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Checking my premises

Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 9 months ago to The Gulch: General
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I was unsure as to whether I would title this, "Unlearning what I have learned" or "Checking my premises", because in it, I have done both. A couple of recent posts by AmericanGreatness and Eudaimonia, along with a couple of posts from 1-2 weeks ago are relevant.

I have long thought that the US military was an agent for liberation from totalitarian regimes. Now should I think they are mere pawns of their political masters, most often performing altruism to societies that do not appreciate their presence?

I had long thought that having a strong military meant having a strong national defense. After seeing 67 out of 70 purposeful attempts by TSA employees to evade TSA screening in a "test" of TSA security, I know differently. Moreover, the strong military and even the border agents were unable to protect us from an invasion of illegal immigrants because the one holding the leash kept the military and border agents on so tight a leash that they were unable to do what used to be their job.

I had long thought (because I had thought that the US military was an agent for liberation from totalitarian regimes) that the US had the "moral high ground". I still think that abortion is not the best moral decision and have been criticized (perhaps rightly) within the Gulch for that opinion. Moreover, I see a commentator (sorry, but I forget whom) on FoxNews suggest that America has lost the "moral high ground" in light of the Planned Parenthood situation (The commentator said that Muslims must consider us barbarous for having so many abortions. The term barbarous ironically is derived from the Barbary Pirates in Libya.).

I'm just checking my premises.


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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sanger did not "go down the slippery slope", she started at the bottom with all kinds of racism and statism. It has nothing to do with the right of abortion.

    Planned Parenthood should not be getting government subsidies for anything, entirely independently of this latest hysteria.

    It is not a "step" from abortion rights to killing the elderly through government rationing. The first is the right of the individual, the second a violation of rights.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    j; The truth is much harder to face. A quote to think about:
    "The fact is that the average man’s is 9/10ths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice, and truth. He is not actually happy when free; he's uncomfortable, a bit alarmed, and intolerably lonely. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men. It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority like knowledge, courage, and honor. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty—and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies." (Henry Louis Mencken)
    And:
    “The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can’t get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods.” —H. L. Mencken, On Politics, a posthumous collection of essays published in 1956
    -------------------------------------------------
    Yes, there were then and are now men ready to take, even aching to take and plotting to do so, but the true evil is those that, out of physical fear or fear for today, tell the others to go ahead and take from me, if you leave me a little, I won't complain. And the last quote:
    “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.” ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You claim that "it (blarman's bringing up Sanger as PP's founder) has nothing to do with the current battle for the right of abortion". Sanger was the founder of Planned Parenthood and made her intent almost as well known as Ayn Rand made Objectivism known. Divorcing Planned Parenthood from its founder, Margaret Sanger, would be as difficult as divorcing Objectivism from Ayn Rand. Such a divorce would be a denial that A = A.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sentience is an unclear definition, but so is the definition of when a life form's ability to generate a sufficient number of self-generated actions that Rand uses. An infant is incapable of a sufficient number of self-generated actions outside the womb to sustain its own life. For that matter, some adults are incapable of that many self-generated actions.
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  • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You cant check your premises without granting you have premises, a means of checking them, and that you and the external source of information which caused you to query both exist. So yes check your premises but remember you are long way down the philosophical path before you can actuallyy do it. The better you know the principles and requirements for checking your premises the faster and easier it is. Good luck.
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  • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Surely thou jest? Sentience as you use the term needs to be defined. Chimps have both live and still births. When is the dead fetus sentient? When is the live birth sentient. Are only humans sentient? In fact there is no difference between any mammals baby as to sentience and viability. Human babies are different only after birth and after cognitive development in the presence of adult humans. We are the source of language for our children and that is the basis of thought and at last sentience. All insects are quiet sentient IE aware and volitional as to making a living by being productive in a fast changing world and adapting their skills to its changes; to build shelters travel to new locations and engage in all sorts of behaviors. Your hidden premise is you believe humans are gods children and we are not as there is no god only faithful followers. We are natural beings naturally evolved with the same basic tools and functions as all mammals except we can talk about it. Gradually we are learning that all species alive today evolved the maximum communication skills possible to their body types. All mammal babies are aware and sentient and ready for their parents to start teaching them how to survive on their own. The first lesson is how to find food as mom cant feed you forever. SO mom not the baby is the value. And she has the necessary right to act in her interest with regard to the pregnancy. Believing in god forces you to fight science and adopt politics of coercion, .which you claim you oppose. A baby acquires rights when the umbilical cord is cut, until then all life is a gift of the mother.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Blarman did not smear anyone. He stated the facts about Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood. I then asked whether you really want to exchange value for value with Margaret Sanger.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am in about as good a place as I can be in, but I am looking for alternatives. It will take a lot for me to leave, but only because there are no viable alternatives.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Are you sure? JP Morgan and Rockefeller dominated the newspapers sufficiently during that era to elect their own president (McKinley). While both Morgan and Rockefeller started out as Gulch-worthy producers, from 1896 on, they used their government control to institute a desire for statism, as is well-documented particularly with regard to Rockefeller's brothers and heirs.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Let us suppose that one wanted to achieve Sanger's objectives (I don't). One could achieve those objectives by setting up crack houses in certain neighborhoods. No one is forcing people to buy or consume the crack, but ...

