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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It is true my reply didn't address most of what you wrote. I wasn't trying to give you the brush off - sorry if you took it that way. Since this isn't a religious forum, when the subject comes up I do my best to just address what I believe to be misconceptions or misstatements about what Christianity is and leave it at that. Your point was "death penalty = sin" in Christian morality. I only wanted to reply to that point, and I hoped to demonstrate this isn't the case. What you brought out in your longer explanation didn't really reinforce your position, IMO. You showed there has back and forth attitude changes by prominent people. If it is sin, why the wavering? Also, I don't understand how you can hold that the Catholic Church teaches the death penalty is sin and then bring out a quote from the Catholic Catechism that says it is permissible in certain cases. I could have gone there in my original reply, but I think the two of us may have been the only ones interested in that discussion and it would have come off like two people having a religious argument, which I don't intend to do. I just wanted to show it wasn't really reasonable to say that Christianity opposes capital punishment based on what we see in the Bible. No disrespect intended to you with the lack of addressing what men may have thought later on. I'm just keeping my focus on the text of the book.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Respectfully, I disagree. The majority of your argument relies solely on the authority of the Catholic Church to interpret doctrine. If one rejects such authority, the statements of officials of the Catholic Church become - respectfully - the statements of ordinary men rather than statements from the ordained ministers of God.

    I applaud you for standing up for your beliefs - please don't misinterpret me. I just don't happen to agree with either the logical assertions being made nor do I accept the authority of the Catholic Church (and apparently neither does Lionel). What we have agreed on is the authority of the Bible, but not the interpretation thereof. Thus an impasse.
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    • Robbie53024 replied 10 years, 2 months ago
  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The original question was about how to evaluate the morality of death and its agents. I was only outlining the considerations to be taken into account and the opposing viewpoints on the matter. My comments were neither a reflection on dog-lovers or non-dog lovers except to note that their motivations will likely cause their actions to be evaluated very differently by others.

    To be an Objectivist (not my claim BTW) is to be able to study out an argument and reasonably describe it rather than jump to conclusions based on emotional attachment to ideology.
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  • Posted by amagi 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Please, blarman, don't sound like an objectivist
    beginner. The man doubtfully held his dog in
    higher regard' than himself. When we love somebody or something, we do all we can for them. He underestimated the currents; accidents
    happen. By the way, those people I have met
    who are pet lovers, tend to be nicer than others,
    more gracious and hospitable - like their souls
    are warmer.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Agreed. It is interesting to look back on the legal precedents and systemic changes that have taken place in the past 300 years. One can spend entire careers looking at the prominent decisions in legal history and debating them. Which might be fun - in their own individual threads. ;)
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I hesitate to label the deterrent effect as my primary advocacy for the consistency of capital punishment with natural law, but I will acknowledge that deterrent is part of the reason for law in the first place. If there is no punishment for a certain action, why should one fear such a choice in the first place? We can label it incentive vs disincentive if we want, but really, it is all about trying to persuade every member of society to live by the same rules. The only reason punishments exist (except as part of the natural order) is to explicitly define specific actions that run contrary to the goals of society. If we go back to value and how it applies to influencing decision-making, deterrent only becomes effective when the punishment for a given crime exceeds the benefits for committing such. The problem with murder in this regard (as in the case of rape) is how does one economically price such an act - and further how many people could pay back such a cost so incurred? Thus one of the fundamental quandaries related to the sentencing for murder.

    As for cost efficiency, you'll go south in a hurry if you go there because the current legal system is an endless maze of appeals and definitions of what constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment". Because of this legal morass, it is far more economical to pay $30,000+ a year (see http://www.vera.org/sites/default/files/...) for the life of the convict than the multiple millions it takes to exhaust the appeals process and eventually carry out the sentence. To me, this isn't as much a remark on the efficacy of capital punishment as it is on the non-efficacy of the criminal justice system itself, as well as a general commentary on society as a whole. :S
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Only if one totally disregards the concept of justice and responsibility for one's own actions. The murderer chose his course and is being rewarded with the fruits of his labors. The executioner is merely carrying out the justice dictated by the law and granting the offender his request. To equate those two functions to me is a grave disservice to the concept of justice and law itself.

    You are welcome and have the right to hold to that philosophy. I can not reconcile the advocated position with either logic or theology and thereby politely decline.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "If you keep the moral code simple, such as it is morally right to pursue your values, then it can be an absolute morality."

    Absolute implies that it is not subject to the whims of any one person - that it is exterior to the subject. Morality may either be absolute (principles that apply to anyone and everyone) or it may be personal. This is one of the age-old fundamental questions of philosophy: the belief in the presence (or absence) of an absolute or universal moral code.

