Growing in the Womb | Through the Wormhole

Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 8 months ago to Education
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Yeah, yeah...I know. This is science channel, not remotely mystical. What we actually know matters when we derive postilion. Questioning our premise from time to time is necessary to validate our stances and not a bad thing.

This is not an attack on Objectivism. This is actual information, should anyone be interested enough to watch it. Its 2:54.
SOURCE URL: http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/videos/growing-in-the-womb/


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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 8 months ago
    Yes AJ, we agree that life is an awesomely complex thing, but we're still faced with the definitional problem of 'what and when' does it become a human life. You have a belief. I have logical rational reasoning that incorporates all the aspects and components of what it means to be human, not just a biological entity.

    We'll never reach agreement on this issue, So as someone on the site suggested to me, let's sit down around a campfire, enjoy a drink (or more) and the conversation.
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    • Posted by conscious1978 8 years, 8 months ago
      I wonder if around that campfire the belief-based rhetoric could be put aside long enough for someone to ask why do humans gain rights at birth (whenever birth occurs)? What is the source of those rights? Why can't the rights of one person infringe on the rights of another?
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      • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
        This is probably a calloused remark, likely due to how Rand defined the term and how I'm about to use it, but I have to think that Objectivists have no rights, they only possess responsibilities and obligations to self and to others they care about. Standing upright, before society, with no belief in anything outside of self, responsibility seems more applicable term that rights. I'm sure this is one of those "definition" situations. This should be its own thread.
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        • Posted by conscious1978 8 years, 8 months ago
          As a genuine reaction, after two years on this forum, I'm surprised at how fundamentally you misunderstand Objectivism.
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          • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
            Yeah, jump to that conclusion. Erase everything and make a man. What meaning does rights have? None. Its responsibility to keep self alive and obligation to others who that person attached to himself/herself.

            In that context, rights are a societal construct used to define the responsibilities an individual can keep. Only in a society does an Objectivist need rights, just like everyone else. It's the only reason why an Objectivist needs a Constitution.
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            • Posted by conscious1978 8 years, 8 months ago
              What you've written illustrates your premises, AJ. Why be calloused or sarcastic in your remarks?

              You're swinging at windmills, again—most of your criticisms have been of ideas that are not Objectivist or Ayn Rand's. In fairness, at least convey an understanding of the Objectivist ideas you disagree with, or discussion comes to an end.
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              • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
                Not swinging at windmills at all...just approaching a topic from a broader perspective. You see if any person is about responsibility and obligation then allowing yourself to become impregnated, when there are so many alternatives available today, is irresponsible and goes entirely against the secular approach to life, no?

                As for calloused, it wouldn't matter much how I said it or even if I asked it in Ask the Gulch, there would be those going for my throat.

                I wasn't in any way being sarcastic in anything I wrote. I just approach things in a different way.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      I was set to let it go, concluding that I'll never understand the position from the Objective perspective - not sure I even want to. I'm always going to favor individual responsibility and accountability. As I said, below, I thought this short clip did a really good job of presenting the process and inserting reason into it.

      No more on the subject from me.
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  • Posted by Mamaemma 8 years, 8 months ago
    This is nothing new at all.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      There is nothing new about reproduction since the species began. Whats changed is the mentality of people toward their children when their own conduct threatens their personal freedom.
      I posted this because it was a secular reminder about when life began. I thought it did a fine, but brief, job of inserting reason into the process of life.
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      • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
        What "mentality" toward what "children", what "conduct", and what "premises" are you talking about? What "individual responsibility and accountability" are you talking about as you again falsely oppose the "Objectivist perspective" to "individual responsibility and accountability" in general? You are attacking Objectivism in your anti-abortion campaign while pretending not to, with your snide barbs and bitter sarcasm in the name of "science", aren't you? It is obvious what he is doing. He has a record.

        For those who are serious about understanding Ayn Rand's philosophy, which Ashinoff contemptuously admits "I am not sure I even want to", the video is an elementary summary of basic biology known for a very long long time. It summarizes the development of a human embryo from fertilization of an egg through the development of the fetus as a potential person before birth. It says that the genetic structure contains "all the information needed to create a human being", which everyone has known for a very long time. It does not support Ashinoff's ongoing anti-abortion, anti-Ayn Rand campaign.

        The well known development of the fetus from living cells with a genetic structure is based on science. The attribution of a "right to be born" to a fetus is religious thinking based on feelings, not science. The anti-abortion campaign typically package-deals them as it screams over and over, "look, look, living cells, it's life; don't you dare not have a child or you are irresponsible; 'science' makes you do it". Genetic "information needed to create a human being" and the developing fetus as a potential human being are not a person with rights. "Human" cell and "human" fetus do not mean "human person".

        There is no "responsibility and accountability", i.e., unchosen duty as a mandate, for a woman to give birth to a child she does not want. That is an authoritarian religious injunction violating the rights of the woman to her own body. The "science video" does not address the anti-abortionist mandate and does not support it.

        This does not, obviously, mean Ayn Rand "opposed individual responsibility and accountability". Evidently Ashinoff does oppose it -- for himself -- as he snidely tries to pretend that this was not another attack on Ayn Rand with sarcastic insinuations and sweeping generalizations posing as merely promoting "science" as a means of "questioning" unmentioned "premises". It is not innocent, all of this has been explained to him many times.
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