"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."

Posted by sdesapio 8 years, 8 months ago to Politics
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From the article:

During the first Republican presidential debate of the 2016 election cycle, Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky stood out a bit when he cited America’s second president.

It came during a heated exchange with New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie about how much government intrusiveness was needed to keep Americans safe from terrorism.

"I want to collect more records from terrorists, but less records from innocent Americans," said Paul, who has been a leading voice in his party for privacy from government intrusion. "The Fourth Amendment was what we fought the Revolution over. John Adams said it was the spark that led to our war for independence, and I'm proud of standing for the Bill of Rights, and I will continue to stand for the Bill of Rights."
SOURCE URL: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/07/rand-paul/rand-paul-says-fourth-amendment-was-what-we-fought/


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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 8 months ago
    Despite Governor Christie's passionate defense of the right of government to collect private data, I will simply present one bit of personal experience to show how invasive the data gathering has become: I recently received a letter from the Medicare office, noting their distress that I had not taken advantage of their many preventive medical offerings, listing each of several dozen items like diabetic consultation, e.g., with the exact dates I could have asked for such tests, examinations, and treatments. I am over 70, and uncommonly healthy, with family medical history of long, healthy lives (many over 90, with no recorded instances of cancer or heart disease), so I simply didn't need these services. I have a checkup every six months, which I pass with flying colors.

    My point, however, is that I was promised that my health records were not to be examined by anyone but the physicians that provided treatment to me, so where did this letter come from? I know my doctor didn't take the time to report on my non-compliance with unnecessary tests, procedures, and counseling, so I can only conclude that a non-physician produced the letter, with the help of a computer program that scanned my medical records looking for compliance.

    Truth is the rarest element to be found in government, and the larger the government becomes, and the more power it is granted, the rarer that scare element becomes. The biggest abusers of government power are the unelected mandarins within the agencies, ruling their fiefdoms with total disregard for those affected by their decisions. I see the election of any head of state who is ready to destroy those fiefdoms by wholesale mass reduction of personnel as the only hope of preventing the total loss of our dignity and privacy.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
      You hit it right on the head. Once our information is out there, we lose control over how its used, and the government really doesnt have OUR interests at heart. I got a similar letter, but I have to admit I didnt connect the dots to see where this could go.
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 8 months ago
        Lest I unsettle you, my second thought about this letter was "What follows?" Obamacare required a transfer of the mythical Medicare funds to the tune of $500M, and a reduction in outlay has to come from somewhere. Could the next letter be a threat that if I didn't comply with the required services, I could be dropped from Medicare as a risk? I have no doubt that at some point I will be notified that I will be denied certain medical treatments because, in the government's judgment, it would be "counterproductive" to perform such treatment on someone with so few years left.
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    • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 8 months ago
      Well, there is a massive government/medical complex much larger than the government/media complex, or the government/military-industrial complex. They are in everything. I have a story about that and the Net Neutrality act that would frost you...
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 8 months ago
    If you go to Boston to Faneuil Hall and take their tour, the first thing they will do is give you a name badge to represent whose role you are supposed to identify with in ... James Otis' argument about writs of assistance. If you participate in the tour, they tell you about Otis' influence on Adams. Certainly, in Adams' mind, the Fourth Amendment was what sparked the American Revolution. The other items, such as taxation without representation, although already present did not coalesce the cause until after James Otis. Of course, the Boston Massacre came later.

    On the tour, I had the great privilege of getting Otis' name badge. Thus the story in Boston is exactly as Rand Paul told it.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 8 months ago
      The "Boston massacre" was staged by a group of provocateurs who threw bricks at armed men while hiding in a crowd during a holiday parade. John Adams was right when he got the troops' lieutenant acquitted for shooting back. The troops didn't come there intending to fight anybody.

      At least some of today's controversial police actions are much more wrong on the part of the police. But we must resist the black people's narratives that say (1) all or most abuses by police are aimed only at them, and (2) justified killings such as those of Martin and Brown should be lumped in with the unjustified killings.