    I perceive the situation thus: A) the posited existence of an absolute morality independent of any individual, B) the individual's perception/understanding of such a morality and C) the choice whether or not to adhere to it - all steps on a ladder. Alternately thus: existence, comprehension of existence, knowledge of scope and detail, and then choice to obey or disregard.

    If one rejects the notion of universal morality, one immediately has decided that only moral relativism applies. The problem in this is that one is explicitly acknowledging factors that totally undermine society. Humanity depends on community/society for existence, so based on the evidence of society itself, I reject the idea of the absence of universal morality.

    If one acknowledges the concept of universal morality, then comes the challenge of attempting to define it. Here is where the realm of a "personal" morality (as most people think of it) comes into play, but in reality it is not a change to the morality, but rather one's subjective interpretation of such. We do not actually have the power to define that morality (the laws of choice and consequence are outside our realm of control at the time being) and it exists independent of any given individual. All we can do is attempt to ascertain to the best of our knowledge, experience and learning what is entailed in this absolute morality. That is why there are hundreds of theologies and moral philosophies present in humanity - there is a lack of agreement on (and especially adherence to) what would comprise that single absolute morality (assuming of course that it exists).

    In the case of the man and his dog, the man - under his personal interpretation of morality - determined that the risk of saving the dog (even at the cost of his own life) was a worthy transaction. That was a personal choice. Does it violate any kind of universal morality? I don't have any idea, and unless the man somehow reports to us on the consequences of his decision, I don't know that we can know with any certainty!
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Romans is New Testament.
    The quote from Genesis predates even the OT Law of Moses, as it was given in the time of Noah. The Bible is clear and consistent on the capital punishment issue before the OT Law, during the OT Law, and after the OT Law.
    The Apostle Paul even is seen saying in Acts 25 "I am standing before Caesar’s tribunal, where I ought to be tried. I have done no wrong to the Jews, as you also very well know. If, then, I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar."
    So, you can infer from his statement that though he did not believe he did anything worthy of death, he agreed in principle that there were actions that DID merit this punishment.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You asked - from US Catholic Update:

    The Catholic bishops of the United States have provided careful guidance about this difficult issue, applying the teaching of the universal Church to our American culture. Along with the leadership assemblies of many Churches (for example. American Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians), the U.S. bishops have expressed their opposition to the death penalty. First articulated in 1974, the bishops' position is explained in a 1980 statement, Capital Punishment. Individual bishops and state conferences of bishops have repeated in numerous teachings their opposition to the death penalty.

    In their 1980 statement, the bishops begin by noting that punishment, "since it involves the deliberate infliction of evil on another," must be justifiable. They acknowledge that the Christian tradition has for a long time recognized a government's right to protect its citizens by using the death penalty in some serious situations. The bishops ask, however, if capital punishment is still justifiable in the present circumstances in the United States.

    In this context, the bishops enter the debate about deterrence and retribution. They acknowledge that capital punishment certainly prevents the criminal from committing more crimes, yet question whether it prevents others from doing so. Similarly, concerning retribution, the bishops support the arguments against death as an appropriate form of punishment. The bishops add that reform is a third reason given to justify punishment, but it clearly does not apply in the case of capital punishment. And so they affirm: "We believe that in the conditions of contemporary American society, the legitimate purposes of punishment do not justify the imposition of the death penalty."

    As with the debate in our wider society, it is important to move behind the discussion of deterrence and retribution to get to the heart of the bishops' position. The statement does just that, by discussing four related values that would be promoted by the abolition of the death penalty.

    First, "abolition sends a message that we can break the cycle of violence, that we need not take life for life, that we can envisage more humane and more hopeful and effective responses to the growth of violent crime." The bishops recognize that crime is rooted in the complex reality of contemporary society, including those "social conditions of poverty and injustice which often provide the breeding grounds for serious crime." More attention should go to correcting the root causes of crime than to enlarging death row.

    Second, "abolition of capital punishment is also a manifestation of our belief in the unique worth and dignity of each person from the moment of conception, a creature made in the image and likeness of God." This belief, rooted in Scripture and consistently expressed in the social teach- ings of the Church, applies to all people, including those who have taken life.

    Third, "abolition of the death penalty is further testimony to our conviction, a conviction which we share with the Judaic and Islamic traditions, that God is indeed the Lord of life." And so human life in all its stages is sacred, and human beings are called to care for life, that is, to exercise good stewardship and not absolute control. The bishops recognize that abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty are not the same issue, but they each point to the same fundamental value: safeguarding the sanctity of life.

