How Edison uses water to store excess power

Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 8 months ago to Technology
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This is a good one, how do you store excess energy for use when needed? I think their biggest flaw is they are using an open source to provide the water, which is subject to drought and evaporation. Something with a large cavern that is closed would seem much more efficient, and if it is a closed system, it should not have any losses that amount to much, thus being available in all situations. But this is a Galt like opportunity for some genius, they are exchanging electric for mechanical and back, the storage is based on the energy needed to pump back up. Something like a cascade with centrifugal pumps with a final stage lifting back might be better....Hnm..needs some math here..
SOURCE URL: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-big-creek-20150823-story.html


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  • Posted by Lucky 8 years, 8 months ago
    nickuris. Yes but it is not a new idea, I first met it in about 1985. I like the idea of using deep mines, similar to caverns, or a worked-out gas field. The volume available may not be as great as in big dams but the head is much larger.
    For solar and wind generation, the problem of 24 hour cycles or random wind would be much reduced with storage of that type..
    It could be that the research funds (government money) go to the best propagandists who are always on the verge of a breakthru, rather than the more prosaic searching for suitable geological sites.
    Or, it could be that these so-called renewable sources are not close to being economic even if cheap storage worked.

    Worth a mention here - George Soros has just made a very big investment in US coal mines. !
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      Indeed, a good idea that seems unrutilized. For Soros, one would need to know why did he just do that when the EPA and Obamanation just announced their big restrictions on emmissions? That would seem counter intuitive unless there is a connection not known, which maybe would finally prove their collusion together (which we all have seen go on for years). Soros is as bad as any other manipulator in this system, despite the lefts love of his "altruism".
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      • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 8 months ago
        Most of these restrictions are on new production. Back when Obama was running for POTUS the first time virtually nobody picked on a critical word in his "necessarily more expensive" coal speech - "new". It isn't about negatively impacting large corporations which can easily manage the minimal application to existing infrastructure and also work to reduce the re-model applicability. It is and was about limiting the market to those already dominating it.

        Limiting the amount of new plants and making it more expensive for new companies to get into the industry are generally financially positive effects for those already dominating the industry. Soros undoubtedly knows this.

        And that is before taking into account a variant of "too big to fail". If the new restrictions were to be leveraged against the big players (now "stronger" an more politically powerful thanks to keeping competition out) in coal there would undoubtedly be government subsidies to help transition to the new standards instead of outright plant shutdowns.

        Crony capitalism: not just for Republicans.

        On the other hand, if there was one industry which, if it shrugged, truly could stop the engine of the world - or at least of America - it would be coal. Imagine: "In order to meet the increasingly draconian restrictions, we're just going to shut down power plants until we hit those levels. In fact, because we care so much, we'll just shut them all down. We hear there are some nice wind and solar farm to west, enjoy your 'clean energy'"

        Now how does the economy look?
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  • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 8 months ago
    Old idea. PECO does that here in Pennsylvania on the Susquehanna river. When the electricity from the hydro dam isn't needed on the grid it is used to pump water up to a higher reservoir where the energy is then recovered when needed.

    Not sure how you could use deep mines or caverns. It relies on gravity to work.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      Indeed, I was thinking that too, in all events, you still need one above the other and pumping, all it is is stored energy being transformed from electric to kinetic. It is still a loss inducing process, but at least they use the most affordable to lose.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 8 months ago
    I didn't catch if the article mentioned it but one of the key components of the math on this is the simple change in energy cost rate when the pumping back uphill is supposed to occur. Often it's late at night. I similar operation exists at the forebay at Oroville.

    The future of power is a smart grid with intelligent, 2-way communicating, microinverters connected to distributed PV generation, in conjunction with distributed storage also with smart microinverters. See Hawaii as the most advanced test bed on this. Good stuff.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 8 months ago
    Japan has facilities like this too. It is a very effective means of energy storage. If the water source is really an issue, use seawater. There is no shortage of that.

    Compressed air also works, but is less efficient round-trip.
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  • Posted by fivedollargold 8 years, 8 months ago
    Fivedollargold suggests that excess energy be utilized to lift racks of gold bullion. When needed, this kinetic energy would be released to drive a magnetized piston into a chamber with the same polarity at the bottom. Carbon dioxide gas injected into this chamber would be compressed at high temperature and turned to coal which can be used to produce electricity. The burning of the coal returns the carbon to the atmosphere, where it is recycled.
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  • Posted by NealS 8 years, 8 months ago
    Power generation can be efficiently done in volume. A desert covered in solar cells is a great idea, but then dependent on the sun, which by the way seems to rise on the horizon almost every day even here in the Northwest. I still feel that tidal action is one of the most reliable energy sources we have. If we could leave the natural rivers alone and just dig some gigantic new ones (or how about using San Francisco Bay?) that should make the green people happy. Generators could generate power as the tide rises filling an artificial river (or S.F. Bay), and generate power as the tides goes out. Energy storage could be achieved by using some of this power to pump water into higher reservoirs. As far as storing water in caves, might it not be stored under compression of air or gas and released like as in somewhat similar squirt gun technology? History of the Edison's just show us that many things just need to be reinvented. Have our current scientist gained sufficient knowledge from the Einstein's, Edison's, Westinghouse's, Tesla's, Hawking's,
    Oppenheimer's, Rutherford's, etc. to expand on what they have already discovered, to get us energy independent and practically free around the world? How long will this take? What new things will we fight about after we're there? If scientific history was studied as bad as political history and history of mans wars, we might still be living in caves.
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  • Posted by ohiocrossroads 8 years, 8 months ago
    Pumping water is in general, very inefficient. Pumps have an overall efficiency of about 30%, and the flow losses in the piping systems further reduce the system efficiency. Then after the water is pumped from a low reservoir to a high reservoir, evaporation steals some of the energy you have stored.
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  • Posted by evlwhtguy 8 years, 8 months ago
    OK....so where do you find this Cavern...at high elevation to generate the water power? The location has to be at a higher elevation so the water can fall [down a pipe] and turn a turbine. I studied Micro Hydro electric power 35 years ago in college. Typically they use non peak electricity [often nuclear as you really can't turn the plant down to a lower setting] to pump water to a high elevation storage pond and release it to a high head turbine when there is peak demand. The challenge is to find the correct location. The bigger the elevation change the less water has to be pumped and the smaller the storage has to be.
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  • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 8 months ago
    There were a couple of projects of this type in the southeast US (Rocky Mountain [Georgia Power] and Racoon Mountain [TVA]). When they were constructed (90's if memory serves) the intent was to provide "peaking power", thereby reducing the cycling of plants that operate more efficiently at constant load.
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