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  • Posted by GaryL 8 years, 3 months ago
    Ha! "We are from the government and we're here to help you". Much in line with the fact that a cop can tell you all sorts of lies but it is illegal for you to lie to them.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
      That's a fact and it's taught in police academy as an interrogation technique. Most common? Your buddy ratted you out. He's going to walk with a small fine. Meanwhile the buddy has been told all is ok and handcuffs removed is paraded past the first guys open door. He's told to wave and smile and show his cuffs are off but no talking.

      Works every time. First the rights are read again with attention to the part about an attorney. then the deal making starts. "Well you see there were four of us and two got away." Ah you see who was the ringleader." THat was Jack.?"

      "Jack Meyers?

      "Hoff his last name is Hoff."

      I sneaked the last one in.

      Followed by a hand written etc. with rights repeated.

      Supreme Court ruling as I recall. Nothing says you have to be truthful with a criminal.

      That was forty years ago... Now you only have to say. Suspicion of supporting terrorists. The rest was null and voided by Obimbo
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    • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
      Gary:
      That's the line Reagan said was the most fearful.
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      • Posted by GaryL 8 years, 3 months ago
        Yes Herb, I heard Reagan make that speech! It goes along with this whole mis truth about back ground checks for all gun buyers. Most folks don't have a problem with the checks to keep the guns out of the wrong hands. What most fail to realize is along with the background check of your worthiness to have a gun the government now has all the info about the gun you now have, as in Registration! Who has it, what it is, serial number and where it lives. Go Figure.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 3 months ago
    That's shocking! Or, should I better say, "nau-
    seating".How can they get away with that?--I
    guess there will eventually be a Supreme Court
    case. Except, the way things are going, will there
    still much longer be any due process?
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 8 years, 3 months ago
    Years ago, I believed the government was using unstable individuals in mass shootings...like the guy who opened up on a schoolyard with an AK-47. New laws immediately passed, banning the import and sale of military style weapons...laws that were written BEFORE the shooting, but were not getting sufficient support from legislators. The school shooting, conveniently, took care of that roadblock.

    If anyone believes this is beyond the capabilities of our government...just look at the Ruby Ridge standoff. That started with Federal agents convincing Randy Weaver to built sawed-off shotguns to feed his family. This is the same Randy Weaver who, previously, refused to be a government "mole" in the White Supremacist movement in Idaho. In the end, Weaver was found innocent of any and all charges stemming from that standoff...imagine that.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
    Way back in the 80's, I had two ATF agents who were customers at my camera shop. They didn't need to buy cameras or accessories as Uncle Sammy supplied those, but they'd occasionally buy a frame or a filter. Mostly they enjoyed hanging out and talking about photography. While I personally liked them in the sense that they were affable, they worried me on another level. They told me stories of their "adventures" and made everything seem like a joke. They would begin by talking to each other with, "Remember the time we..." I thought they might be drunk, but I failed to detect any tell-tale signs. I'm not trying to infer that all ATF agents were like these two, but it does make you wonder. In my day, we were given stories on TV and radio like "The FBI In Peace And War" which portrayed sober, dedicated agents, and not clownish hangabouts. Lately, the stories about the Secret Service horndogs, and others makes one give pause and say, "Whatinell is going on?"
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    • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
      The FBI series was propaganda supported by the FBI and Hoover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edga...
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
        I realize that now. I did like the Prokofiev march at the beginning of the show, though. But my point was that anyone who represented law enforcement when I was a youngster and well into young manhood was automatically given respect and for the most part acted in a serious and sober manner. Of course, what went on behind the scenes was not privy to the public so much as it is today.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
          I have pointed out to the few police people I know that I would never tell my kids to call the police for help unless it was the last option, now days. That was not the case when I was growing up.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
            Specifically, why?
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            • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
              Cops are now in the business chocking up tickets, arrests, and making problems, not solving them. I have seen documentaries where police have adopted new management techniques, which require measurements. As a result, they are reviewed on the number of traffic tickets, number of arrests, number of convictions etc.

              I have also heard from cops that the older generation was trained to be "peace officers" and then they became professionalized in the 60 and 70s. This meant more training in the law and an emphasis on arresting people who violate some law instead of keeping the peace.
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              • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
                Do you believe this to becoming the majority of police and police training or some sort of elite type police who are in the minority? The reason I ask is that I know a relatively large number of police who do not fit that scenario in the least They are located in California, Arizona, Texas and Florida. I do know a few who fit your description, but so far as I can see they are in the minority. There are some small towns who make their quotas with speed traps etc. but I've found them to be, so far, the great minority.
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                • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 3 months ago
                  I recommend a book titled "Left of Bang" by Patrick Van Horne and Jason A. Riley.

