Galt's Gulch
12

EPA Has Gone Too Far — Rein It In, Or Get Rid Of It

Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 8 months ago to Government
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HMMM... Investors Business Daily is calling out the EPA, and by association, the Obamanation and his gang. Good for them.
SOURCE URL: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/082815-768792-judge-calls-new-epa-water-rule-inexplicable.htm

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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 8 months ago
    The EPA has gone too far by merely existing. Every government agency exists only in order to control its citizens by curtailing their freedom.
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    • Posted by $ Suzanne43 8 years, 8 months ago
      Absolutely! Look how the EPA tried to handle its own environmental catastrophe a few weeks ago. They tried to cover it up and minimize the threat. (Good thing it wasn't BP.) I say either curtail it or get rid of it, and that goes for the controlling IRS, too.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 8 months ago
        Every time throughout history, whenever there is a strong complaint about an issue, or an injustice, the solution is either to form a committee which eventually makes the subject disappear, or create an agency to govern the problem. In the former, it usually means that they don't want the issue to see the light of day for whatever reason, and in the latter, one more way to control the populace. By and large, the people who govern us are not benevolent, and should be treated as you would a venomous snake. You may get away without being bitten, but don't take any chances.
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        • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 8 months ago
          yes, Herb, you are indeed right on. It comes down to an issue of some few companies making a mess and doing some bad things that will get us, or a huge govt agency, either choice sucks.They haven't even gone into what happens to all the open pit dumps from the last100 years leaching their crap into the groundwater. Burying it was not the most brilliant idea.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 8 months ago
            If you want brilliant ideas, I'm sure you'll agree,politics is not the place to look for them.
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            • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
              Of course, remember "Change"? Nuthin changed, other than who got the goodies, and who they took action against. Every 4 ears it is the same litany, which is why Trump is where he is..he at least voices what everyone knows. But there is no brilliant ideas in politics except "how much can I squeeze it for?".
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            • Posted by SaltyDog 8 years, 8 months ago
              That depends, Herb.

              If you're looking for brilliant ideas regarding how to stay in power, looting a treasury and self-aggrandizement, politics would be the grand daddy of them all. If however one is looking for ideas as to help the populace, well, not so much.

              Good idea though!

              +1
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      • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 8 months ago
        Indeed, and that is proof they are a culpable as the people they are supposedly policing. There is a rancher being fined 16 million and he did a great job, and the pig next to me dumped ecoli off the scale and manure into a stream that feed a drinking water source and it took 3 years and he was fined 900 he never paid. It is a completely broken system, and broken because you cannot trust idiots in govt to do what they are tasked with without going power mad.
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  • Posted by BradSnipes1 8 years, 8 months ago
    Through agencies like the EPA, IRS, OSHA, DOE, USPTO, and may other ridiculous agencies and regulations, a monstrous and evil Federal Government controls almost every aspect of our lives.
    The theory of "man-caused global warming" is a tool used by liberals to gain control of the energy sectors of the world's economies and to create a one world government.
    The EPA is a tool of the left and it should be abolished.
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    • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 8 months ago
      It may be a tool, but seems able to do enough damage on it's own. Although, in retrospect, some individual companies and persons have done enough stupid things to cause the EPA to be born. (Love Canal comes to mind).
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      • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 8 months ago
        ummmmm ...... things like Love Canal have been the legitimate cause
        of a lot of legal actions, but the progressives have been the
        cause of the EPA, don't you think??? -- j
        .
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        • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 8 months ago
          Yes, I do agree John, but there will have to be some idiot rules and protections, because the Love Canal idiots just did it, and I am not sure they ever bottomed out on the blame.
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          • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 7 months ago
            um, some Decades Ago, Reason Magazine did an issue on Love Canal... the folks that put the pollution in place agreed to give up the property if, in perpetuity, no public use would be made of or on it. The locals got the property and promptly built communities on the land, and when the genetic shit started to hit the fan, promptly sued the chemical company...

            Study History, please. The idiots were NOT the folks at the chemical company!
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            • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
              Plus, how many times has there been cases of "stuff" being dug up in the past? Putting the waste into drums was NOT a good way to dump it, many drums ruptured and leaked, meaning they lost control of it. Just getting an agreement that no one will use it, is not any way to handle nasty stuff, but it was cheap, and efficient for them. The idiots were in the company, as no one who had any "good" knowledge of what was being done, would never have done it in the first place. Sorry to disagree, but if you are going to do things like that, you need to know what will happen to it, until it is completely harmless. Look at what happened to nuclear waste when someone decided to use a different type of kitty litter! The one nuclear waste site available was shut down, I don't know if they ever were able to reopen, but hazardous waste is something you just can not "toss in the ground". I do work with it, and am certified as a Haz Waste Handler. This isn't just about business, it has the potential to kill or seriously injure if not done right. So we get saddled with the EPA.
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              • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 7 months ago
                Well, of course, your points are valid, but ...
                The company DID try to do the best, cheapest, if not longest term solution for the community, and THE COMMUNITY, via its government, did THE OPPOSITE and Then Blamed The Chemical Company!!! THAT is the point I was trying to make... the nonsense of blaming the company for something which MIGHT have been avoidable (maybe forever... no way to tell) if the local government hadn't acted the way it did!!

