Black mobs terrorize Victoria’s Secret shoppers

Posted by lukenbocker 10 years, 8 months ago to News
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I think we need to stop naming kids DaQuan and ShaT'qua. We also need to spend more time with our kids and love them and make sure that God and Jesus are first in our lives.
SOURCE URL: http://www.wnd.com/2014/02/black-mobs-terrorize-victorias-secret-shoppers/


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  • Posted by richrobinson 10 years, 8 months ago
    The bigger issue is why these stories are not being widely reported. There appears to be a strategy to suppress stories about black crime especially if it is black on white crime.
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    • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
      Hi Rich, I'd like a answer. Are Christians unwelcome in the gulch? I'm an adult, if this the case I want know.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
        Hi, star - there are some here who are viciously atheist, and will attack your faith. Most are reasonable and rational and are willing to debate intelligently and thoughtfully. The moderators here are very lenient in what they allow, so if you can't take sharp elbows, you might find this forum uncomfortable.
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        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago
          Vicious? Hmmm. I think yesterday LS clearly stated she was done debating and instead peoole kept at her including insulting her boys. The there is no morality without faith in God- now there's a very sharp elbow and delivered on a site where an Objectivist should think they would be free from thinking like that.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
            You are likely commenting on some of those whom I no longer bother to read. So the viciousness can come from multiple directions. I don't think that you or anyone else here, would say that I have been other than rational (sometimes snarky, but never vicious).
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            • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago
              nope-wasn't directed at you. I can't get any of you to acknowledge that at times the discussion has become overwhelming to Objectivists though. Atlas store there is a book offered by Mark Henderson (mark in the gulch, who is a producer) called The Soul of Atlas. btw, he is the stepson of John Aglialoro. The premise of the book was to find where Christians and Objectivism could meet. That premise can be debated, but it seems more productive of a discussion to me than how it devolved in this post, and shows the site is welcoming to people of faith.
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      • Posted by richrobinson 10 years, 8 months ago
        Hi Star. Sorry for the delay in answering. I believe that Christians are welcome in the Gulch. My wife has a very strong faith while I do not and we make it work. I think those with a strong faith can still follow objectivist principles. I responded to what I thought was the more direct point that this article made. It is clear that black on white crime is not being reported in the news. I welcome other opinions.
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        • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
          Thanks Rich. I have to say that I have always felt free to participate in any and all discussions until and most especial last night when some pointedly told all Christians that they were not welcome here in the gulch.

          I think such prejudice is so far over the top to not be tolerated. No matter how I might disagree with some people on some issues, I would never go so far and I felt that it needed cleared up. Thank you.
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          • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 8 months ago
            I thought I must have missed something because I never saw that LS demanded you leave. She just asked why Christians would want to be there. It appears many here seem to think that you can only be moral if your god fearing. That takes all responsibility for your own actions away from you. It means that you are only moral because god is forcing you to be. Many that attacked LS didn't have a reasoned argument. Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof Merriam-Webster Dictionary
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            • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 8 months ago
              I gave you a point because Christians and non Christians are responsible for their own behavior even if you are saved, you sin. We are all human.
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am disagreeing with you only on the matter of what the Protestant position is on Original Sin. You can argue the Original Sin doctrine is not true, and I won't disagree, but it's not the point. You can say that Calvin and Luther and Protestants in general say "read the Bible", and I won't disagree, but it's not the point. You can say the Wiki is wrong on the Catholic view of Original Sin because it is inconsistent with their view of infant baptism. I'd argue Wikipedia's got the situation explained right and their explanation merely exposes the inconsistency you raise, but it's not the point. None of this changes what the Protestant position on Original Sin in fact is. I really think you've got a misunderstanding here.
    http://sbcheritage.com/southern-baptists...
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    • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 8 months ago
      I have gone to protestant churches for more than 45 years and was never taught that man is born with sin. Maybe there are a few that teach that now or did over a hundred years ago but that is not a brush you can paint protestants with.
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      • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 8 months ago
        Well, fair enough! I think we're both in the end making the same reply to dbhalling that he shouldn't be so quick to label Original Sin teaching as "Christianity", and statements to the contrary as "nice, but not Christianity".
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        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_si...

