Subjective Theory of Value and Its Importance in Currency

Posted by dherik 10 years, 3 months ago to Economics
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Something I wrote about "fiat" currency


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  • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I really don't understand. I saw that Coke is using U.S. dollars to purchase raw materials from America for Coke plants in South America. How does that give them an advantage? I thought if they used pesos the exchange rate just go into effect?
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  • Posted by $ 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You can't MAKE a currency equal... the value theory disallows that. I don't value mexican pesos at all because they are of no use to me.
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  • Posted by $ 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How do you suggest I otherwise trade my good or service with someone who does not value my good or service but I value his good or service?
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  • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Economics are boring to some people(me) I have to fight to read it and the longer it is the more likely I am to take hours to read it thoroughly. If I start explaining Organic Chemistry that would be boring to some people too.
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The thing is an economist might determine the overall supply of money should be increased to X, but just because they want it that way doesn't mean they can make it happen. It could take months/years/decades to get that gold out of the ground. That's one of the reasons we've got the fiat we do: central bankers and government economists like to be able to make that money supply expand at will to any desirable size.

    This reasoning of "oh man, we've got so much economic activity going on right now. We need to print more money" just never made any sense to me. During high economic activity, the money's just changing hands. It's not being destroyed or hoarded.

    Can you paint a scenario for me where the supply of money is insufficient to keep up with the activity?

    In my view, a 'high' supply of money simply makes money less valuable and prices go up to adjust. Conversely, a 'low' supply of money simply makes money more valuable and prices go down to adjust. Until/unless you get down to the point where your smallest unit of currency won't buy the smallest thing available to purchase, or unless you've got a population/money ratio so out of whack that there's not enough money for everyone to have one unit of it, I don't see a problem. Prices just keep adjusting downward, and what's wrong with that?
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm surprised that there aren't more of these Objectivists knowledgeable about Austrian economic theory. It fits in very nicely with the thinking of Midas Mulligan, although AR didn't spend an awful lot of attention on the economics as much as the consequences of collectivism.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In the case of a gold-backed money, then the mining of gold establishes the supply. As economic activity increases, the supply of money is insufficient to keep up with the activity. This makes everything more expensive (including the gold). This increase in value entices more mining of gold. Likewise, if too much gold is created or the economic activity decreases, then there will be too much money. This causes the value to decrease (actually causes inflation, which is the same thing just seems like it is reverse). This results in gold prices decreasing, making it less desirable to mine.
    The nice thing about gold (or any non-human mechanism that controls the amount of supply of money) is that it is self regulating. The one caveat is that if a mountain of gold, previously unknown, were suddenly found, then hyperinflation would occur. This is one of the reasons that you should never look to diamonds as a source of backing for a money. The Russians have tons of them stored, as do the Belgians - both control the supply to keep prices high, but both have huge reserves that could flood the market at any time.
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Enjoying the conversation!
    It is the "overall supply" that I am discussing. So - say there was an economy with a 100% gold-backed currency and the Austrian economists determine that the overall supply of money must be increased to keep pace with economic activity.
    How do they do it?
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Don't think so. The interest rate is the free-market mechanism to control the money in circulation (not the supply per se, but the available supply). As interest rates go down, it is less advantageous to hold it and it is taken out and used - also providing for less to be available to loan. When interest rates go up, it makes better sense to keep it stored - and provides for more availability to be loaned out.
    That is different from the overall supply, however. That needs to keep pace with overall economic activity otherwise an imbalance begins to occur (usually causing a shortage, but if there had been reducing economic activity could cause an oversupply and inflation).
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Hmm - we might be operating on different definitions of "supply of money".
    I would call the interest rate the "cost of money".
    Now, I can see your angle if in your view a bank has a storehouse of money sitting in its vault not doing anything, and a lowering of the interest rate creates a desire for someone to borrow that money, thereby increasing the "supply" that is now circulating in the economy. But that's an entirely different matter than supply being the "creation of new money". Do I understand or misunderstand you? I would say in our fiat system that it's a bit flipped around from your statement. The supply of money is controlling the interest rate. QE has sent interest rates to the floor.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Free market interest rates control the supply of money. However, it must maintain relatively stable with the overall economic activity to prevent the boom/bust cycles caused by excessive supply.
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  • Posted by mminnick 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I said very few do. There is an economic benefit to china and others that do. It keeps their currency lower values against some particular currency. This is generally used to keep the cost of their goods and services lowered than their competitions.
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The Austrian definition of sound money has nothing to do with managing the supply of money based on measurements of economic activity.
    See also: http://mises.org/daily/2623
    Particularly, the section "The impossibility of a stable purchasing power of money"
    Further quote from section "The Call for Free-market Money":
    "It might sound paradoxical to most mainstream economists, but to Austrians it is the very objective of price stability that contributes strongly to making a dismal prediction. The "index regime" provokes repeated government intervention and misalignments, which, sooner or later, result in serious economic and societal crises."
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Bitcoin is created by some computer algorithm. I don't understand how these systems were created or assigned to create more bitcoins, but those who ended up with the creation of the new coins have made a lot of money.
    They are virtual, so only exist in an electronic form.
    My biggest concern is that they are generated by a computer code, and any code can be broken if enough time and effort is thrown at doing so. I have no doubt that the NSA has or can do so should they be given the task. Thus, as with any other currency, they could dramatically increase the supply, thus making them virtually worthless, should the need ever arise. It is more difficult, although not impossible, to do that with a "hard" currency.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not all prefer to float. For example, the Chinese pegged the Yuan to the dollar for a long time. This ensured that their goods remained at a fixed cost compared to like goods manufactured in the US. Even as inflation grew in China, their prices stayed even and thus were advantaged over the US. Often when one country is looking to expand it's own exports it will link the value of it's currency with it's primary trading partner. This ensures the advantage remains even as internal economic conditions change.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Austrians support sound money, which means a supply that maintained at the level of economic activity. Expansionist money supply policies cause the boom/bust business cycles. Maintaining a supply that keeps pace (up and down) with economic activity reduces the boom/busts and maintains a constant economic environment.
    Of course, that prevents the politicians from manipulating things to their benefit, thus, is unlikely ever to be enacted by any legislature.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It is just like any other "foreign currency." The advantage is that since it is entirely electronic, it is easier to transfer than some hard foreign currency which would need to be collected, counted, and transported.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    they are still working on that. They exchange readily into currency. More and more companies are accepting them. People are coming up with amazing ideas-like a vending machine that takes your bitcoin and exchanges it for currency and vice versa. Bit coin is sold through different exchanges and the price varies slightly depending. You can also buy fractions of a coin. Check out Coinbase, an online wallet that will also act as a broker for you.
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  • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If I wanted to make purchases with bitcoin would I be limited to a group that accepts them or are they converted to money at the point of purchase?
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 3 months ago
    We're not on the same page.