    Fourth, "we believe that abolition of the death penalty is most consonant with the example of Jesus." In many ways this final point summarizes the other three: the God revealed in the life of Jesus is a God of forgiveness and redemption, of love and compassion—in a word, a God of life. The heart of the bishops' position on the death penalty, then, is found in the gospel.

    Gut-level reactions may cry out for vengeance, but Jesus' example in the Gospels invites all to develop a new and different attitude toward violence. The bishops encourage us to embody Jesus' message in practical and civic decisions.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Old Testament, my friend. That all changes in the Gospels - which is the prime basis for the Catholic church (if not all Christianity).

    The Bible is often mentioned in debates about the death penalty. Supporters quote the Exodus passage, eye for eye, while opponents appeal to Ezekiel (33:11): "As I live, says the Lord God, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked man, but rather in the wicked man's conversion, that he may live." In fact, such use of the Bible (finding a "proof text" to affirm one's point of view) is inappropriate.

    Scripture scholars teach us to understand the Bible (and its individual books) in historical context: when it was written and why. Thus considered, there is an ambivalence about capital punishment in the Scriptures.

    Clearly, the Hebrew Scriptures allowed the death penalty (for a much longer list of offenses than our society would be comfortable with—for example, striking or cursing a parent, adultery, idolatry). Yet, as we see in Ezekiel and many other passages, there is also an attempt to limit violence and to stress mercy. In the Christian Scriptures, Jesus' life and teachings (see the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:1-7:29) focus on mercy, reconciliation and redemption. (It may also be instructive to recall that Jesus' death was itself an application of the death penalty.) The basic thrust of the Gospels supports opposition to the death penalty.

    Indeed, the early Church (for example, in the writings of Clement of Rome [died 101 A.D.] and Justin Martyr [d. 165]) generally found taking human life to be incompatible with the gospel. Christians were not to participate in capital punishment. Later, after Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire, opposition to the death penalty declined. Augustine recognized the death penalty as a means of deterring the wicked and protecting the innocent. In the Middle Ages, Thomas Aquinas reaffirmed this position.
    The new Catechism of the Catholic Church reflects this tradition, stating that the death penalty is possible in cases of extreme gravity. However, the Catechism adds: "If bloodless means [that is, other than killing] are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person" (#2267). Clearly, then, the bishops' opposition to the death penalty is in accord with universal Church teaching.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is little deterrence in the death penalty. It is merely a means to eradicate someone who has demonstrated that they have no claim on the resources required to live.
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Genesis 9: “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man."

    Romans 13: "...rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil."

    That right there is the Christian justification FOR capital punishment.
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I've noticed the same correlation between religion and the death penalty, and for the most part I like your explanation of it.

    I also like the way you think of the death penalty, as a deterrent. Obviously it isn't going to stop all murders, I doubt anything really will, but it keeps rational people from committing murder. Or I should say borderline rational, as a mostly rational person very seldom contemplates going through with murder.

    I don't think the death penalty really deters too many people though. I don't have a problem with death, I rarely talk about capital punishment cause it isn't very interesting to me. But I do like cost efficency, and while I'm not sure how much it costs to hand out a death sentence, I would say in most cases it would be more productive to reach an agreement with the murderer. I know it sounds ludicrous, but unless the person is full on insane I think you could find a use for him.

    I'm not sure, maybe I'll think about it more and try to solidify my line of thought.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Let's see, a convicted prisoner is alive one minute, and another minute is dead. Not from natural, accidental, nor self-inflicted (although they consider suicide murder as well) causes, so pretty much murder.
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If you keep the moral code simple, such as it is morally right to pursue your values, then it can be an absolute morality.

    I've heard objectivists say that Rand bridged the is-ought gap because a human can have no value without life, therefore the highest value has to be the individuals life, with anything that benefits that life being morally valuable. Humans ought to value their lives above all else because without their livesnothing has value.

    This is still taking into account the man who would die to save his dog or his country. He values his life primarily, but his life would lose most if not all of its value without freedom or his dog. He doesn't sacrifice himself, he trades his life for the things that are most valuable to the type of life he wants.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So the Catholic Church considers capital punishment equivalent to murder? I would be interested in the Biblical justification for such a policy in order to understand the rationale, as it doesn't seem to make sense.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree. What I found, however, is that I haven't found any examples of such outside the Gulch (though please understand that I am not discounting the possibility that some exist). I think that says a lot for the members of the Gulch - they actually think about their positions rather than just regurgitate what they get from friends/family/media/etc.
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