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Purchasing Atlantis from a debt-ridden country, but with autonomy built into the purchasing agreement?

Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 8 months ago to Government
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Many of us, led by db and Kh, have been debating the subject of immigration. I would love to see America get back to her pre-1913 roots, but for numerous reasons, I think that such effort is a waste of time and resources.

Freedomforall, in response to my suggestion that America sell its "government land" to pay down at least part of its debt, asked if such a sale could include the right to secede.

That prompted me to consider the possibility of buying land from debt-ridden countries (some of which are experiencing hyperinflation) at rockbottom prices, with autonomy being required as a condition of purchase. As debt piles up all around the world, there will be some opportunities along these lines for vultures like myself to come scavenge the debris. Perhaps an island off the Venezuelan coast with some nearby oil? In our previous discussions about a physical Gulch, our premise had been to buy land that the nearby government would largely ignore based on its track record of freedom (or lack thereof). That may be the wrong premise to work from. Why should we not provide a value for value trade in their time of desperation? The question then is how long do we wait. The price for the land in such desperate countries should continue to go down, but the conditions in our own countries might get bad enough that we could get trapped by 10-289.

The United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and Thailand are working toward the development of micronations off their coasts. Interestingly, Google is developing the first such island. The linked article describes some of the first work along these lines.


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  • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    And the only thing which has produced this situation for anything short of a global superpower or geographic isolation has been the ability to nuke your attacker. Something which carries it's own problems.
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  • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Unless we did it on Mars. ;)

    In which case we'd have plenty generally worth taking overall but the cost (and difficulty) of doing so would be dramatically higher. These factors are one of the prime reasons early America was able to grow and thrive as it did.
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  • Posted by fosterj717 8 years, 8 months ago
    What an excellent idea! A place where the producers can go and do what they do best without "moocher class" interference! Where do I sign up???
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The Swiss have nothing worth taking, and that's exactly why they get away with their foreign policy. Our new country would be like that.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    An attempt to reacquire the purchased land by force would be likely. I envision such looters and moochers being driven off by Frank Adams et al. as they did at Rearden's steel mill. ;)
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  • Posted by Eudaimonia 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This was my immediate concern as well. If a state is in such a condition that it must sell territory to pay its debts, then it is most likely already a looter state and well on its way to becoming a collapsed looter state.

    Entering into a monetary agreement with them will give them legitimacy, stave off the inevitable, and undermine their indigenous population who are sick of the looters' rule.

    What's more, if it is a looter state, it is pretty much a guarantee that they will never honor the agreement. They will whip up Marxist propaganda about how the land was stolen from them by greedy capitalists who took advantage of them in their time of need and who robbed them of their most resource rich land (and it must be the most resource rich, just look at how much better they are doing than us).

    The attempt to reacquire the purchased land by force would be inevitable.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    They are meeting with the country of Georgia, one of the former Soviet republics that was glad to be free of Russia.
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  • Posted by SaltyDog 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks for the links. Interesting reading! I've started looking to see if their ambassador has been received by anyone yet. I suppose that would be the first step in legitimizing their claim to sovereignty.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    For that matter the national debt could be solved by simply selling off federal property or at least a large chunk of it. Just think of part of the 30% of the nation owned by the Feds being turned into property tax producing land. NO NO forget I said that. But how much does Ted Turner pay in property tax as the second largest private landowner? Might be instructive although as I said an aside to the immigration issue.

    Emigrate when you are leaving to go elsewhere

    migrate while on the move

    Immigrate when you are arriving elsewhere.

    Taxes south of the border are not all that high. Depends on what status you hold.

    Deduct the cost of not owning any property north of the border and treat the USA as someplace to visit (family considerations) when compared to a state like Michigan to which even Florida represents a huge reduction in cost but further south it can be a tremendous savings. I can't give you chapter and verse but up north in Mexico there are two ways besides just renting or leasing. One is buy or build the house and lease or rent the land. The other is own the land and the house. The third is live on a boat or in an RV.

    tough if you are still working but instead of investing in US Land for retirement purposes think of south of the border land and visiting the grand kids.

    Lot of changes down here all for the better. But as for working or starting a business that's another story - although why if you are retired?

    It's a worth while goal. Especially considering the alternative.and more especially with a mini ice age starting up in the next few years.

    Consider that a well deserved dig on the global warming scam.

    (no panic needed for global cooling the prediction is .1 Centigrade cooler)
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    They would want to not only trade or invest there, but live there, if living anywhere else became THAT desperate. Most of us would not leave America until things got as bad as they were in the 1990s in what is now Liberland.
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  • Posted by conscious1978 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Then, why would anyone want to trade or invest there? Why, especially knowing the inability to defend life or property...?
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    At first no Gulch nation would have anything worth taking. We'll see how long Liberland lasts.
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  • Posted by conscious1978 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The only reason they haven't been swept up is because they don't have anything worth taking. The same issue would face any tiny 'Gulch nation'.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I just looked at their official web site, and their leader has been detained a couple of times by Croatians from getting off the Danube River back into his own new country. The Danube River is a major thoroughfare, but access to it is controlled by Liborland's neighbors.

    Liborland is not thriving, but Croatia, Serbia, and Bosnia are not exactly thriving either.
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  • Posted by SaltyDog 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's all quite true J, but virtually anyplace we'd choose is subject to the same threats. Witness the small Pacific islands that were taken by all sides for aircraft refueling and maintenance, as well as anchorages for the various fleets. Any island small enough to be of no strategic value to anyone would doubtless be worthless to us as well.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Liberland's leader has been detained a couple of times by Croatia, which treats Liberland as part of Serbia.
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  • Posted by conscious1978 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Jim, that's overstating the reality. Three square miles with access via one dirt road or boat.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/business/a...

    Given all they've lived through, I can't blame them for trying to find more freedom. They are facing the real issues that would be inherent in any geographical 'Gulch'. I wouldn't call it thriving. I wouldn't leave here to go there; but it's probably a step up for them.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Having our own little micronation puts db's and Kh's arguments regarding permission of non-citizens in a little bit of a different light. They and others have argued for the last week that Atlantis was a literary device and not a "nation", and I will grant that with regard to existing nations. However, does the equation change if a MICROnation decides that it has to defend itself against intrusion by looters, spies, moochers, etc.? I would be perfectly willing to let travelers come in and do their business, provided that they go through a quick standard visa or passport process. The emphasis is in the last sentence was on "I", because in a few years, I might actually be in a financial position to buy a small island. If I did, I would much rather have likeminded friends there than be a hermit.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Liberland is in a very interesting location. It was in an area in which there have long been disputes regarding nationality (Think WW 1 and the Bosnia/Serbia/Croatia conflict in the 1990s, but also for half a millenium earlier). Because of such disputes, no one other country really had a unique claim on it. Moreover, it is right on a major river, the Danube as I remember. There are river cruises that go right past there. That could be a wonderful opportunity for commerce, but at the same time, it could be an easy spot for an invading country to take over (Think Hitler's Germany.).
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