There has been a lot of "mention" of the mythology of the 'golden mean'. The gullible and the irrational continue to repeat it, misleading those who don't know better, even though it has been thoroughly debunked,which did not "require measuring every living body living and dead". The mystical worst elements make no sense at all and have no cognitive content. They are not unknown puzzles of history, they are a subsequent mentality of mysticism subjectively grafted onto the history and false history along with illicit demands to take it seriously as legitimate hypotheses or worse.

The pyramids and Greek architecture of course had some "specific intent" in the design. So what? It doesn't support the mysticism. The history of ancient civilizations and the rudimentary development of their thought, including their early mathematics and its use in surveying and building, is very interesting and has been documented by scholars. But the actual ancient knowledge successfully developed is distinct from their primitive mysticism and religions, and no modern mysticism is worth anything in explaining any of it.

There is no evidence at all for such speculations. It is not as valid as any other hypothesis. A good deal of very interesting history of their mathematical development and how it was used is well known. Numerology is mysticism, it is not mathematics.

I will not argue the "Golden mean in human bodies" although I have heard mention of it. I do not consider it as something completely verifiable, because that would mean that someone had to measure every body living and dead to establish it as a constant verifiable fact. However, the measurements of the Pyramid, the angles of the ducts, the alignments of the structures, can be interpreted as indicating specific intent. They also can be interpreted as some dudes really cool idea of "style". Until some concrete evidence is found to connect them, it will remain a hypothesis. In fact, I just saw an article stating a papyrus was put on display showing the logs of the construction of the Great Pyramid. That does not conflict with the theory, in that they have already dated the face stones to that period. There are so many individual items that can be put into the puzzle, it can be viewed any one of a dozen ways.

Excuse me, you are correct. The meaning was that various unconnected "Facts" can be assembled into a working hypothesis. The use of mathematics MAY have been intentionally built into the Pyramid as well as other structures. That is not something that can be proved or disproved at this point, but can be hypothesized. It is a valid as any other hypothesis made on various facts that can be correlated to a specific model. The argument is that the numerology being stated here is "mysticism". The argument being debated is that use of numeric relationships that are not disputable, may indicate that an advanced civilization tried to pass down both knowledge and evidence of it's existence through the use of certain constant values in buildings and layouts of building. May be a whole lot of hogwash, but seems as valid as any other hypothesis.

Trite rant:
Archeologists typically don't "dig up some fossils"...that's what paleontologists do. Interpretation of artifacts found by archeologists should be based on the evidence available. Rational speculation based on that evidence is a far cry from the fiction of 'science fantasy'. Understanding the difference between those two ideas is an objective perspective.

Your repeated off-topic posts are filled with snide personal attacks in obvious violation of the guidelines. You admitted that you engage in "trite rants". You promote mysticism and do not respond to substantive comments. Rejecting your juvenile anti-intellectualism is not obnoxious. You are. It does not belong here. This is supposed to be a serious Ayn Rand forum, not a typical internet repository for juvenile behavior personally sniping at people. There are many other places you can go for that.

You are obnoxious

Give it up.

Your snide personal sniping, self-acknowledged "trite rants", and pronouncements of number mysticism are not "open discussion" with a mere "different view point". They are obnoxious diversions and don't belong here.

No. It's not about "drawing lines" between whatever it is you are trying to convey with floating symbols. Factual evidence and objective, conceptual understanding are not "formulating our own truth". Truth is correspondence of statements and abstract principles with the facts of reality, not subjective manipulation.

Science does not subjectively "pontificate"; mystics and Rationalists do. Archeologists and astronomers are objective and very careful in their conclusions. Mystics subjectively string together numbers in awe claiming great significance, and pronounce abstract unending decimals like the 'golden mean' to be intrinsically "represented in our bodies".

Ok, so you are drawing a line at the difference between A=A and If A=C, and C=B then A must = B? That is what I mean about making our own truths. No archeologist will tell you they can dig up some fossils and just pontificate what it means, they take bits and pieces, and add to previous knowledge to sometimes find a whole new truth. That can be supported by factual evidence. Therein is the difference.

We don't make our "own truths". Truth is correspondence with the facts. "True Objectivism" does not endlessly "listen" to Rationalistic cartoons and mysticism seeking to "formulate its own truth".

Science requires rationality and objectivity, it is not Rationalism, including variations copying astrology.