      If lower-class black people get to "own" this movement of resistance, their eventual revolution, if successful, will make things a lot worse, not better.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 8 months ago
        Certainly I agree with regard to all you said about the "Boston massacre" and John Adams' defense of the lieutenant. As for the African Americans vs. cops situation, you are, of course, right as well. Happy Ferguson Anniversary.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
        "entitlement" is going to destroy this country. Unfortunately for the black people, our government has coddled them into feeling they are 'entitled". Its a shame because now its very hard to look at a black person and not have an immediate feeling they will use their entitled philosophy to do bad things to me.
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        • Posted by scojohnson 8 years, 8 months ago
          That's true. I often feel horrible when I'm 'surprised' to meet a black person that has a career... Our black population here on the left coast seems to be substantially more coddled than the norm though.
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    • -2
      Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
      I recently visited the Jefferson museum in VA, and came away from that visit with the idea that the beginnings of the USA were not rooted in philosophy so much as a desire of the founders to rid themselves of the evils of the British rule. So they met and compromised on what to put into the documents. It was based not on freedom per se, but freedom from England. Religious freedom was touted in the documents, BUT when it came to polygamy with the Mormons, that was not to be tolerated. Economic freedom was OK, but not for the american indians. When it came to the civil war, what business was it really if the south wanted OUT? The north simply decided they wanted the riches of the south for themselves and waged war. Our history isnt even closely restrained by the words of the constitution- and especially now.
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      • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 8 months ago
        term2, I suggest you read the greatest speech in American History, Webster's reply to Haynes ending with "one Union. now and forever." Ideas moved men in the age of reason and honor and the idea of a great nation founded on a moral principle was not to be torn apart by those who enslaved others. In those days people cared about their character. Read J. Adams Autobiography on how he yearned to improve his character and aspired to honors and achievement through reason. Remember the phrase, "We Pledge our Lives fortunes and sacred honor." There are few if any that can say they have lives with fortune or honor. PS the South had no riches. Read Sherman's autobiography to better understand the South.
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      • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
        You got a false impression of the founding of the nation and the civil war.
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        • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
          The false impression I got was the story they taught me as a kid. The constitution is a compromise designed to not repeat the English colonial model
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          • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
            The Constitution was a document specifying the functions and limits of government. It was not a philosophical document. The compromises in the framing of the Constitution were on matters of specifying government functions, not philosophy. It presupposed a political philosophy of individualism of individualism from the Enlightenment and was designed to protect against actions by the Federal government. It was not about Mormons. It was not about freedom from England, whose rule had been overthrown years before. It was not about freedom of Indian individuals versus others; it had some provisions for dealing with Indian tribes, who were still carrying on wars that were a threat at the time. It had nothing to do with the Civil War which came in the following century and was not for fought over economic motives according to Marx.
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  • Posted by bsmith51 8 years, 8 months ago
    Making the haystack bigger only makes finding the needle more problematic. But to those in government it really isn't about the needle anyway, except as an excuse to control the haystack.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 8 months ago
    Indeed, truth is the rarest element to be found in government. Ron Paul in his 2015 book “Plowshares” and DiLorenzo in his book “Organized Crime: The Unvarnished Truth About Government” fully exposes the degree — all of which seems to follow LeFevre’s 1959 book “The Nature of Man and His Government.” Rand was not the only foreteller of the future.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
      Ayn Rand wan't trying to predict the future. She was trying to prevent the collapse with a superior philosophy radically challenging the prevailing ideas causing it.
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      • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 8 months ago
        Other than the fact this has nothing to do with what I said, what evidence do you have showing the intent of Rand?
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
          She said so. A lot of people read Atlas Shrugged and see nothing but a 'prediction' with no idea how she could be so accurate, and see no difference with any other prediction. They don't see that the 'prediction' was a consequence of her philosophical observations as she tried to prevent it from becoming true by urging adoption of a radically different philosophy.
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          • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 8 months ago
            Where did she say this?
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            • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
              Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, Chap 15 "Is Atlas Shrugging?"

              [Lecture given at The Ford Hall Forum, Boston, on April 19, 1964. Published in The Objectivist Newsletter, August 1964.]