          it is a concept unique to Christianity. I can't help it that your church never discusses it, but it is primary to to Christianity. Judaism does not teach "inherited sin". You can explain it in how many other ways and terms you like-but it is still a component of uniqueness to the Christian faith-
          and it is philosophically the opposite of Objectivism. what's the point of baptism then? seriously, up is down
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          • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 8 months ago
            I criticize nobody for linking Original Sin with particular denominations, for many teach it. There are, however, others that are not nuanced about this at all - they outright reject it. I provided a link to one that does just that. To say essentially "sorry - you're all the same - you have to believe in original sin or you're not Christian - I don't care how much you protest" is to show an unwillingness to honestly portray the viewpoint of these denominations - it's amounts to dishonest character assassination. Do not say it is never discussed. It is discussed in the context of "this is a false doctrine we must put an end to."
            To the baptism question, it is simply a matter of whose sins are being forgiven. Original Sin charges everyone, even an infant, with the sin of Adam. That's whose sins are being removed under that doctrine. It is an entirely different matter to say one is baptised to deal with their own sins, whose guilt is carried because that individual knew the difference between right and wrong and chose the wrong.
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            • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago
              I was raised a Presbyterian. We never discussed original sin. However, I find it interesting that Christianity can accept some tenets of the faith and reject others without looking at the faith as a whole and asking about it's basic beginnings. There should be a theme of acceptance or rejection. In Objectivism, in order to claim you are an Objectivist, you need to accept the basic premises of the philosophy.
              Jesus dying for everyone's sins is the opposite of Objectivist philosophy. So I'm always scratching my head that Christians are ok with other parts of Objectivism. Because those other parts are based on the fact you would not value such sacrifices.But, everyone can do and think as they will. The contradictions will be pointed out in here.
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              • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 8 months ago
                I might be able to shed some light on this. Your statements presume Christianity started out with the Original Sin doctrine, and we now have modern denominations rejecting it. There is an alternative explanation: Original Sin wasn't there in the beginning - it got tacked on later as an opinion of men that started carrying more weight than it ought. When denominations reject it, they don't believe they're rejecting some core tenet. They reject it because they recognize it as error committed by men, unsupported by the Bible itself. To them, the Bible carries more weight than a "well, Augustine said..."
                To the rest of your comments, I'll leave that for another day should the opportunity present itself. I really don't come on here to talk about the subject. I just have to speak up when I think Christianity is being misrepresented.
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          • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 8 months ago
            Yeah that is according to Wikipedia. I have been to Evangelical, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Non Denominational and Seventh Day Adventist churches and have close friends from all that I mentioned, that is not taught. The only place I ever came acrossed it was a Catholic Sister -in-law that told me about it after she lost her baby who was not Baptized.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's been 3 against one all day in here. Stop taking everything so personal...I'm shielding arrows!
    This is the Gulch... where objectivism is welcome and should be the norm. Again I ask why non objectivist or religious ones want to spend time in here...or why they're surprised that there are actually objectivists in here.
    What a waste of day. I things to do.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The oath is taken by all in the gulch... if you bring god into the gulch then you're breaking the oath. A is A.
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    • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
      "I swear by my life and my love of it, that I'll never live for the sake of another man, or ask another man to live for mine." that oath? I fail to see where that banned Christians from the Gulch. Nowhere in that oath does it say that only non believers can be Objectivists. I see no inconsistencies between Christianity AND Objectivism.
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      • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
        A is A is algebra, not a oath. It also does not reject religion.
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        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago
          A is A is a logic premise. It is the basis for things are knowable. That is a contradiction with religion. You are free to reject that premise in making an exception for God but you cannot deny the contradiction. Things got heated in the thread when the poster said they were going to pray for someone to come to God. If you could see it from an objectivist 's perspective, its quite condesending. After all they are trying to live a moral life without religion. It is reasonable to assume on a site promoting AR 's ideas and AS, you wouldnt have to field comments like Ill pray for you (and your ignorance) Its insulting. There have been many lively discussions on faith in here, so Im not sure where you get the idea christians aren 't welcome, however when faith shows up in a post it will get criticized and no one should be surprised by that. I think you 'll find this Objectivist site is much more tolerant in discussing faith than all the other O forums.
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          • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 8 months ago
            Great points now look at it from another point of view. Why do we pray for people? We want them to be ok, we want them to find peace. It's all good intentions. If someone used it as sarcasm shame on them Noone can know if it was intended to be sarcasm except the person that said it. You can't see it or touch it or hear it even if they take the oath.
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            • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago
              but if you say "I'll pray for you to come to God, so therefore you can lead moral lives and be saved..." that is insulting to someone not of faith. How is that any different than me saying to you, "praying is stupid." Now if I said, "praying is irrational" you'd probably agree within the context of A is A. You might say, praying is part of the basis of my faith and I agree faith cannot be explained because we can't completely know it or we will never be able to know it. We can discuss in that realm-but telling someone they are praying for people they do not know, whose morality they cannot discern, will raise the ire of the Objectivist. LS was very clear that she was good, did not need peace and was firm in her moral foundations. but people kept pushing.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
      You take AR's perspective at face value without critically thinking what it means. I say think for yourself. I see no inconsistency with believing in a God.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
      Uhh... God is already IN the Gulch. It's His Gulch.
      So what? John Galt is the only person who can be a liar and a cheat?

      Besides which, nothing in the oath bars religious belief, including a belief in God, or worship of God.
      The oath is to not live for another MAN'S sake. Doesn't say anything about not living for one's OWN sake.

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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
    While I certainly am not going to object to God and Jesus, that isn't the only way to bring the morality of these thugs more into line with what is commonly accepted as decent civilized behavior.
    The fact that they act this way, I think goes to prove my "baddest ass on the block" theory. Since they have not had a religious foundation instilled, and they have been taught not to fear the legal system, they adopt a hierarchy of power. And there is always someone at the top. Often that person is challenged and either remains victorious, in which the challenger is often dead, or loses, in which case the former BAOTB is almost assuredly dead.
    What we need is a resurgence of morality teaching in these communities. Unfortunately, the internal leadership of those communities is supported in subverting that objective in order to maintain power. And those who might have influence, such as Bill Cosby, are marginalized when they do speak up. And others such as Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson, Walter Williams, Herman Cain, Alan Keyes, etc., etc., etc. are vilely vilified.
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    • -1
      Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 8 months ago
      A massive part of that problem is the war on drugs. It's difficult to instill any values at all into a population that is constantly being harassed and targeted for imprisonment by law enforcement, which takes fathers out of their homes and locks them away for ten years, thus ripping apart the social structure of their families, their neighborhoods, and their communities, creating a social situation in which the mothers have no choice but to become the sole economic provider for their children, and are forced to lean on the state for financial support. Some of the youth are lucky, and manage to avoid that type of environment, but it typically is only a matter of luck, and nothing more. If we want to solve the problem of violence and poverty in the black community, we need to recognize that their situation is not their own doing, but the direct result of government oppression beating them down, and the only way to fix it is to end the war on drugs.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
        What a load...

