e. Solyndra).... Sigh.

nickursis- quite so.
It is easy to get sucked into discussing the technical details.

You say- 'It is almost as if someone WANTED '
I would delete the word 'almost'.
The green/environmentalists are tools of those who want more powerful central governments. The UN especially is a good source of pronouncements of these real objectives.

It sounds like $1 well spent.

Back when we first started using gasohol (as it was called back then) we had such a surplus of corn in the 1980's farm crisis that we started doing the ethanol thing as a way to utilize a commodity we had excess of and help boost our price. Now that the markets for corn products increased, it does make competition tougher. I still say ditch the mandates and tax subsidies to see if it is viable in the market.

Good for you.The ethanol thing I think was a scam to support Corn, as it is the primary source. It also screwed all the markets related to corn and it drifted it's skew into other commodities as well. People used to point to Brazil and their sugar ethanol, but it too has had issues.

I have had my weed whackers in sevreal times and every time the shop guy says get reg gas. The ethanol eats the seals and floats and clogs jets in small engines. In fact, 15% is max for cars and Oregon went to 20% last year supposedly, but I have not seen the labels change. I get reg gas for 3.59 and ethanol gas for 2.47, but I have switched to reg for small engines.

They did with a Virgin airline plane. Used coconut oil based jet fuel. Worked ok, but there were some gelling issues at extreme altitudes. Navy had used some in their fighters. Warm weather operations seem to pan out. Polar climates still needs some work.

As a former farmer, i like biofuels mainly as a way to stay away from foreign oil and it provided a market for the crops when we have surpluses. I don't buy into the crap about global warming anyway. I do not like the idea of using tax incentives for the fuels nor mandates to use them. In fact I burn waste cooking oil in my old army truck. No so much for any perceived environmental benefit, but because in the marketplace, its cheaper, and get roughly the same performance as petroleum diesel in the summer months.

I've never tried using gasoline with ethanol in my lawn mower or other small engines, and I'm never going to try it. I'll pay a few cents extra and never learn if ethanol would have damaged the engine.

Yeah. My brother had problems with ethanol in small engines, but I haven't.

Why can't we sue the EPA/DOT for this?

A sure way to sort out the propaganda from facts regarding "alternative energy sources" is to see if the government is involved in any way. Automatically, one may conclude that if private industry is not doing it's own independent development, something is fishy. To quote Rush Limbaugh, "until they can get a jumbo jet off the ground with alternative fuel, don't bother me".

Many other options do, and could exist. This whole thing stinks of some grand plan by someone to manipulate on a very large scale. Also, the friggin ethanol trashes every small engine and makes them that much worse in other pollutants. A negative return, but that is not unusual.

Lucky, I am not familiar with the science to dispute one way or the other, but I do believe the issue really is here that the government sold a boondoggle idea of "biofuels" being better for the "climate" and it was a lie then, and is a lie now, and has screwed the economy leading to rampant "undocumented" inflation (which they also lie about), and false figures. It is almost as if someone WANTED to both screw the economy (or benefit a special group = corn farmers) AND add to the CO2 content they were so adamant was a threat. So, why? And, what about all the fabrication (not that that is a new concept in our political system)?