              "[A]lthough the political aspects of Atlas Shrugged are not its central theme nor its main purpose, my attitude toward these aspects—during the years of writing the novel—was contained in a brief rule I had set for myself: 'The purpose of this book is to prevent itself from becoming prophetic.'"
              ...
              "The political aspects of Atlas Shrugged are not its theme, but one of the consequences of its theme. The theme is: the role o! the mind in man's existence and, as a corollary, the presentation of a new code of ethics—the morality of rational self-interest."
              ...
              "The story of Atlas Shrugged shows what happens to the world when the men of the mind—the originators and innovators in every line of rational endeavor—go on strike and vanish, in protest against an altruist-collectivist society."

              "The story of Atlas Shrugged presents the conflict of two fundamental antagonists, two opposite schools of philosophy, or two opposite attitudes toward life. As a brief means of identification, I shall call them the "reason-individualism-capitalism axis" versus the "mysticism-altruism-collectivism axis." The story demonstrates that the basic conflict of our age is not merely political or economic, but moral and philosophical—that the dominant philosophy of our age is a virulent revolt against reason—that the so-called redistribution of wealth is only a superficial manifestation of the mysticism-altruism-collectivism axis—that the real nature and deepest, ultimate meaning of that axis is anti-man, anti-mind, anti-life."
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 8 months ago
    Paul was right, Christie was wrong. No doubt. However, Christy's forceful voice overwhelmed the content of his rant. Paul was rational and on the money, but was blotted out by Christy's delivery.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
      Christie could easily get a job on Real Husbands of New Jersey. He would fit right in with the gross, low class people they had on the Real Housewives of New Jersey.
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 8 months ago
        I remember a couple years ago when a lady spoke up at a rally and Christie, on the microphone in front of everybody, said she'd be "on her knees later that night". All the neocons laughed. It was disgusting. Not a mention of that now...
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        • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
          Kelly hated Trump and was under instructions from her superiors to make him look bad. It was obvious. Thats not journalism, and he should have just called her on her attitude and how that kind of question doesnt add to the debate. If he thinks Rosie ODonnell is a fat pig, so be it. If the shoe fits, she should wear it, otherwise shrug it off. I would rather our president tell me like it is, or at least what he really thinks, than hide behind political correctness like the rest of them do. For ONCE, we need someone who will tell me if the emperor has no clothes.
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  • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 8 months ago
    You do not even need to be in obscure cyberland to see how commonplace violation of the 4th Amendment has become.

    As I posted recently to FB:

    If somebody busts into a house in the middle of the night without presenting a warrant and gets shot, they are not a hero or a victim of anything. The entire purpose of getting a warrant is to present a warrant. A warrant that authorizes its own non-presentation violates both the spirit and the letter of the 4th amendment.

    It's like the Seinfeld bit about the car rental agency. You know how to take the reservation, you just don't know how to keep it. And keeping it is the most important part of the reservation.

    Except in this case, the police know how to obtain the warrant, they just don't seem to know how to present it. And presenting it is the entire purpose of the warrant.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 8 months ago
      I've read the new version of civil rights in the Patriot Act. What warrant? What rights, What attorney? What Jury? What Judge. Probable Cause? Gone. now it's suspicion of.... In short and up held by three Presidential election cycles - What Constitution? You joking me? Can't argue specifics of something that no longer exists. And under the Government Party Republicans and Democrats alike I see no chance of getting it back.
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  • Posted by Rglab 8 years, 8 months ago
    This is why we have the Bill of Rights-we are slowly losing these rights.

    Directive 10-289 is coming unless we stop this erosion of our Constitution.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 8 months ago
      What Bill of Right? Hasn't existed since the Patriot Act went from probable cause with a warrant to 'mere suspicion with no proof required.' No requirement to say jack to a judge much less ask permission or read rights or provide attorneys.