        Nobody has to do drugs, nobody needs to do drugs.

        The illegality of drugs didn't kill Hoffman, or Belushi, or Ledger. They were all rich and easily able to obtain drugs; the highest quality drugs.
        They had no reason to DO drugs.

        You're implying that the people in this neighborhood are inherently drug addicts. That none of them could have been taught, as their grandparents were taught, to work and be responsible for their lives.

        The mothers become the sole economic provider in large part because of the artificial culture that took away the traditional morality of such neighborhoods. The morality that dictated that a man must work and support his family, that he must not do drugs.

        Why are they targeted for imprisonment? Because they break the law. The law doesn't say they can't have food or shelter or a job. The law says they can't use or distribute drugs. Under those circumstances, it's REAL easy to stay out of jail.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 8 months ago
        I agree with everything you say, except I think "no choice" and "forced" are too extreme. You can say we make it hard for them, but don't actually "force" people to lean on the state. Some people find a way out of it, despite the bad policy.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
        You won't get me to agree that the breakdown of the family (primarily within the black community) is solely a function of the effects of the war on drugs.
        That said, I think that the war on drugs has been a foolish pursuit, and is a terrible waste of resources. As are all instances of prohibition based on a moral basis.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
    Black on white crime is hardly surprising. Remember decades ago when blacks were treated with contempt by many whites, and how they were portrayed in the media, from movies to newspapers?

    Look at how whites, particularly white males, are treated in the modern media, from commercials to tv and movies. Weak, impotent, cowardly, foolish, backward and out-of-touch.

    Back in the 1980s, a common attribution applied to Japanese men was their taste for, not just white, but blonde women. The explanation sometimes given was their attempt to regain their potency and dominance by possessing the women of those who emasculated them.

    This was explained in Anthro 101, and is embodied in the quote misattributed to Ghengis Khan and Atilla the Hun;
    the great leader is sitting among his warriors (NOT soldiers) and the question comes up as to what is best in life. One asserts that the open steppes, the wind in your face, and a falcon to stir up the hares is best.

    The Khan or Hun responds that no, what is best in life is to drive your enemy before you; to destroy his works, to possess his woman before him.

    Like it or not, it's in our genes that "possession" of the females of a tribe equates to the ultimate dominance of that tribe.

    Now watch the phase the media is in; watch commercials, television programs, movies, and see how frequently black males and *blonde* females are portrayed together (and the female is seldom portrayed respectfully). For comparison, keep likewise count on how often white males and black females are are portrayed together (further proof of this almost instinctive outlook; political correctness would forbid a portrayal of a white male even vaguely "possessing" a black female... it harkens back too closely to the days of slavery, don'tcha know...) A black person, especially male, who rejects the artificial "black culture" is, in the media and public arena, condemned for "acting white", when the real black culture has far more in common with "white culture" than with the artificial black culture.

    Combined with the destructive, artificial "black culture" they've created, and you've a modern-day Morloch/Eloi relationship established.
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  • Posted by Snoogoo 10 years, 8 months ago
    Well, I'll be fair here, it doesn't sound like this was black on white crime but black on black crime. What I took away from this was to imagine the perspective of the management of these stores. They will only put up with this crap for so long, and then move out. Then of course you have people in this "community" saying the big evil corporations took away their shopping and jobs which is racist, but the real reason they are leaving is incidents like this.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
      There's a mid-size mall on the north side of MKE that has been totally vacant since before I moved to the area. A Wal-Mart just across the busy 6 lane street closed 3 yrs ago. Best Buy in the same area closed about the same time. While the economy had some impact, it has been the overall level of crime. This is a predominantly black portion of the city - and not the inner city either, this is what used to be looked at as a middle class neighborhood.
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      • Posted by iroseland 10 years, 8 months ago
        That would have been Northridge, back in the 70s it was a pretty decent place. After all the manufacturing jobs on that end of town went away first capitol court cell then Northridge became a place where you didn't want to be. Mayfair could very well be next. We will probably be moving back to Milwaukee in about 18 months. Seattle sucks way more than Milwaukee, but this time around we will be living in one of the good neighborhoods instead of trying to restore something near miller..
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    • -1
      Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 8 months ago
      Definitely gotta agree with you on that. Trying to take an issue of black-on-black crime and twist it into a story about black-on-white crime is a rather sickening distortion of the truth. This website seems highly suspect to me. What does WND stand for, anyway?
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
        I agree with both of you. That's why I worded my comment as I did, to address the issue expressed, rather than the specific incident in the article.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
    Why are you assuming they don't go to church every Sunday? And their names have nothing to do with their behavior.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 8 months ago
      The link be morality and religion is absurd. Christianity is immoral on its face. To condemn a child to Original Sin is the very definition of moral bankruptcy.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
        You'll have to explain this definition.
        You'll also have to explain the success of Christian cultures and the failure of atheist cultures. To wit, the United States vs every communist hellhole on the planet.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 8 months ago
          Actually christian cultures have fared very poorly. We can thank christians for the dark ages, the lose of how to make cement and many other inventions. The US and any common law country is based on Natural Rights, which are not christian in any sense.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 8 months ago
      Well, I can't remember the last time that an article about a black guy named John Smith who terrorized a mall. On the other hand, you very rarely see anyone with an apostrophe in their name running for elected office.