                Likewise, when the PCBs in the Hudson River were discovered to have come from a GE transformer plant, there WAS a brief point made that leaving the nasties at the bottom of the Hudson might be a good solution, compared to dredging 'em up, stirring them into the surface water and top of the river channel, too!

                And here's a HazMat conundrum for you... Some months back, I went to my local hardware store to try to recycle some dead NiCd batteries.

                The folks there explained to me that they no longer did that. Why not? They couldn't justify the Cost of that much Green-ness. It cost them hundreds or thousands of dollars EVERY time they wanted the ni-cads removed, because they were charged basically for a full EPA HazMat team to come out, secure the area and make sure it was spotlessly clean after the 'cleanup.'

                Unintended Consequences, anyone? Have you ever read the Freakonomics series? Their analyses of unintended consequences and surprising 'connections and results' of many laws and "good ideas" is very mind-expanding. I'm recommending it to all my friends, relatives and gifting some with 'em...

                Open for discussion, or are you too much of 'an expert in your field' to be open to a discussion?

                Why does this feel like a Global Warming or Jesus Is Coming And The Bible Says So kind of interchange? Because yes, that's what it feels like.
                .... over....
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                • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
                  Always open to discussion, but I just wanted to point out that (my view) is the generator has a responsibility to both know and understand what their process is and what results. I know that that position was totally ignored up until the late 60's, but it still does not excuse it. Case in point, at Area51, they evidently generated a large amount of some kind of nasty waste (maybe they changed UFO fluids or something), so their brilliant idea was to "burn it". Did not go well at all, there are 30 or so people who have gone public because a lot of them died, and the rest all have some really bizarre conditions, so they sued. The lawsuit, last I heard, was tossed by a federal judge. I totally understand UC, and push where I work to stop and think solution through, because what looks really good from one angle may become unworkable from another. Many engineers I work with cannot comprehend their "solution" is not perfect.

                  Please do not take my comments negatively, I just wanted to point out that doing what is the norm does not make it the right thing to do, no one thought that discharging crap into water or burying it was a bad idea, out of sight out of mind so to speak. It just doesn't work that way.
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                  • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 7 months ago
                    I agree! And when I read the original 'expose' in Reason Magazine (about Love Canal) that pretty well set my views on UC and 'fairness' and blame-fixing...
                    There was some kind of similar pollution cleanup near the Raleigh-Durham Airport a few years ago. The contractor basically dug up a LOT of dirt, baked or burned the Bad Stuff out of it and put it back. It created a water-vapor plume a hundred or two feet in the air for weeks or months on-end. I haven't heard anything negative as a follow-up so far. Apparent success. I wish more 'cleanups' were as successful and quick, too!
                    Now about those UFO fluids... :))))))))))
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                    • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
                      Yep, it makes you wonder, industry can do a great job making things, but usually not so great at how to get rid of it, electronics comes to mind, there is a huge load of heavy metals buried in landfills and while the noble metals may stay stable the amalgams tend to break down. Another little mess is the mercury from florescents, which has gotten a lot better but a whole bunch went in the garbage. I know I used to break them as there was no good way to get rid of them. Just like your ni-cad issue. My factory had no method to dispose of e-waste until I set one up, and got no help from the haz waste dude, even though it is a 50K fine if you dump any in the trash now. They are still bumbling around with it, they have a vendor who will take it, but no system to make sure it was gotten to them. What a mess. And I am not a haz waste dude, just had to get certified to deal with Emergency Response stuff.
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          • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 8 months ago
            maybe when legal actions fail to take care of it, we need to
            employ Chicago or New Jersey methods? -- j
            .
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 8 months ago
              Sleeping with the fishes of Lake Michigan would under the old rules be cruel and unusual punishment.
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              • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 7 months ago
                and shutting down a farm because it rained would be the same. -- j
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                • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
                  Only if the farm had years of manure and it ran off the property. The problem goes back to responsibility. If a farmer is responsible, and manages their animals well, there is no problem, but when they leave it to pile up that the animals are standing hip deep in it, then it becomes an issue. In that case you have to shut it down.
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                  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 7 months ago
                    I once had fun driving a bobcat to muck out a barn which was
                    hip-deep in hay and poop -- and it made for some very fine
                    tomatoes, beans, squash and potatoes!!! -- j
                    .
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                    • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
                      Indeed, I give mine away to anyone who wants it. The idiot next door thought he would charge 50.00 a truckload, and you had to pick it up, no one did so it just gathered and gathered and..yuck. It makes a great compost, I have a couple differnt piles my wife "cultivates", some is recent, some is older and it becomes a rich black. We had some mutant zucchini get in there a few years back and we had a 23lb monster. No good to eat, it was like made of wood..
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                      • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 7 months ago
                        whatta squash! . yeah, we just plowed it in and the veggies
                        loved it. . gradually, we converted marginal soil to exceptional
                        stuff for a garden. . and now, all we have is one dog. . oh well....... -- j
                        .
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  • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 8 months ago
    Is this a trick question? The EPA should never have been established in the first place. Why was Nixon a Republican?
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    • Posted by fosterj717 8 years, 8 months ago
      Nixon underwent a massive transformation after his loss to Kennedy. He went to work for George (CFR) Schultz' "White shoe" law firm and came back a "Progressive" Republican in every sense of the word. From Wage and Price controls, the final abandonment of the gold standard to the hiring of Henry Kissinger, you really can't go much further to the left! This is what the Communists mean when they use the term "co-option". Need I go on?
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  • Posted by Flootus5 8 years, 8 months ago
    The EPA is the poster child for administrative rule run amok. Running neck and neck are the DOI, USFS, USFWS. EPA only tops the list by interfering with the entire country, not just the Western States. And perhaps USFWS.