      Gotta get with the times you are arguing history.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 8 years, 8 months ago
    I think Christie went after Paul, because he was so red faced over the Obama hug, about which he should have been questioned about HAMP. and Obama. Was that hug, relief or out of fear of more to come?
    In any case, we have not only to be cautious about the government checking our information without warrants, but Win. 10, if users do NOT go in and turn off all the default settings which allow sharing of a lot of information. People are making it easy for information to be taken from them.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 8 months ago
      I'll never forget how my stomach turned when I saw Christie hug the grinning dictator on the tube.
      He is another "lesser of two evils" primary election candidate I would refuse to vote for as well as Sir Jeb of the Royal House of Bush.
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      • Posted by $ Stormi 8 years, 8 months ago
        Knowing about HAMP and hurricanes, I expected some spunk from Christie, instead, the hug. I lost total respect from then on. Ditto on Busch and their one world dynasty.
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      • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
        Christie responded that he remembers hugging victims of the storm, as if a politician engaging in the usual campaign antics like kissing babies, grabbing hands and hugging is an excuse for drooling over Obama.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 8 months ago
    In order to better appreciate the nature of this argument it is essential to understand what "Meta data" is, who collects it and why. Virtually all companies that serve the public collect data on the performance of their service. The primary reason for doing this is to remain competitive. Phone companies track call statistics in order to identify weakness and strengths in their system. The post office and commercial delivery companies like UPS and FEDEX track activity as part of their efforts to maintain service quality and to respond to changes in demographics and group behavior. This is meta data and it reveals much about the properties of the theater of operations of the customer base. These data contain both wide statistical information and also about the activities of individual users of the system. Curtailing this data gathering activity would negatively impact the ability of the providers to consistently deliver the services for which they are paid. Unfortunately, this information can also be used to intrude on the privacy of the users of the system and that is where government access becomes a problem. It is important to understand that these data are collected for legitimate reasons and form an essential tool for service providers. But like any tool it can be misused.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
      "Meta data" is a kind of data, not something else. In particular, the kind of personal data they are collecting and turning over to the government and others, including who you are communicating with when, how, how long and more is personal, not statistics. If they were only collecting statistics on trends no one would care and the government wouldn't want it.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 8 months ago
        Meta data =/= statistics. Meta data is like the "From" and "To" lines of your e-mail messages. It is personal information, and enough can be learnt that way that it needs to be protected as fully as message bodies.
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      • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 8 months ago
        WRT "If they were only collecting statistics on trends no one would care and the government wouldn't want it." True but the raw data contains much more detailed information about individual users. It is these data that are used to create statistics on trends. For example, lets assume that I make frequent lengthy calls to a colleague in another state. That activity makes identifiable demands on every element in that communications path. If the quality of that communications channel is compromised I will seek an alternative. The phone company does not want that to happen. They don't care what I talk about but they do care about how long I talk, what are the end points of the connection and if there are any problems with the quality of the process. The phone company has a legitimate need for this information but the government does not.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 8 months ago
    More facts would bring a broader perspective. If you read the Declaration, no mention appears about being secure in their homes and papers. However, much of it echoes the Bill of Rights of 1689. -- http://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_centu....

    Poltifact may be right - "mostly true" - but quoting John Adams alone does not express the entire range of ideas and sentiments among the founders. As in another discussion here about "Libraries of the Founders" John Dickinson refused to sign the Declaration, though he did later serve in three capacities as a soldier in the Revolution. So, it is important not to over-generalize from a single instance. That said, I believe that if any one complaint enunciated the essence of the revolt, it was the quartering of troops in private homes, a direct violation of the English Bill of Rights of 1689.

    Moreover, those men, and John Adams among the leaders, wrote thousands of words - in some cases a million - over decades of their lives. Like Rand Paul in an televised debate, what was a passing observation or suggested opinion and what was the deepest faith depends on the breadth and depth of context across and along the lifetime of the author.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 8 months ago
      The quartering of troops certainly was quite important, and it convinced many to join Samuel Adams' rebellion. It took many injustices before the Revolution started, just like it will take before the next one.
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      • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 8 months ago
        I agree quartering was important, but please remember what drove the colonists to open rebellion in April 1775 at Concord. It was British soldiers rummaging through the houses and property of colonists in Concord in search of weapons.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 8 months ago
          To drive people to open rebellion requires a number of offenses, each building supporters all along the way. Adams said that it was Otis' argument regarding writs of assistance in 1761 that started things for him. By 1775, the British went beyond writs of assistance to rummaging through colonials' homes, which is the next illogical step for a tyrannical government.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
          It didn't help the British that they shot people at Lexington who had stood down due to the overwhelming numbers of the British soldiers at Lexington common. The news widely spread throughout the area (even without an internet) before the British got to Concord, and minutemen were soon swarming in from surrounding towns all day. The battle at the North Bridge began when smoke was seen rising from the town over the hill and the minuteman thought the British were burning the town. The search for weapons and supplies was itself relatively peaceful -- the kind of coercion bureaucrats today would call "amicable". But the whole situation escalated dramatically when the British marched from Boston to Lexington and Concord. After a long serious of accumulating causes of the revolution leading up to the 'Concord Fight' turning in force against British soldiers, the battle at the North Bridge ignited the revolution, which is why it became known as the "shot heard 'round the world".
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          • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 8 months ago
            You are absolutely correct in all respects except your assertion that the minutemen at the bridge knew that anyone had been killed at Lexington. I don't believe that was true. Certainly Revere did not tell them since he had been arrested long before he reached Concord.
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            • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
              Concord was told by the Lincoln minutemen of the shooting in Lexington. There was a delay of several hours before the British arrived in Concord.