I think the issue here is defining what constitutes "rational, systemic investigation and conceptual explanation". I listened the Graham Hancoks book "Fingerprints of the Gods" and he presents a persuasive case for the relationships between the measurements of the Pyramid, celestial precession, and specific dates that align with specific physical items (such as the Sphinx, the various tunnels in the Pyramid, and the relations between various measurements. I find it interesting, and plausible. I posted a video where a guy took some of the data available suggesting the poles have shifted over time, and tha, given such changes, could align along a series of ancient monuments. I did not see anyone trying to persuade that it is fact, but that the various facts that are available, could certainly support a possible ancient, advanced civilization was around 12-15 thousand years ago. To me, mysticism is still saying that the Spinx was built by Khufu in the 25th century BC, when there is scientific evidence to date it to the 12,000 BC mark.

Than you. :)

I concur, the open discussion with differing view points can be an enlightening experience. If the reference to number manipulation is easy to do I would like to learn more. I am glad to hear you enjoyed Hancocks book. I find the ancient's abilities and knowledge astounding. I look forward to future discussion with you on this topic.

I never thought you were, you were making an impassioned statement of what you see as facts that coincide, he is making an impassioned statement that he sees it as mysticism. They are not compatible, but I think a true Objectivist trait is the ability to listen to all sides, and acquire data that we each have to formulate into our own truths. I appreciate feisty debate, sometimes it just gets a bit too feisty. If we cannot have true discussion with all points of view, we risk becoming like those that we do not agree with, and will seek to manipulate the discussion to our own point of view. I did find the video the guy put together as pretty interesting, if you can tie it to some substantial evidence of the pole shift. I have not found detailed facts for that yet, but there are a lot of "ancient cores suggest". I am sure there is more out there, and a lot of it is putting together a bunch of unrelated facts.

Nickursis, Thanks for the link as it is a discovery that builds the case for a lost ancient civilization that was likely connected before a cataclysmic event wiped them out. BTW sorry for the sarcastic
and trite rant with ewv. I was not trying to persuade you to believe in mysticism. If that's how it came across I apologize.

Some reasonable people seem to think that at least in some circumstances there is a causal connection, while recognizing that no one understands why and that there is much more to investigate. And there are always those who mix some reasonable thinking with nonsense.

But science is rational, systematic investigation and conceptual explanation. It is the opposite of mysticism, with or without the mystics trying to rationalize their beliefs by appealing to selected observation of the unexplained or imagined.

Whatever some mystic thinks about anything he is cognitively irrelevant. It is not "science to one and mysticism to another", only phenomena not yet properly conceptualized or explained, with rational people trying to understand and mystics off on the side spewing nonsense. The facts in reality, whether or not all causally related, are simply facts "waiting" to be understood. It is no more "science to some and mysticism to others" than any already scientifically explained phenomenon, such as radio transmission, with mystics jabbering about it.

I won't argue that point, I am inexperienced in acupuncture, and I also have heard of folks who did not respond. Maybe it is all something like a placebo effect. But is a good example of what may be mysticism to one, is science to another, because it has observable facts, cause and effect and predictable results. Again though, it is cloudy because it not consistent. Maybe the quacks skew the results? I mean, you can melt down a reactor even when you think you know how it works...

You said "Myths or so called mystical beliefs rediscovered and proven by science". Stop talking down to people with your snide comments.

"Observable phenomena"
Like a black hole or dark matter.
If you would please, In my comment I never said
Science proves mysticism.
Please read more carefully.

The Fibonacci sequence is just a sequence of integers in which each term is the sum of the previous two, with the provision that it starts with 0,1. So 0+1 =1 1+1=2 1+2=3 etc. to get 0,1,1,2,3,5,... It was first described around 1220 by Leonardo of Pisa (who was known as Fibonacci) in connection with a problem involving counting rabbits resulting from a pair of rabbits breeding a new pair.

There are endless such sequences in mathematics and there is nothing mysterious about them.

The mathematics of the 'golden mean' and related principles is abstract mathematical science. The attribution of any other significance is number mysticism, which has a long history of mythology breathlessly repeated over and over and has been thoroughly debunked. Rejecting it is not "getting excited". The "opposite sides" are reason versus mysticism. The latter does not belong here. It is not an equally valid alternative.

Science does not prove mysticism. It explains observable phenomena.

Sometimes historical events in ancient legends that are a mixture of primitive history and myth can be discovered by science, which separates the fact from the myth. A confirmation of an historical event to some minimal degree of detail does not prove the associated mythology or give it or it's method any credibility.