      As far as putting God first, I recall in the article that the defender didn't want to pursue the confrontation because his kids were there. It made it seem to me that he knew the aggressor and was anticipating an encounter. As a Christian myself, I have never gone to the mall with my kids and been afraid that the rival catholic church would gun me down!
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      • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
        I think names have a lot to deal with it, just like the "emigrants" from other countries move here because of all the gangs and street crime in their old country. So they move here and locate in a area with thousands of their fellows from the old country, seek out a job like they had in the old country, working for a boss just like they did in the old country. They refuse to learn the language of THIS country and demand that every document they get from this countries government be in their home tongue, just like n the old country and then when their kids join gangs, just like those in the old country and are killed or go to jail like they would have in the old country they complain that America never gave them a chance.

        .
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
          The book I'm reading "Infidel" touches on that very thing. They escape their own country and then set up the very same version of it in the country they escaped to...live off the dole and then do nothing but complain about the new country. They can't see that THEY are the cause of their own miserableness, but to change they'd have to break away from their oppressive religious beliefs as well. They do NOT want to be happy, they take over so many places in the mean time and are completely intolerant of those who are trying to be tolerant of them. It's a recipe for destruction and they learn NOTHING from their own history. And their mission is to take over the entire world with their religion...for peace's sake.. WARPED! And they are plenty aware of the power behind calling someone a "racist" too. We're living in insane times.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
        Ever hear of Westboro Baptist Church? If not, look them up - you'll be appalled.
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        • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
          Just remember that no matter what that group claims, they are NOT a Baptist church! I have no idea what they are, but they purchased a building from a church that was closing due to unknown reasons and they assumed the name and tax exempt status - which is what they wanted.

          They are NOT us.
          .
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
            Yet there are those here who continue to condemn an entire theology due to a few (and yes, it was a minority) of those in the structure who violated their oaths.
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
          Most Christians are appalled by them.
          Just not the same way homosexuals are appalled at the Folsom Street Fair, or socialists (usually atheists) are appalled at the Occupy crowd.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
      Where did he say anything about going to church every Sunday?

      As it appears to me, he said...

      "make sure that God and Jesus are first in our lives. "

      That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with going to a building with a certain architecture on a specific day of the week.
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
        I know that...my point was many of them would argue in that fashion, which leads to another point. Being moral should be first in our lives. I've known many who spend a lot of time at church and talk about God this and Jesus that and their kids are wild animals. I don't think they know what being moral even means. They are self destructive and like being a "victim" of their own existence. Plenty of blaming everything but themselves. Okay, I'm done.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
          Most of these folks are "moral" within their context of same. What you really mean is that you wish that they practiced a morality that was more commonly shared with the greater society.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
            I said nothing about the "greater society", I'm talking from a personal, individual stand point. Do you think they could explain their moral code, or what principles they live by?
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
              You seem to believe that morality is something universal, it is not. It is entirely personal and not shared exactly by any two people. It is beneficial that the majority of humanity commonly accepts a very large swath of a common morality, a swath anchored by the very religions that you like to demean. I do not espouse that this is the only way that that shared morality can be spread across society, but it has been a rather effective one nonetheless.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 8 months ago
          The last few words made me laugh. I enjoy this banter.

          I agree with what you said about church goers and their children. You see this often with Pastors Kids (PK). Growing up kids think that they are the most important thing in a Parents life. We should know that God comes first, then our family (spouse and kids) then work and other stuff. But when parents put God first and make their kids feel insignificant then I think that's how the kids become "wild animals" There is a fine line to walk as a parent to keep God first but still make the kids feel important and part of the family without forsaking God in the process. This could easily be flipped around and then you would end up with a spoiled brat who gets everything they want.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
            Our kids weren't raised with God in the way you describe. They've never been inside a church (I grew up in a church by the way, or nearly... my husband went as a kid, has read the bible a couple of times...) We aren't practicers and we don't make decisions based on what a higher power may or may not want.. My point is this. I can honestly say (and this isn't parental bias, although I probably won't be able to convince many of that), but our boys have turned out to be free thinkers and independent individuals who are polite, but speak up, and ask questions. They are aware of their surroundings and they notice. They are not spoiled brats and they know they are the most important things to us. Growing up constantly being at church you see things. Plenty of kids rebelling and ending up in trouble because God and heaven were being crammed down their throats. We're more of the "think about your actions and the consequences and do what's best for you. Chose your friends wisely.... " No praying for answers or reading scripture... We wanted them to reason things out for them selves. Oh... and they come to us when they need to talk...they know they will get straight answers and honest opinions. I'm very proud of them...and yes...we did build that.
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            • Posted by 10 years, 8 months ago
              I believe that Jesus died for my sins and because of that belief I will be given everlasting life in Heaven. If your children have never been in a church and they have not been told about Jesus then how can they believe. There is only one alternative to disbelief. I pray that you and your family come to believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.
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              • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago
                no lectern banging please


                "The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man." Galt's Speech
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
                  +1 for "lectern banging". I hope that all agree that I at least present argument, and not merely homily.
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                  • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
                    Surprising that those who wear the uniform of open mindedness are so discouraging of ANY mention of God, the bible or church.