    There is no evidence that the vast majority of those who support the right of abortion support Sanger's objectives. OK, I'll concede that point. However, if I exchange value for value with someone, and the person being exchanged with gets to further a stated value (for example, Sanger's) that is inconsistent with my values, then I will take my business elsewhere. I wouldn't support Sanger and Planned Parenthood by that logic, even if I would think abortion by another provider was OK. Certainly Sanger spoke at a KKK rally and was quite clear about her eugenics goals regarding African Americans. Just to be clear, I am not extrapolating that to Objectivists who support abortion.

    Sanger had already gone down the slippery slope from abortion (which could be reasonably defended by Objectivists) toward devaluing life in other ways such as eugenics and racial cleansing.

    The step toward withholding care from the elderly is not a large step from there. By the way, by 1952, Sanger was a board member for the Euthanasia Society of America (see letterhead about halfway down this link).

    http://www.lifenews.com/2014/04/02/ju...

    Just be sure who you are exchanging values with.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Consumers of news are not about to spend hours watching the full videos. They are getting pieces deliberately selected that along with "interpretations" misrepresent PP's actual views and actions, all wrapped in hysterical sensationalism based on the religious anti-abortion rights ideology. That others could watch and analyze the whole thing, even though it is not practical for most, does not change what the PR campaign is doing.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No they didn't say they were distorting it. It's what they did in both the selective editing and the interpretation they attributed to PP.
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  • -1
    Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The statism and collectivism in this country is a direct result of the dominant philosophy accepted by the population, not a Bilderberger Illuminati conspiracy.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not only do you have the right to do that, but it is in your moral self interest to find the best place for yourself that you can.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago
    He said that "this country is not worth saving" and that he wants to go to a "faraway place". I did not say he is "running away". I said "No one can blame you if you decide to live out your life restricted to personal interests as far away from the rest as you can get." Anyone who wants to join him can do likewise.

    Believing that one can escape the current state of the world in a utopian hidden "community" is wildly impractical for any length of time as a replacement for civilization and is an additional step beyond finding the safest place to live for the remaining time of one's life, but anyone who wants to try it has the right to do so.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Blarman's outrageous and disgusting smear did not win anything and neither does your endorsement of it.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Planned Parenthood provides subsidized abortions in poor neighborhoods where in addition the residents are possibly less likely to responsibly use contraceptives. No one is forcing blacks to have abortions. The black population continues to increase. There is no evidence that those who support the right of abortion are "eugenicist", "racial cleansing", "nazis" carrying out a "black holocaust", which is an outrageous smear. Your accusations are offensive and disgusting.

    The hysterical article you cited in another religious attack on abortion as "murder". You know very well that on this forum especially the right of abortion is defended as a woman's right to her own life not subject to religious duties to bear children. Rejection of individual freedom against religion is not a "slippery slope" and has nothing to do with Margaret Sanger nearly a century ago in the 1930s. Your religious anti-abortion arguments and smears are antithetical to the purpose of this forum and do not belong here -- or in any civilized discussion.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Commatose was a nice pun. It indicates you were more alert than you gave yourself credit for. ;)
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If a consumer of news wishes to see the edited version, that is their prerogative. Saying that an unedited video is distorted is beneath your usual level of debate.
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  • Posted by khalling 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    as always, sorry to put you to sleep, conscious. I will inspire to jolt you awake another day :)
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    She did say that she wanted to get a good price and mentioned that she wants to buy a Lamborghini in the same statement. I can't imagine how she could have meant those two things weren't related. How about the video where the PP workers have the mangled aborted babies in a backlit dish, picking out the parts. I don't think they are doing a biopsy there. Even though I fully support a woman's right to choose, that gave me the willies. How about if all sales proceeds goes to the mother? Anybody have that discussion yet? Didn't think so.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    They have said that they are "distorting" their own videos? Really? Interesting. Well, maybe selling parts of fetuses and (as we are learning in the more recent release) the selling of whole, aborted babies is ok with taxpayer dollars. (heavy sarcasm, sorry)
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  • Posted by conscious1978 8 years, 9 months ago
    I didn't read it that way. You have 'shrugged', in that you made a personal choice to live somewhere else. And, as a matter of personal choice, you still fight for civilization (defined in the best sense) publicly, in many ways.

    Whether you, Jim, ewv, or I defend civilization publicly, or privately, in this country, or outside it, is up to us; and the amount of time we devote to it is our choice.

    (...I need to take a break; I'm getting a little commatose. :) )
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