    The War on the West goes at least back to the 70's with FLPMA. One could argue even further back with Taylor Grazing Act, the creation of the Forest Service, etc. But as we speak, they are pulling out all the stops with controlling access to western lands.

    Two aspects for reining it in. Congress duly passed NEPA and are unlikely to repeal it. But, one must ask where does it apply? There is no authority for it within the Constitution, so it can't apply to/within the States. That leaves territories only. Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. Second, and even then, administrative procedure must follow the letter and intent of the law. They cannot just go rogue and make up law by executive decree.

    And there is the rub, they are doing that in all these areas and the other two branches of government are letting executive administrations get away with it. There is the occasional victory, that only amount to little speed bumps in their road to total control.
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    • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 8 months ago
      Indeed, they have all become power hungry bureaucratic nightmares. I would have to point out (as above) that were it not for a few companies and people, there would be no need for them. It comes back to the old adage of "we have to have laws to protect the majority from the minority" and "a few bad apples spoil the crop". They have done a few good things each of the agencies above, but n the process morphed into the monsters today. I would not want to have them completely gone, but significantly pruned back.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 7 months ago
    On a practical level one of the problems is that there are no real consequences if the EPA loses such a lawsuit. No one is fined or goes to jail and they will just slowly ignore this case. Rand Paul is coming to the Gulch the 22 of September and he has been a sponsor of the REINS Act, but this only requires congress to vote when a regulation has more than a $500 million impact on the economy.

    I proposed in my a Regulatory Bill of Rights (http://hallingblog.com/2010/12/02/reg...) to give individual citizens real power to fight regulatory over reach with real teeth
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    • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
      Dale, I like it, well stated and clear. I did not see it in there, but consider something along the lines of " a regulatory agency will be treated as a single person entity in legal actions, with the senior agency personally responsible". The reason they are so blatant is that they are never held accountable as an entity, it is a fractured responsibility, which means no one is ever accountable. That would also limit the number of political hacks who get appointed, knowing they are personally accountable for what happens. Much like a Commanding Officer is responsible for his ship, even when he is not on the bridge.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 8 months ago
    Protecting the environment is not one of the powers listed in Article I, Section 8. So it is unconstitutional for the EPA to exist. (Of course this relies upon a correct definition of "interstate commerce", so first, Wickard v. Filburn must be overturned.)
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 8 months ago
    The epa was to far from reality the day it was in retrospect started. ALL government agencies always want more authority than they are given and when they over step their bounds the agency that started them the congress will NOT rein them in. Then when you get a socialist/facist the likes of 0 in power he will agree with what ever the agency wants to do and let the courts decide an out come which in most cases agrees with the agency. So the epa HAS gone to far but they will not be reined in.
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  • Posted by $ prof611 8 years, 8 months ago
    "...calling the EPA regulation "inexplicable, arbitrary and devoid of a reasoning process." " These three adjectival phrases could be applied to ANY regulation.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 8 months ago
    This agency served its purpose. It should eb eliminated and replaced with an agency fundamentally responsible for pointing out "involuntary submission to contract" (e.g. pollution, noise pollution through physics, POINT OUT ONLY! Then an appeal to Congress to legislate, not an uninhibited executive legislation such as we have now!
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