                    How open minded are you if you reject the discussion of the subject. It's amazing how some actually flip out at the mention of religion. I don't think some here are "open minded" at all.
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                    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago
                      I don't know who took away a point. If you're referring to me, I patiently said nothing until the morality of LS's family was brought into question. That's generally when I'll say "lectern banging." It's my humorous way of saying could ya tone it down a little. You don't have to agree nor do you. There are many posts on religion, including click-through's to christianegoist's site. If you could see it from the Objectivist's perspective, however, we have these debates "out there" and regularly. This is a site devoted to AR's ideas and Atlas Shrugged. Sometimes the Christian or religious perspective can be overwhelming. Juxtapose that perspective with an Objectivist not bringing it up in here. There are (for contrast sake) very few posts in which Christianity is attacked (without it being brought up in here by the religious initially). So, in other words, you are free to enjoy and exchange all the other areas where there is tremendous overlap and we can discuss and engage from the same tenets. How many times have our gay gulchers had to be offended by the christian perspective on their post? Or how many times have they had to hear they needed to lighten up on posts referring to those topics? and star, you are one of those complainers-which was reasonable btw.
                      I remember a post where a member wanted to discuss the appropriate age for reading AS and because she mentioned she had a partner- the post immediately focused on that and how evil she was. The original intent of the post completely ignored. On THIS site! When several gulchers say hey-it's a little too much-can't that be seen as reasonable?.
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                    • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 8 months ago
                      open mindedness does not include believing in myths. That pushes an irrational morality. T\Christianity is immoral on its face. To condemn a child to Original Sin is the very definition of moral bankruptcy.
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                      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                        Do you believe in equality? Do you believe in "natural rights"?

                        Guess you're not open minded, then.

                        I'm going to tell you something people don't seem to say much...

                        IT'S HIS UNIVERSE. If it amuses Him to stake us out on anthills... there's not a damned thing you can do about it.

                        Among Christians, it's generally believed that children, being innocent, do make it to heaven. It's also why most Christians try to get their children baptized as early as possible.

                        "Original Sin" is why we're here and not in the Garden of Eden. Look around. This life you love so much and want to make the most of. This is the world of free will, self-determination, responsibility for one's actions.

                        THIS is what children have been condemned to for Original Sin.
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                      • -1
                        Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 8 months ago
                        Fun fact: the Mormon church repudiates the concept of original sin, calling the doctrine an abomination, and teaches that any child who dies before the age of accountability (eight years old), is automatically saved, regardless of whether or not any ceremonies or religious rituals (such as baptism) have been preformed for them.
                        --------------------
                        8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
                        9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
                        [...]
                        15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
                        --------------------
                        The Book of Mormon, Moroni chapter 8, verses 8, 9, & 15
                        http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/...

                        The Mormon church also has 13 Articles of Faith, the second of which states that “men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam’s transgression.”
                        http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f...
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                        • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 8 months ago
                          That is interesting, but it is contradictory to Christianity. Original sin is the focus of Adam and Eve and Christ dies and is resurrected because of it.
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                          • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 8 months ago
                            Were one listening to the standard Catholic/Protestant explanation of Original Sin, they'd be quite correct to draw your conclusion. I am going to quibble with you that you paint too broad a brush when you say this is contradictory to Christianity, however. The original sin was Adam and Eve's disobedience in eating the forbidden fruit. The precise impact of that on mankind has been argued inside the church for centuries, and there is NOT universal agreement on this. The Catholic/Protestant explanation is prominent, but does not represent Christianity as a whole. Here is but one counter-example:
                            http://churchofchristarticles.com/blog/a...
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                            • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 8 months ago
                              Nope Protestants, do not teach original sin doctrine.
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                              • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 8 months ago
                                Surprising statement! I disagree. Yes, they most certainly do. A visit to the Wikipedia pages on Original Sin and Calvinism should establish that. There may be some outliers considered Protestant that don't believe this, but the majority most certainly do. Their PROTEST in Protestantism (versus Catholicism) has nothing to do with the Catholic view on Original Sin.
                                "But original enters into us; we do not commit it, but we suffer it. We are sinners because we are the sons of a sinner. A sinner can beget only a sinner, who is like him.” - Martin Luther.
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                                • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 8 months ago
                                  Even if the wiki article is right which it's not because it says that Catholics don't believe in original sin. Yet, they babtize babies so they don't go into Limbo if they die. Martn Luther the first protestant wanted people to read the bible for themselves. Could Calvin or Luther have misinterpreted something . Yes. But they both wanted people to read the bible. That is what all Protestant Churches teach. The Old Testament is based on Jewish beliefs they don't teach that babies are born with original sin.Were we were born into a world where there was no sin? No, with desires Yes. Protestants say read the Bible. Martin Luther read the bible. I have no idea why he reverted to what he was taught before he read the bible maybe he was torn by his original beliefs. Read the Bible. Paul did not say every man is guilty of Adams sin. The Old Testament was Jewish teachings and they don't teach that people are born with sin.

                                  22 For as in Adam all die(this is sin), even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
                                  This shows that Adam as the example sinned. God could have gone through the same process with every human born after Adam, put them in the garden tell them stay away from sin. Let them eat the fruit then send them into the world. Let them find out they can't do everything by themselves.That is not what he chose to do sin entered the world God gets to choose.who are his examples.
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                                  • LionelHutz replied 10 years, 8 months ago
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                        • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 8 months ago
                          Baptists don't believe in original sin I think that is true for all protestants.
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                          • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago
                            then why is it discussed on the wiki page for Baptists? Where does the term "baptism" come from? What was John the Baptist's calling? For baptist's the baptism isn't even sufficient to wipe away sin-that also on the wiki page. I know there are many different branches of Baptist churches, but I'll be pretty surprised if you can show the doctrine does not include original sin. It's the point of baptism-am I wrong?



