Is a quick spread for Objectivism possible?

Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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Tdechaine made a very interesting comment that he thought that Objectivism could spread quite quickly if the differences between it and libertarianism became widely known. dbhalling made a comment listing some prominent Objectivists and some prominent libertarians (followers of Hume's philosophy). While both made excellent points, I have doubts as to whether Objectivism could ever spread quickly. AR was quite rigid about those who espoused her philosophy. She took an "all-or-nothing" approach. The notable disputes between Rand and Nathaniel Branden, and between David Kelley and the Ayn Rand Institute suggest that a quick spread of Objectivism would be challenging. For the record, I agree with most, but not all, of Objectivism, most notably some of Rand's definitions (particularly life (as opposed to conscious human life), as discussed in a recent thread). Is a quick spread for Objectivism possible, or would such a movement splinter? Would Rand even want Objectivism to "become popular"?

I am probably going to surprise some people with this next statement, but one argument against Christianity is its splintering into so many sects.


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  • Posted by Sword_of_Apollo 8 years, 9 months ago
    I think there are two things that must be focused on to hasten the spread of Objectivism in the near future (next 20 years): 1) Getting as many teenagers and young adults to read Ayn Rand's novels as possible. 2) Explaining the principles of Objectivism and the arguments for them in a thorough and powerfully convincing way that will satisfy intelligent, thoughtful and honest people, even if they are deeply mistaken in their philosophical thinking at the moment.

    The Ayn Rand Institute has been focusing largely on applications of Objectivism. This may be an okay strategy for helping people who are already sympathetic to Rand through her novels, but just need a little boost to take the ideas seriously. But I don't think it's a good strategy for advocacy more generally.

    This is part of the reason I started my blog, Objectivism for Intellectuals: https://objectivismforintellectuals.w... I think it does something to fill the gap I see. (Ayn Rand wrote wonderful essays on Objectivism, but she leaves many things unexplained that I think need to be spelled out and explained in today's culture.)

    I think ARI is moving in the right direction with ARI Campus, but I still think even more free, accessible argument for the principles is needed.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago
      ARI has been sponsoring its essay contests on the novels for decades in order to promote them. This has resulted in millions of new readers.

      ARI's writing and speaking on "applications" is necessary to show how Ayn Rand's ideas are related to current events and controversies. Few people are inclined to look into a philosophy without that.

      What did you find that Ayn Rand left unexplained? There is always more to explore and learn, but she formulated a comprehensive philosophy, recently discussed here along with the published sources at http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts...

      It was an enormous breakthrough when Leonard Peikoff allowed, beginning several years ago, his several lecture series to be sold very inexpensively at the ARI e-store https://estore.aynrand.org/ along with many books, including his own OPAR -- in addition to the more recent no-cost ARI Campus http://campus.aynrand.org/. The comprehensive, radical new ideas, including an entire way of thinking, is crucial for more people to understand.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago
      I read We the Living and Anthem when I was in school, and my kids read We the Living in high school as well. They didn't make as much of an impact until after I had read Atlas Shrugged and then explained in detail to my kids.
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  • Posted by Maritimus 8 years, 9 months ago
    Hey, I just got an idea. Imagine if the guy in the "Fifty Shades of Gray" was an explicit Objectivist? I think if he had learned Objectivist philosophy, he would have mended his ways in the same way.

    Ergo: we need a block-buster novel with mass appeal (sex, as we know, has quite an appeal) interwoven with a carefully described reasons why the heroes are heroes because they are Objectivists. The movies, unfortunately, did not achieve that. "Atlas Shrugged" is a novel. I feel sorrow for anyone that tried to make a screenplay from it.
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 9 months ago
    I surmise that "the Kingdom of Rand" (or God) is within you.
    One-day-at-a-time (or one-step-at-a-time) is how growth and change happen.
    Ayn (bless her heart) was SO advanced of a human being that she couldn't wait for the populace to catch up with her ideas.
    She thought of people as being ...well... A-1 or A-0.
    In many ways she was (and is) truly remarkable in her ability to cut between soul and spirit. She had no apparent patience to abide evolution of thought for us who are mere mortals.
    The mere fact that 30+ years after her death there are those of us who are catching up to her thoughts is a testimony to the mind of mere mortal man.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 9 months ago
    While I would never want to misrepresent Ayn
    Rand's philosophy, I think I disagree with her on
    some minor points; so I cannot swear that she
    would consider me a true Objectivist. If the movie
    of "Atlas Shrugged" had been more competently
    done, it might inspire more people to read the
    book, and that might help to spread it.

    I think a time might come when most people
    in the country will call themselves Objectivists,
    and the quarrels and snobbery will be between
    and among people who dispute about who and
    who are not "true" Objectivists.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 9 months ago
    I would just ask the question: do you want people who think or do you want sheeple? Thinking takes time and study which most Americans are not willing to invest.