              Paul Revere's ride (and others by different routes that arrived much later) from Boston was to confirm that the British had left Boston for Concord. He arrived in Lexington before the British did and continued on to Concord with two others, Prescott and Dawes, who knew the local woods. Prescott lived in Concord. All three were confronted by British in Lincoln (between Lexington and Concord) but got away. Prescott was the first to escape, not being captured at all, and continued to Concord to deliver the news of the British forces on the way. They heard the volley of shots in Lexington, but didn't know the details.

              There are several dramatic stories published on the battle at Lexington and Concord, but two excellent scholarly accounts are:

              Frank Warren Coburn, The Battle of April 19, 1775 in Lexington, Concord, Lincoln, Arlington, Cambridge, Somerville and Charlestown, Massachusetts, 1912 and

              Allen French, The Day of Concord and Lexington, 1925.
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              • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 8 months ago
                All good history, but again knowing of the skirmish at Lexington, even that there had been firing, is not the same as knowing any colonists had actually been killed. A small distinction but one which would have mattered greatly to the Minutemen. The immediate causes of the colonists' decision to actually fire on the King's troops at the North Bridge were the British short term occupation of Concord, the smoke from the fires in town as the British searched for weapons and munitions, the British ripping up of some of the planks of the North Bridge over the Concord River within sight of the Minutemen, and, most importantly, the British actually firing upon the Minutemen, killing two of them and injuring others. At that point, one of the officers of the militia ordered that they "fire, for God's sake fellow soldiers, fire" and the war started.
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                • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
                  The Lincoln minutemen reported at Concord what had happened at Lexington. Only Prescott did not know the details earlier because he only heard a volley of fire in the distance.

                  The minutemen at the North Bridge knew of casualties at Lexington and thought their homes in the town were being burned (the smoke came from "bonfires of military stores"). That was the trigger that caused them to start down the hill from the Buttrick farm towards the British on the other side of the bridge, required to get into the town to defend it. After a volley of fire from the British wounding one minuteman came the command: "Fire, for God's sake, fire".

                  Lexington and Concord have been arguing over where the war started ever since. But it was all one event with the British escalation of marching out to Lexington and Concord to capture leaders and destroy military supplies. The minutemen had known they were coming and were prepared for it (many of the supplies had already been hidden), but didn't know when until the Paul Revere alert. The result, in some form, had been inevitable before the British left Boston.
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                  • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 8 months ago
                    Well, since neither Dawes nor Revere ever reached Concord before the battle it is only relevant what Prescott knew and he did not know anything about casualties at Lexington. As to what was reported by Lincoln minutemen and understood by the officers at the Bridge the record is at best unclear and in some instances contradictory according to the somewhat contemporaneous statements of the participants. In any event, we agree about the smoke and, I assume, the planks of the Bridge and, of course the British volley that caused the colonial casualties as the immediate causes of the cry to "fire." Your "all one event" theory proves too much I think. We can probably agree that if the British had not moved on from Lexington to Concord nothing more would have happened that day to start the war. That is not to say the War would have not commenced on some later day, of course. And your observation that the Minutemen "were prepared" is technically correct but not relevant to the issue of the start of the war. Remember, these "prepared" militiamen did nothing but passively observe the events even after they thought incorrectly that the town was being set ablaze by the British! It was not until the face to face confrontation at the Bridge that the momentous events of the day commenced. The start of the War, in my view, in actual fact began not at the Boston Massacre, not at Lexington, not in Boston, but at the North Bridge because there and then occurred the first use of lethal force by the colonists against British soldiers. That seems a common sense line of demarcation. And we know precisely when, and on whose orders, that shot "heard round the world" was fired. By some accounts we know who actually fired it. But let's let the others on this site have a respite from our historical quibbles. And quibbles they are because what really matters is not the sequence of events but what those patriots were fighting for and what they created. We benefit from their actions still today. Thanks very much indeed for the conversation.
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                    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
                      Instead of trying to deduce what you think happened, just go by the history; so can others rather than "deciding" based on opinions and "quibbles".