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                            • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 8 months ago
                              The term original sin is not in the bible. Do a search of the King James Bible. Baptism is a ceremony where you declare your faith and your plan to live your life the way God wanted publicly. John the Baptist's calling was to prepare the way for the coming of Jesus by preaching. Baptism was used for the forgiveness of sins by baptism and repentance. Jesus was the new covenant (promise from God) Through Jesus baptizing us in the Holy Spirit our sin is forgiven and a new strength is given to us. Great question.
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                          • Posted by fivedollargold 10 years, 8 months ago
                            Technically, Baptists don't consider themselves Protestants as they predate the Roman Catholic church. They consider John the Baptist, no pun intended, as their spiritual founder. However, in reality, I don't think they can draw a continuous lineage that far back.
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                            • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 8 months ago
                              We are Protestants I never heard any different untll nnow. There may be a few churches somewhere saying something different. I have never come acrossed it. Wikipedia says there are some churches that claim what you said. .
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
                          There are some that will call Mormonism a cult, or even a blasphemy. I must take it as another perspective on God.
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                          • Posted by fivedollargold 10 years, 8 months ago
                            I don't believe in the idea that Jesus returned to Earth to visit South America, nor do I believe in polygamy. (The LDS church has since changed its view on the latter practice.) On the other hand, I've known several Mormons, and I admire their work ethic and devotion to their cause.
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                    • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                      Are you implying that religious people are "open minded"?
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
                        Please point to any discussion on this forum in which I have not been "open minded?" I am a very staunch advocate of my position, but I don't think that you can point to any instance where I have not been open to the discussion. Quite frankly, it has been you and those on the other side of the argument who have been absolutely closed minded.
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                        • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                          THIS IS THE GULCH!! Why is there religion in it? That's not being closed minded it's stating a serious question.
                          I'm out.
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                          • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
                            Please point to what rule of this site says discussion or mention of religion is not allowed on the gulch? If it is not, then I guess it's not the place of open minds and free thinking and I'll take producers fees and find another place to hang out.

                            How about it Rich, are religious people not welcome here???? I'm serious. I've never met such a bunch of closed minded people in my life.

                            I don't have to be here. But I bet some of you do. Keep on talking among yourselves telling yourselves just how all knowing you are, never challenging your preconceptions. I'm sure that's how Ayn Rand figured it all out.
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                            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
                              You are right, there seem to be those here who have a cult of AR.
                              I for one, find the debate invigorating. What I find less so are those who are closed minded. I'll tolerate them for some time, but when they show themselves to be mere bigots, I cut them loose.
                              I do appreciate that the owners of the site do not impose restrictions in nearly any respect. It is self-restraint that keeps this site mostly rational and not irrational. Yet there are those who still verge on the irrational.
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                          • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                            BECAUSE SOME OBJECTIVISTS WORSHIP AYN RAND WHILE OTHERS WORSHIP OBJECTIVISM AND STILL OTHERS WORSHIP THEMSELVES.

                            That answer your question?
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                          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
                            What does that have to do with anything? Are you saying that free, intelligent people cannot have different views of the existence of life?
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                They are aware of religious beliefs. We tell them the truth. Plenty of bible stories were kicking around this house when they were little. As grown ups they are free to make their own decisions.
                There is no proof of a here after and you only live once.... If there is a here after then what kind of God would keep out a moral person who lived their one life for their own happiness and not at the expense of others?
                I also don't understand how a father sends his son to his horrible death for the sins of others. I won't further this discussion since you've just damned us all to hell for being decent people who don't believe what you believe. But that's typical and expected. Who you pray for is your business, not mine.
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                • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
                  Lets Shrug, Sorry, but you missed the whole point of things. I wonder how the religious discussions were couched in your home if you think that anyone here has "damned you all to hell".

                  Frankly you need to ratchet down the hysteria and study religion some time because you really don't understand anything correctly. Surely you'd agree that if you lack understanding perhaps your preconceptions might just be wrong and you would be better served by correctly understanding what you are rejecting?

                  I'm not saying that you should become a Christian, I'm just saying that not correctly understanding the tenants you so vehemently reject is shameful for an intelligent person. Making a totally wrong theological statement like that is embarrassing. It's like saying that stars are hung with masking tape when you talk with an astronomer.
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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                    Apparently you haven't read all the comments being flung around, star. And you missed the part where I explained that I grew up in a religious christian home. I've been there, I bought into it for years, deeply bought into it. My father was a minister when I was a kid. What tenants am I rejecting? What hysteria are you talking about? You're reading something that isn't there. I can reject whatever I see fit to reject. That last paragraph of yours is an attack on me for disagreeing with religion, but you didn't explain what I said exactly that you're attacking. And that last sentence...lol...really? "masking tape" is the same as what I said?
                    Make no mistake, I correctly understand what I am rejecting.
                    And I'm not the hysterical one in the room.
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                    • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
                      Sorry you really don't. No human has the ability to damn your soul to hell. None of us. You may decide over the entire course of your life that you want nothing to do with God. Your choice, nobody will force you too.

                      AFTER you die, and have successfully avoided any holy influences in your life what happens is between you and God. I know that you want to be all anti god and everything, but as the hourglass runs out lots of folks turn to God for help beyond their ability to handle. Maybe you will maybe not, again nobody chooses for you.