    The other thing is that whenever you are trying to win "converts" you are selling something, so you have to be able to identify what exactly it is you are selling and how it is better than the alternatives. You also have to have people who are willing to do the selling and identify what will motivate them to proselyte the message. And I use the word proselyte intentionally. There are only a few philosophies who use a reasoned approach to spread the word of their sects without force and in enough volume to matter: the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses. There are plenty who are willing to coerce, including socialists, fascists, Islam, and others, but I would look to the Mormons and the JW's if you want to find out how to effectively proselyte, as those are two of the fastest-growing philosophical movements in the world.

    The other thing you are going to have to do is engage people at least weekly in thought discussions to keep them learning and interested. If this sounds a lot like setting up a "church", it probably is because that's been effective.

    PS - I agree with you about the splintering of Christianity being its own worst enemy.
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    • Posted by BrettRocketSci 8 years, 9 months ago
      Thanks for this response. I think you hit on a lot of important characteristics and factors.
      Are the Mormons and JW's really growing fast? That's surprising news to me.
      Objectivism is a complex system of ideas and principles. Thus it has to spread as a movement, not a fad. To answer Jim's question, I think we need to ask, can a movement spread quickly? If so, how?
      There's many excellent books and researchers on this topic. And we have historical examples to learn from ourselves. I gave a few authors below and we can identify more.
      At this time, based on what I know, the movements I'm aware of that spread quickly did so because they riled up people with fear, hysteria, and hatred. So perhaps we don't want it to spread fast. As you said, we don't want sheeple.
      I believe what we need to spread fast (and can achieve) is for those of us who share our values to connect, trade, and encourage each other as much as possible so that we can succeed and thrive as much as possible, as fast as possible, before the sheeple push us all over the cliff. That's why I'm here. :-) Who's with me?!
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      • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago
        From those responding to my thread, it appears that a quick spread of Objectivist ideas is not in Objectivism's best interests. As I expected, people will have to discover Objectivism for themselves.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
    I am not a philosopher, nor am I wise enough to devise a better philosophy. That being said, I would like to point out that Objectivism could spread, but not as Ayn Rand's Objectivism. Brilliant as she was, she was not omniscient, and was not quite on track in certain areas, such aspects of science. However, she was adamant as an Imam believer that everything in her philosophy remains exactly as she has presented it, and no changes were to be made unless she or someone she OK'd made them. This, of course is not possible. Therefore, a new name other than Objectivism needs to be devised, but at the same time making it clear that it derived from Objectivism. Once this is done, Objectivism in its new persona, can be spread. However, I have another caveat. In order for people to understand the philosophy quickly, a basic principles of the philosophy must be written and published and discussed. Personally, I thought Brandon's version of this as a course was quite brilliant, and in book form would present itself to newbies in an appealing form.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago
      Leonard Peikoff has published a definitive, systematic presentation in his book Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand. Branden's old basic principles course from before he went off the cliff himself is said by those who were there to have been very useful in clearing up key non-fiction ideas that at the time had not been spelled out in more detail, but that was very early and it didn't get very far for a more inquiring audience.

      Leonard Peikoff's lecture courses in the 1970s on Objectivism and the way he related Objectivism to the history of Western philosophy are much better. These are still available, now for free packaged on the web or as inexpensive downloads, from ARI. This was the basis of Leonard Peikoff's more extensive book on Objectivism. They are very interesting and informative. This is the detailed non-fiction basis of any intellectual movement following Ayn Rand.
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    • Posted by Tuner38 8 years, 9 months ago
      Objectivism without Ayn Rand? You've got to be kidding.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
        My point was that it should not be Objectivism but an offshoot of Objectivism.What I was thinking of, now that I've had more time to cogitate, is something that would pique the curiosity of interested people. Perhaps just a brief ten point exposition, something like: We are Yunameitsociety> Here is what we stand for: Then list the ten (or you pick the number) salient points. If you want to know more contact SO&SO @ etc.com. A person who contacts SO&SO could be given the Peikoff literature or part of it with the further info. that we have someone in your area who meets with a group of friends once a month at ..... Of course, this would imply setting up and actual organization.
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago
          Didn't the Libertarian Party already try this approach? Ayn Rand was none too happy about it.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
            Brandon Again.
            When he set up NBI, he hat the advantage of the newly published soft cover edition of Atlas into which he put a flyer advertising NBI. That format, was pretty much what I outlined and it was very successful. It only fell apart when the Rand/Branden relationship fell apart. Had that not happened, I think Objectivism might well be a national movement.+
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            • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago
              Branden's personal behavior was his own self destruction. Ayn Rand saw him for he became and acted accordingly. She continued on without him and didn't need NBI. She continued to publish a journal and books, continued to speak, and continued to sponsor some very excellent lecture series. There isn't anything Branden could have done to make Ayn Rand's ideas into a dominant national intellectual movement no matter what he had done.
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              • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
                I must disagree with you. I'm not defending Branden's actions, or for that matter, Rand's. However, I was there in the sense that I was active in our Ayn Rand enclave when things fell apart. The Newsletter under Rand was less interesting with less current views by a variety of people. It kept changing format until it just sort of petered out. No more classes by tape were sent out and everything seemed to tighten up into the New York "collective." Rand's amphetamine addiction was increasing and a definite feeling of bitterness emanated from her and those close to her. Piekoff was brilliant but more of a lap dog than even Branden. Plus, if anyone thought Nathaniel was hard to approach, he was easy compared to Leonard. I realize I'm talking about Objectivist icons and it might seem as if I have something against them. Not true. They gave me more than I can ever pay back. In my opinion Rand and those around her, Including Barbara Branden are people who literally saved my life in the sense that I would have been adrift if not for the compass they gave me. But reality is what it is and what is, is truth.
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                • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago
                  Ayn Rand's periodicals remained interesting and only changed format once, when she changed from The Objectivist to the Ayn Rand Letter, written mostly by herself and therefore better. It didn't peter out, she announced that she was no longer publishing it (though it was always behind schedule). There were several tape transcription courses in the 1970s, mostly but not exclusively by Leonard Peikoff and Ayn Rand continued to speak, especially at Ford Hall Forum. The Peikoff lectures and all or most of the Ford Hall presentations are still available.