                      According to the historical record the "bloodshed" at Lexington occurred about 5AM. The battle at the North Bridge in Concord occurred between 9 and 10AM, 4 to 5 hours later. The minutemen consisted of well-organized companies from the numerous surrounding towns, which descended on Concord after having been alerted, according to plan. They were not "passive observers" and their preparations and actions were not "irrelevant to the start of the war". Several companies took positions and maneuvered on the hillside at the Buttrick farm overlooking the North Bridge, almost 500 men total. Sixty two of them were from Lincoln, the town between Lexington and Concord, and they did know that there had been "bloodshed" at Lexington.

                      The British did not turn back after Lexington because the plan was to go to Concord as the main objective and they had not been stopped at Lexington by Captain Parker's band of 60-70 men against 300-400 British. The British went through, and had planned to go through, Lexington on the way to Concord. The First and Second Provincial Congresses had just been held in Concord. The last meeting before the battle had just adjourned 4 days earlier. Concord was the center of revolutionary activity and organizing. The British hoped to capture leaders like John Hancock, President of the Provincial Congress, in Lexington, but were headed to Concord, where the main supplies were stored and where they especially hoped to capture Colonel Barret, the local head of the minutemen.

                      That is why the Revolution began at the North Bridge in Concord when it did, as a result of the British escalation marching on Concord -- and the preparations and courage of those fought back despite their lack of military experience.
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                      • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 8 months ago
                        As you correctly pointed out earlier, there is ongoing controversy and disagreement regarding sequencing of events and the significance of those events. This is due in large part to the changing stories of eye witnesses regarding what they observed and what part different people had in the events of the relevant days. Affidavits were taken at various points in time years apart. It is very difficult for historians to come to complete agreement regarding some of the details because of those conflicting accounts. However, as you note, some important facts are pretty certain. Among them is my claim that the Minutemen at the North Bridge did not fire until fired upon well after they observed what they thought was the burning of the town and the attempted ripping up of planks on the Bridge and certainly well after they learned whatever they learned of the Lexington skirmish. They were in fact simply observing the goings on for an extended period before the fatal engagement. I think we agree on those facts. Based on that I observed that in my opinion the War started when the colonials fired at the Bridge since it represented the first initiation of lethal force against the British troops. I fail to see why you think this is controversial or unsupported. In any event, what matters is that the War began, the principles for which these brave men fought and the country that resulted. Some details of the day may never be resolved and I still maintain it a "quibble" to argue, for instance, about the identity of the Minuteman who fired the first shot in Concord against the British. Many think they know, but many more are unsure.
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                        • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 8 months ago
                          Either way - our boys gave em hell dammit! :)
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                          • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 8 months ago
                            Xthinker has it right. It does not matter whether Isaac Davis was shot and killed after the colonials fired (as ewv asserts) or before any colonial fired (as I assert). Neither does it matter which individual Minuteman fired the first shot at the Bridge (there remains a split of thought on that issue). What matters is that there, at the North Bridge, Americans first used lethal force in resistance to the British. Let's give them some credit. The "all one event" theory proves too much since it would support the strange view that the Boston Massacre, for instance, might be viewed as the start of the war. In reality some American, let's not worry about who, had the courage to level his musket and fire at uniformed British soldiers with intent to injure or kill. That act had enormous significance. Let's honor it.
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                            • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
                              The "one event" referred to was the escalation in the British march from Boston to Concord against the revolutionaries, which started the war at the North Bridge.