                  The book describes the 'Combat Hunter' program developed for the Marines and Police, but utilizing Police interactions and working back and forth between the two separate organizations.

                  It does a great deal to reveal the attitude and mind set training of today's Police.
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                  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
                    I'll put it on my list. Since I've been participating in the Gulch, I don't think I'll be around long enough to read all the books. Does keep me out of trouble, though -- almost.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
                  Same here. Speed Traps were common before the days of freeways and every town had them. Even after freeways. Interstate 40 from Arkansas heading East. Forrest City I think had radar vans with two or three chase cars. The major crime was driving without Arkansas plates. The police cars could only catch out of state plates the others were going to fast.The cops weren't paid well and they got fifty percent of the ticket. But police are what their public makes them.
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                  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
                    Really?
                    I can't think of anyone who wants police who are as described by DB & you and others. Of course, my local friends are mostly 50 to 75+ years of age with the exception of my sons and grandson. My son is a part-time firearms teacher when he's not being a software engineer, Scout leader, and house renovator. He interacts with local police to an extent. Can it be we are not seeing the forest for the trees?
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                    • Posted by khalling 8 years, 3 months ago
                      it is easy to see in the news, that the police have units of SWAT, learning paramilitary maneuvers, go through de-sensitization training, etc. you just have to open your eyes. Why would we ever agree to civil asset forfeiture? yet it is real and the police take more money than all theft combined each year.
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                      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
                        YUCK!
                        Not my USA.
                        I knew it was gone, but didn't realize how far.
                        I guess the American Experiment is almost over.
                        Can something this far gone be turned around?
                        Meet me in 20 years. I'll send you a message via ectoplasm.
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                        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
                          Sure anything can be turned around but first you have to identify Group III participants.

                          Group I Righteous
                          Group II Debaters

                          That's the couch potato groups. One is interested in preaching be they secular or religious the other in debating not matter which side not for converts but for points.

                          Group III those who get off their ass and fix the problem then go on to something else While Group I and Group II ever the my way or the highway purists are still stuck in the mud and mire.

                          Bear in mind after Group I and Group II AFTER Group III has fixed the problem will up to preach and debate how it was done and to take credit.

                          Once identified I just shine them on. That's the groups AR was referring to when she said turn your back and walk away.
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                          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
                            Hooray for G3.
                            Where are they? We did stuff like that in the 70's. Made the local TV once. Did you ever hear about us? I didn't think so. Not trying to be negative but G3 would require much dedication, organization and talented people willing to put forth the effort.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 3 months ago
    I think a broader investigation into the DOJ dealings across the board would reveal just how much worse the situation is. An implement that I regard as entirely unconstitutional is the Grand Jury, where the accused is not allowed to present a defense (the clever logic there is that you don't need a defense when you haven't been charged yet). and a finding that an indictment is proper assures conviction.

    Judges are all too often obsessed with precedent, so creating a new excuse for prosecution almost guarantees the bench is biased toward the prosecution, since the judge wants to be the first to convict. Prosecutors make their careers on a high percentage of convictions, so sometimes charges aren't filed because the accused is too well connected, and other cases are like a kangaroo court, where the accused is swiftly railroaded.

    Leona Helmsley was all too open about her contention that "laws are for little people." The powerful and well connected are far more likely to avoid a conviction than Joe six pack. The farther up the political food chain, the more criminal license you're granted.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
      Judges elected with one vote because of no opposition are the worst. Citizens should remember that jury duty is a chance to vote on a law again. First at the ballot box and second in the jury box. Judge can't dictate a juror vote. If, for example it was an income tax evasion case auto matric Not Guilty. it's a fascist tax and I'm anti-fascist. Judge is a misnomer. The Jurry is the Judge. the judge is a referee. Read up on Fully Informed Jury . if the judge refuses to explain the law Not Guilty. Third way to vote is for men only until the existing draft law is put back into use. Don't enlist or do enlist for military service. Or get one of the easy student loans and get a deferment. for four years. I'm career military and anti draft. I don't believe in cannon fodder. If you are offered nothing then vote for nothing by not voting. lots of choices but those all require active participation. Nothing worse than a wasted vote or one that's cast when all the choices stink. That means you accept medocrity and through that end uip with police that are poorly trained and city officials who are practicing tro be God.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 3 months ago
    It's disgraceful. I don't get how they even get away with it. I imagine as an employer if I asked W-2 employees to do something illegal, I would be committing a crime. The story about the man they hired to break the law was horrible. Everyone who was involved in hiring and managing him who knew should be charged with the crime of hiring someone else to commit a crime.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 3 months ago
    Not at all surprised...how else would idiots prove they are not idiots...mfg success...that's how.