                      Decide in the last second of your live that you don't want to change a thing -guess what, YOU decide. Not me, not some preacher someplace, not god, not your dad, you decide.

                      My job in the entire thing is to just make sure you understand that.

                      God created heaven for people who want to be there, not for folks who think they've got to go. BTW, I'm not attacking nobody. I'm just having a good laugh at the misconceptions here. Don't anybody give up your day jobs because you won't make as theologians.
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                      • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                        I'm anti-God? lol
                        and who says I'm "WRONG"? You? You don't KNOW that. You might FEEEL it, but you don't KNOOOW it. Try proving it.
                        I never aspired to be a theologian anyway.
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
                          Methinks you are too sensitive.
                          1) AR is not the absolute authority on the effects of belief.
                          2) What guards against the "baddest ass on the block" philosophy without a religious aspect?
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                        • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
                          I told you that you were getting hysterical. I never said you were anti god, did I? As for being wrong, yes, you are. Nobody can damn your soul except you. You said that somebody told you that, I don't find the quote anywhere here, I know I never said that because it's theologically erroneous. If you want to believe that some mortal has that power, fine, but it's not biblical. And it's not a Christian view.

                          As for you not wanting to allow any discussion of religious matters, if anybody reads your posts on this thread I'd suggest they won't draw any other conclusion.

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                      • Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 8 months ago
                        Surprise twist! Lucifer was the good guy all along, and that Yahweh fellow managed to trick you into worshiping Him instead, thus incurring the wrath of Lucifer, who is Son of the Morning and the Prince of Light, and who has decided to condemn you to an eternity of suffering for the crime of worshiping the false god Yahweh and hating others for not doing the same.

                        I dare you to prove this wrong.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
                  That is merely the teaching of various sects of religion. It is not universal. It is also what has been espoused by humans, and humans are fallible.
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                • -1
                  Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 8 months ago
                  There is also the possibility that reincarnation is real, and the only people who get to go to Heaven are those who live good lives, while everyone else has to keep coming back to Earth over and over again until they get it right.
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                  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 8 months ago
                    I like earth. Heaven seems boring. And no that's not a possibility. And even if it was it isn't worth thinking about. Sorry, felt like adding my two cents lol.
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
              There's no room in recovery for your boys...
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                Yes...there is no need for our sons to recover from that cloud of unearned guilt and religious manipulation and always trying to please a higher power...who says he gave me free will but at the same time doesn't want me to exercise it. Thank you for noticing. (I'm speaking from experience here.)
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                • Posted by preimert1 10 years, 8 months ago
                  another +1 for "unearned guilt." Never could understand why an innocent baby is born with aalready sin laid on it.
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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                    Meee NEITHER!
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                    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                      And I never understood why an innocent man is poor, either. I mean, I'm innocent; why aren't I rich? Why did I start work broke instead of a billionaire?

                      Tell you what... have this conversation with an "innocent" lion or an "innocent" wolf and see how long your face remains intact while conversing with that "innocent" animal.

                      Never could understand why an innocent lion is born with already the label of "killer" laid on it.

                      We are the apes that we are; it is in our nature to act according to our nature. It takes an act of will to do otherwise. The default position is to act according to your nature. So you have 'sin' on you until you prove yourself more than an animal by controlling your nature.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJsYKhEV...
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                      • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                        That made NO sense. I've known plenty of people who know next to nothing about religion and they've never ripped anyone's faces off. You're messed up.
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                        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                          o.O
                          Apes are not lions. Are you taking the analogy to ridiculous extremes because you're still in a perverse mood, or are you really that obtuse?

                          The "sin" you decry, on innocent babies, is that they will act according to their instincts, their nature, just as a lion will act according to his nature. For example, *according to a lion's nature*, if you annoy him, he will kill you and not lose a second's sleep over it. He is born this way, with this "sin" upon his head. To be otherwise would be a learned behavior. You want to get into heaven, learn not to behave like an ape.

                          But, amusingly, you argue as though everyone has a "right" to get into heaven, that they have a "right" to an afterlife... kind of like arguing as though everyone had a "right" to a job... no, you have a right to a job if you suit your would-be employer. Likewise, your "right" to an afterlife is based solely upon meeting God's criteria for achieving an afterlife. If it were standing on your head 12 hours a day reciting Chinese poetry while spitting ball bearings... that may not make any sense to you, but that's the criteria.

                          Hey, one day, you're going to die, be put in the ground and rot, and that's the end of it. If that belief makes you happy, and gives you that feeling of intellectual or ethical superiority you seem to need to get through the day... more power to you! I'm not one for kicking other people's crutches out from under them. But then I already said I wasn't an Objectivist.
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                      • Posted by preimert1 10 years, 8 months ago
                        Hiraghm, thats the most specious argument
                        I ever heard. How can you condemn a child
                        in advance for some future act that it may
                        or not commit based its inherent nature?
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                      • Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 8 months ago
                        Why did you start work broke instead of a billionaire? Because your parents were broke, that's why. You want to start work as a billionaire, you have to be born to billionaire parents.
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                    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                      Yeah, I always had trouble understanding that whole 'spacetime' thing, where causes had to precede effects. Seems awfully inconvenient for a being capable of creating a universe...

                      The thing about an "innocent" baby... from God's perspective, he's a father, a grandfather, possibly a great grandfather. That whole "omniscient" thing that comes from existing outside of spacetime.