                              The more detailed discussion of the historical events resulted from the incorrect assertions you insisted on in your own responses.
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                          • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
                            The battle started at the North Bridge, but the vast majority of the fighting that decimated the British was on the way back to Boston. Almost 500 minutemen had arrived in Concord in time for the initial fight, but many, many more continued to stream in from the surrounding area throughout the day, shooting into the British retreat all the way back to Boston.
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                        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
                          I didn't say there is disagreement over the sequence of events or their significance. I said that the minutemen at Concord knew what had happened in Lexington 4 to 5 hours earlier, which they did because they had been told by the Lincoln company, and that the minutemen were not just "passive observers" and their preparations were not "irrelevant to the start of the war". They had been organized and trained, had been alerted that the British were coming that day in their escalation against the revolutionaries at Concord, and were quickly there to actively defend the town if necessary (which is why they were called "minute men"). The bridge was on the main road leading from the north into the town, and they were maneuvering on the hillside overlooking the river and bridge, confronting the British.

                          Between 9 and 10 AM Major Buttrick and Captain Davis, seeing smoke rising from the vicinity of the town and knowing what had happened at Lexington, advised that they should "march into the middle of the town for its defence, or die in the attempt". "Colonel Barret then gave the order to Major Buttrick to lead an advance over the Bridge and to the centre of town", but "not to fire unless fired upon".

                          The company leading the advance towards the bridge was one of three companies from Acton, led by Captain Isaac Davis. They were not "passive observers" and their preparations were not "irrelevant to the start of the war". They were advancing on the British over the bridge.

                          The first volley from the British slightly wounded Luther Blanchard, the fifer from the lead Acton company, then very near the Bridge. That is when Major Buttrick gave the order to fire on the British. The names of all 38 men in Davis' company as well as the other companies are recorded. The opening volley against the British killed one private and wounded Lieutenants Hull, Gould, Kelly, and Sutherland, and several other British soldiers.

                          The British responded to the fire, killing Captain Davis and Abner Hosmer of the lead Acton company and wounding Davis' brother Ezekiel and another private, and Joshua Brooks of the Lincoln company. There were additional causualties before the British retreated back into the town. The two British who were killed at the bridge, one immediately and the other quickly after, are still buried there. (The annual Patriot's Day celebration in Concord every April 19, now with political correctness, gives equal time to the British.)
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 8 months ago
    In order to glean the real nectar from the fourth ammendment, one must be able to read between the lines of what the founders had been through and what they perceived would be needed "boundaries" against an out-of-control invasive government.
    These wonderful thinkers wrote in abstractions.
    They realized human nature would eventually take over the government and the Bill of Rights was written so that citizens would be free from an overbearing, problem-creating government.

    Hopefully, Rand has some impact in the area of abstractions and can "dumb it down" for the average citizen.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
      The Constitution was not intended to provide philosophical justifications, which are also not dumbing it down. The Constitution only specified the authorized functions of and limits on government. It presupposed a political philosophy.
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      • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 8 months ago
        Yes.
        The problem is that the voting populace needs to have it articulated in simple terms such as: Think about how you would live in a society where there was no internet and no electricity.
        Now: Think about how the government could suddenly make that happen without your knowledge not permission.
        THAT is an abstraction upon an abstraction.
        Based upon what our government actually is doing it isn't such a remote and non-personal possibility.
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        • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 8 months ago
          A good example is GPS. Global Positioning System. I'm truly amazed at how many in my own boating community these days have little concept or knowledge on how to navigate without GPS. Point one the system belongs to the US Government, specifically the US Military. point two it can be turned off completely or geographically on a selective area basis or the results degraded ( accuracy to within X distance) according to their needs. In a war zone no one cares about a bunch of yachties. Nor should they. The second system is Euro and has the exact same government controls.
          Something as simple as having on board books such as Emergency Navigation seems to escape a lot of people these days. So my opinion of them is "you cared so little for your lives why should we risk ours now that you are in trouble."

          The nice thing about living in an area with on again off again internet reminds me I can look out the window for a weather report, look down the street for a traffic report and as for the rest of it there's not much of real importance.

          I'm sure I would miss my occasional Amazon orders far far more than anything the news has to offer. Preceded or followed by instant research. But it augments not replaces any decent library if there is such a thing any more.

          As for our permission? When was that made a requirement? Certainly not since the 1930's for broadcast information such as tv and radio or just communication such as cell phones.