                  I don't know anything about the speculations of bitterness, lap dogs and addictions, or the kinds of groups you were in, and I never knew the Brandens or attended their lectures. They were gone by the time I discovered any of this. I didn't have any reason or desire to try to befriend the people around Ayn Rand and had no reason to believe they would want to, especially since I was just starting out.

                  One problem was the insistence that people who knew nothing about the Brandens' problems take a stand against them and have nothing to do with their work, which was very puzzling. Eventually the Brandens provided the reasons themselves through their own actions, as was later documented by Valient's The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics.

                  There isn't anything in this that indicates Branden could have otherwise made Ayn Rand's ideas into a dominant national intellectual movement.
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                  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
                    Interesting. Viewing the same thing from different perspectives. Sort of like witnesses trying to describe the same incident to the police. I don't think I implied that Ayn Rand was uninteresting at that time. She never failed to stimulate and clarify.
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                    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago
                      You wrote that "The Newsletter under Rand was less interesting".

                      I don't know what your personal experiences were and wouldn't try to describe them, but I see no reason to think Branden could have ever made Ayn
                      Rand's ideas into a dominant national movement no matter what he might have done.
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                      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
                        OK. That's your perception. I knew the man. We were just acquainted true, but he adored Rand and had the intelligence and energy and force of personality to create a movement that wasn't a cult. Rand on her own originally had no intention of doing what Branden did. I'm sure she would have been wonderful at it, but most of her time was spent in writing. Very precise writing that in order to meet her very high standards, required almost all of her time and concentration. Brandon on the other hand, put aside his pursuit of higher degrees and writing books to devote most of his time to the spread of Objectivism. Even well after the split, his only criticisms of Rand, if they can be called that, were very mild compared to her actual critics. When I asked him straight out to describe what he thought of Rand (2 years after) he replied, "She has a high opinion of the possibilities inherent in mankind."
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                        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 9 months ago
                          Did you read Branden after Psychology of Self Esteem (written before the break)? HIs entire method of thinking reversed. He was even into New Age mysticism and was spreading very ugly attacks on Ayn Rand on his website and in his book on her. You should read the Valient book showing how he reversed himself on Objectivism and personally betrayed his own integrity leading up to the break, leaving Ayn Rand with no choice, all based on Ayn Rand's personal journals that contradict what Branden said about her position,.

                          Branden has been associated with Ayn Rand for a long time and had started NBI on his own despite her reservations. Aside from his pompous style he had done a lot of good in explaining non-fiction elementary elements of her philosophy to a core group of people interested, lasting for several years. But there is no sign that he even if he hadn't cracked up that he could have taken it beyond the level of those with a particular interest in her ideas to become a dominant, nation-wide movement. If he had tried he would have become a kind of 'guru' that is antithetical to the kind of independent thought and understanding Ayn Rand sought and without which the influence of her ideas cannot spread.
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                          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
                            I didn't read his web site or any others at that time and wasn't aware of the issues you describe. In those days, except when he was in town, (Detroit) I would see him with a mutual friend. Otherwise I was working at building a business which was a 7 day 12 hour job. I'm sure what you say is true because there is a very big blank space in my seeing or talking to him until Barbara died.
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