    Sounds like a inferior version of Project Monarch.
    read: The Trans-formation of America by Cathy O'Brien
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  • Posted by ArtIficiarius 8 years, 3 months ago
    Have you (anyone) ever visited the ATF DC HQ Building?
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    • Posted by ArtIficiarius 8 years, 3 months ago
      It seems to me that the principle that The Law should be understandable is violated particularly by the mess that is the collection of "state" laws on firearms. Formal elaboration on the Second Amendment, anyone?
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      • Posted by khalling 8 years, 3 months ago
        your rights do not come from the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. They are just recognized-but not in their entirety
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
          thanks for the assist I should have pounded that point as well.

          The Principle is Government has NO rights unless specifically granted in detail. Given the dumbed down population versus the apparant superior literacy of the 1700s that point needs mentioning ....and often.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
        Wrong. It is the principle of rights not granted that would be and is being violated. The Federal Governments rights stop with the second amendment and it's applications which they have defined (the court) as the right to carry for self protection and the right to have state militias. The only right the feds have is setting for the regulations for any military and the right to federalize in exchange for the cost of equipping. The rest is none of their business. 9th and 10th amendments rule the feds may NOT imagine that which is not clearly granted and may NOT legally ignore the Constitution.

        Which means they have usurped it and we're no longer under the Constitution

        Which means the military's oath of office is the next step. Martial law and courts martial for all violaters...starting with the President.

        You can cherry pick all you want but it's only wishful thinking not fact.

        The State Laws are not collective they are separate intentionally.

        Where did you find that Principle of law? google didn't help me and it certainly doesn't apply else why have lawyers?

        Always look for the Constitutional authorization and always start with the 9th and 10th amendments. Rights not granted do not exist and the Supreme Court not visiting whatever portion is not an excuse to violate that rule. It's a crime.
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        • Posted by ArtIficiarius 8 years, 3 months ago
          Try the Void-for-Vagueness Doctrine, and possibly the 14th Amendment.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
            How does the 14th apply. What citizen rights are violated by upholding their rights? Where in the Constitution is the 'Void For Vagueness Doctrine. That's meaningless. What do you consider vague." Fifty states with fifty different positions? Nothing vague about rights not granted do not exist. It applies to states as well as the federal level. You will have to explain all of that with cites and sources. That's the frame. Your claim your job to support it.

            Actually I know the answer I've used that myself to toss 52 of 53 counts in a jury trial. I just want to see if you know and by the way it's 5th and 14th amendments. Remember Rand if a contradiction check your premises... so far one of yours ...is....incorrect or at least not sufficiently supported.
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            • Posted by ArtIficiarius 8 years, 3 months ago
              I am not a lawyer. I do not even hold a law degree. I'm glad to bow to your experience and wisdom. Please show me the way.
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
                Number One never say 'it seems to me' it casts you as one of the dark side from Atlas Shrugged.

                OK Void for Vagueness applies in any jurisdiction that has a law that cannot be understood by the average citizen. Something Pelosillyni would write.or say for example.

                But it only applies with that jurisdiction.

                We'll use states as an example.

                Each of the fifty states in the situation described have the right, given to them by their own citizens to write a certain type of law. the result is fifty different laws all legal and none Vague but if taken as a whole that situation probably would arise. .It won't because the Federal Government has no rights granted.beyond military formations and the Supreme Court ruling that self defense is not excluded. Why not. The federal government has no rights granted

                Within any of the states one set of those laws may qualify but only within that one single state.

                The bonus is the Supreme Court made the use of individually owned by citizens weapons bullet proof by excluding the federal government from the first phrase and up holding rights not granted.

                Justice is served with a bonus and dessert.

                As for the other 49 states? Cross the line their laws apply not those of your home state.

                The fact that you have a weapon registered and licensed or whatever comes under full faith and credit since as a nation self defense is a right retained by citizens, not granted and it's been reviewed and upheld by SCOTUS. It does not give you license to break laws of other states.

                Does it apply in the other states? Depends on agreements between states.

                Opinions of failed ham'n'egger shysters not with standing.

                No vagueness no mess no mish mash - except at the federal level where all is liver mush.

                ConLaw and State Laws was a required subject in police academy. The answer was written. We also did State/local and International law. If one over riding law were applied it would require Federal carry permits.
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