                      Ever see "Slaughterhouse Five"? "2001 A Space Odyssey"?

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                      • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                        Yeah..so splash him with some water and make it all better. Whew..that was a close one.
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                        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                          So, an alcoholic can smash a whiskey bottle, and it's all better, for the rest of his life he'll never be tempted to drink again?

                          It doesn't work that way. And you're arguing Catholic rituals to a protestant who doesn't see the requirement for religious institutions....
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                  • Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 8 months ago
                    It's simple, really. The church has to convince people to bow down to its authority somehow. Telling them that they're all inherently evil and doomed to suffer forever in a lake of fire and brimstone unless they obey the church's every command is an effective method of scaring them into compliant obedience. Ever since the Western world decided to implement separation of church and state, the church has had to lean ever more heavily on the mystical consequences for disobedience, as the authority to employ physical consequences in the real world has been stripped from them.
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                    • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
                      No that not what is taught at church. Perhaps a visit sometime might educate you about what church is? I've taught suday school for high schoolers and adults and I've never told anyone these sort of lies. I'm not too sure where you got these things, but you're just wrong.
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                      • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 8 months ago
                        That's what I was taught when I went to Sunday School. I remember they took one of us up and told him that everyone below him would be burning in hell but he would go to heaven and be happy about it for some reason.
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                    • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
                      What a horribly confused idea you all have of the Christian faith. No wonder you all reject every thought about it. Being told a grimms fairy tail like these would scare anyone. Afraid you all really missed the entire grace part of Gods character and focus on the judgemental and even twisted that.

                      I can't believe that you think that's what it's about! No wonder.
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                      • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 8 months ago
                        ....the entire grace part of gods character......That's your opinion stargeezer and you are welcome to it. Some of us don't hold the same opinion and for myself, I get tired of being shot with bible bullets because I don't hold the same opinion. In my opinion religion has been the bane of man. How many lives have been controlled and cultures destroyed in gods name? How many die daily because someone believes 'my god is better than your god and I'll kill you to prove it.'

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                        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                          And how many die because some people feel it's their right to do whatever the hell makes them happy? Thousands. Daily.

                          And how many religions teach that God loves you?

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                        • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 8 months ago
                          Sometimes religion inspires people to do good. Either way, to me it seems like they're making stuff up. Even if the final consequence of making stuff up is good, it doesn't make it true.
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                    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                      "the church has had to lean ever more heavily on the mystical consequences for disobedience, as the authority to employ physical consequences in the real world has been stripped from them. "

                      Which has nothing at all to do with actual Christian beliefs or the teachings of Jesus.

                      Might find this useful:
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_...
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                • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                  key words "religious *manipulation*."

                  I love it when, on the one hand, people complain that they have to behave a certain way to make it into heaven (analogous to having to earn money before you can spend it... how unfair), and then whine when they don't see God interfering directly in their lives. or because He "allows" bad things to happen to good people. Most people understand "free will" like they understand "free market capitalism".

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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                    Free will: "I am NOT going to church ANY more."
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                    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                      Suit yourself. I don't go to church, either. I don't see the need.
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                      • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                        I said it 30 years ago.
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                        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                          And you still have the chip on your shoulder.
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_gMySgh...
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                          • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                            No...I got rid of the chip. Flicked it off like an annoying fly.
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                            • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                              No you didn't. It's weighing your shoulder down even now. Your resentment is palpable.
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                              • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 8 months ago
                                My resentment against evil priests? I don't have resentment about religion itself...I'm indifferent actually. Believe what you want just don't cram it down my throat like it's something I need to hear because you think I'm misguided or something. Apparently others like to read a tone in my writings that isn't even there.
                                How the gulch attracts the religious remains a complete mystery to me. Perhaps we need two gulches because you're hell bent on trying to convince the rest of us that were misunderstanding god.
                                There is no church in the gulch.
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                                • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 8 months ago
                                  I don't like priests either. They all are wrong about scripture. Every single one of them.

                                  BTW, God is not in church so by not going there, no dynamic is changed.

                                  Most of us live full lives which include knowledge, experience, family and still find room for religion. It's a part of our lives and we are not challenged by your intolerance and hatred of us because of our belief.

                                  You were very friendly to me until you discovered I was a Christian, then that changed, just like those who are down checking my posts here tonight. I don't understand that, but I have no heart burn with you for your unbelief. Be happy.
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                                • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                                  "Believe what you want just don't cram it down my throat like it's something I need to hear because you think I'm misguided or something. "

                                  You mean like objectivism? or the need for limited government? Or the importance of the 2nd Amendment?

                                  Again, your resentment leads you to the paranoid misapprehension that I'm trying to proselytize you. I don't give a shit what you believe, just as I don't give a shit what Obama believes. But, when you're wrong, or when he's wrong... I'm going to argue.
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                                  • LetsShrug replied 10 years, 8 months ago
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                                • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 8 months ago
                                  I'll build one. You can come or not as you please.

                                  Oh yeah... almost forgot...

                                  THE CHURCH IS NOT GOD.
                                  Nor is it Christianity. When you stop confusing the institution with the religion, then maybe people will stop thinking you're misguided.


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                                  • LetsShrug replied 10 years, 8 months ago
      • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 8 months ago
        That is a recipe for disaster and going back to the dark ages.

        The link be morality and religion is absurd. Christianity is immoral on its face. To condemn a child to Original Sin is the very definition of moral bankruptcy.
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