    Were STV the explanation about why fiat currencies "work", there would be no need for legal tender laws. I argue people only "value" fiat currencies because of legal tender laws which force their acceptance. No true individual value judgements are being made, and these are the foundation of STV.

    Referring to Mises' Theory of Money and Credit, Chapter 8:
    http://mises.org/books/Theory_Money_Cred...
    In Chapter 8 part 4, Mises points out how economists have tried to make the case that STV applies to money as well as goods/services, but have come up short. You make statements in your post how STV suggests the value of "a good or currency". My reading of Mises as well as the Wiki on STV suggests you ought not be mingling money with goods and services.

    Chapter 2 of that link make the argument that whatever money is...it has a REAL value. To say "currency backed by something goes against the very basics of Austrian Economics", well, explain that further, please. The Austrian explanation of money boils down to the "Regression Theorem" http://mises.org/daily/1333
    When Austrian School economist Hayek suggested competing private fiat currencies could work, he was ridiculed for it. https://mises.org/daily/1854
    Austrians are for sound money. That means in practical terms a currency that is tied to sound money.
    You wouldn't see so much ridicule about Fiat money and so much stress on Gold from the Austrian crowd if what you're saying is really true.
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  • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 3 months ago
    Your article is good. Bitcoin sounds as if anyone can print some, get people to buy into it, then suddenly you're a millionaire. The power to coin money was given to the Congress, I know they gave that power to the Feds but, they could take it back if this overtook the dollar's value. Tell me where I am wrong.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    it's an issue with the $.
    1. store of value 2. store of value 3. easily divisible 4. easily transferable 5. widely accepted In this case, NOT backed and regulated by the govt is a good thing
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  • Posted by fivedollargold 10 years, 3 months ago
    Interesting point of view. Of course, $5Au has a certain, ahem, bias when it comes to currency.
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