          As far as electricity is concerned I flip two switches and change to full solar and wind generated electricity. then think of what I should cook in the little freezer unit which is going to take 24 to 72 hours to thaw out anyway.

          If you can't say the same thing the next move is knees on floor hands clasped and lots of intense supplications Who knows it might work?
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    • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 8 months ago
      Abstractions like "Congress shall pass no law" and "Shall not be infringed"? Hard to get less abstract than that.
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      • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 8 months ago
        Those men who wrote the Constitution, The Bill of Rights and The Declaration of Independence rembered that the reason their ancestors were evicted from or left England was because of an overbearing church-state relationship where anyone at any time for any reason could be taken from his home, brought up on charges and executed for no aparent reason besides questioning authority.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago
    Hmmm, the fourth amendment only protects statists like Hillary and minions.
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    • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 8 months ago
      Bear and mind, The Constitution and the Bill of Rights imposes restrictions on the government not on individual citizens.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago
        My reading is that the Bill of Rights guarantees those rights and prevents both government and private parties from infringing on those rights without consent. For example, you can't house your private army on my property without my consent. (I may not understand your point ;^)
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        • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 8 months ago
          "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
          It's pretty clear that the first amendment is intended to restrict congress (the federal government). Private army issues are a civil matter with potential criminal implications. These are left to the state. Consider the tenth amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
          I think that's pretty clear.
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          • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 8 months ago
            True. Although the second amendment is specifically not applicable only to Congress based on that logic.

            Therefore, any store owner that puts up a sign forbidding me from keeping or bearing arms is violating my 2nd amendment rights.
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            • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 8 months ago
              If the store owner wants to restrict access to his property to those that are not carrying weapons it is his right and not a 2nd amendment violation. It is also your right to not patronize his establishment.
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              • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 8 months ago
                I hear you say that. But that's not what the 2nd Amendment says. It does not limit who may not infringe the right.
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                • Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
                  The Bill of Rights restricts the power of the Federal government, and since the 14th Amendment state government, not private property owners in what they allow on their own property. The progressive statists have reversed that without amending the Constitution.
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                  • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 8 months ago
                    The 2nd Amendment does not mention any government or person in particular who cannot infringe on the right. It says that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Period.
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                    • -1
                      Posted by ewv 8 years, 8 months ago
                      All of the Bill of Rights and all of the Constitution are about government functions and limitations, not individuals.
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                      • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 8 months ago
                        That would seem to be the issue that we are discussing. So stating it to prove it isn't actually an argument. I'm going based on what the 2nd Amendment actually says. And it does not restrict itself to government. Unlike the 1st Amendment which does.
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                • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 8 months ago
                  Also, btw. in Pennsylvania a store owner's sign has no force of law if a person is licensed to carry. So if i were licensed to carry and a store puts up a no guns sign, i could ignore the sign. However, if the store owner or manager sees the gun and asks me to leave then I would have to leave. If i say no at that point, I would be in violation of trespassing statutes - not firearms statutes.
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          • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 8 months ago
            You are right but the idea behind was Locke's view of property and individual sovereignty. Jefferson held Locke, Newton, and Bacon as the three greatest people whoever lived. Add Aristotle and he is right on. Add Rand to solve the problem of universals and it is all done. Can we protect the freedom they gave us? Only by reason and passionate claim of our rights.
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          • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago
            My reply was to your comment: "The Constitution and the Bill of Rights imposes restrictions on the government not on individual citizens."
            Your example is not "The Constitution and the Bill of Rights". You also ignore the topic of this discussion, which is the 4th amendment, not the 1st or the 10th.
            You are going to ignore the text of the rest of the bill of rights ? Sorry, not rational or convincing. If you want to say SOME of the bill of rights specifically restrict government, while others are broader and protect rights against all, then I would agree. ;^)
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            • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 8 months ago
              Fourth Amendment "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I would suggest a careful reading of the "Federalist Papers" to appreciate what the founders intended.
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              • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago
                My reply was to your comment: "The Constitution and the Bill of Rights imposes restrictions on the government not on individual citizens."
                You are going to ignore the text of the rest of the bill of rights ? Sorry, not rational or convincing. If you want to say SOME of the bill of rights specifically restrict government, while others are broader and protect rights against all, then I would agree. ;^)
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