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The Conflict Within - The Left's Version of Creationism

Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 10 months ago to Philosophy
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I've mentioned in other comments, a recent book I've been reading and studying by a favorite Astro-physicist, Hilton Ratcliffe, titled "Stephen Hawking Smoked My Socks." The primary emphasis of this book, that follows much of Ratcliffe's previous work has to do with the effect of belief systems on scientific inquiry and mathematical formulation of and nonsensical corrections/additions to theories to incorporate such beliefs into current scientific research and even experimental findings. In these writings, Ratcliffe is really talking about socially derived belief's-faith's impact on science today, as well as the fact that all humans grow up with sets of belief systems that those in science, in particular though not exclusively, must first recognize such belief systems' impacts and their influences on their and their predecessors' work, but then take the extremely difficult path of ensuring that such does not interfere with their actual and factual experimental and measured findings and work.

Now, I've recently encountered another source in the referenced blog (Gene Expression), that goes even further than Ratcliffe in describing this phenomena of human existence in scientific work by delving into the scientific squabble that's been going on since the 70's with those, sometimes termed neo-darwinists', that searched for and believe they've found support in their studies and work to support what they've termed sociobiology. A term developed to explain many studied characteristics of today's individual humans actions and responses whose predilections in society are derived from evolutionary genetic traits at neural and molecular levels combined with environmentally influenced expressions. The referenced article, though not easily read, describes those opposing sociobiology as driven by their own early Marxist and Stalinist indoctrination that wish to believe that humans are so malleable as to be controlled through progressive/socialist government and institutional policies and imposed moralities.

The article goes on to compare the opposing leftist, progressive influence to the rightist, conservative arguments on creationism:
"Rose, like his fellow travellers Gould and Lewontin, doesn't want his worldview, which has been extensively shaped by Marxist philosophy, to come crumbling down. The solutions proffered are state centered, gene-phobic, and premised on the extreme malleability of human nature. Further, like Diamond, he knows what sells and what his fans want to read and hear. He panders to the ideology, whether he truly believes in the Ghost in the Machine or not, and despite the warnings offered by Ehrenreich, McIntosh and Konner, the faithful of the Left lap up the ideologically reassuring pablum and turn a blind eye to the reality unfolding before them. The core of this faith is that human nature is malleable beyond limits that now exist, and like I've written before, along with my co-bloggers, it is that faith in the face of reason that binds one faction of the Left to their faith-based counterparts on the Right and like on the Right, the Left has its charlatans and hypocrites delivering these sermons." (emphasis added)

For Objectivist, these ideas and concepts will make a lot of sense. For those dedicated to the validity of their beliefs-faith, as the author says, in the face of reason, they will find much to argue with (if they even bother to read and follow some of the referenced material before commenting).


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I've been disappointed lately in the level of much posting and commentary on the site of recent days, and much of my posting lately is an attempt to restore to the site, a quality of Objective thought, posting, and commentary; as well as further the value of reason over faith/belief.


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  • -3
    Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Marx and Stalin offered belief in evolution, and the astoundingly arrogant believe that each could re-make humankind. What do you think "New Communist Man" was supposed to be about? It was about evolution.

    Evolution and individual rights are incompatible. Evolution says we are no better than animals, or "collections of chemicals." Rand knew that, but didn't follow the logic as she should have.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Your beliefs are your's to have and they belong within you, not in an Objectivist community striving for reason over belief.

    -1
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You miss the point of the post entirely, unless you are arguing by example, that Marx and Stalin and those that believed in them were just as valid in their beliefs over reason as are you.
    -1
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Herb, your original metaphor It is bit more interesting for those who, like me, are allergic to down. For me, it goes "...snuggling up in a down filled comforter, drifting towards sleep, and suddenly feeling your eyes start to swell shut, your nose turning into a waterfall, and sometimes your throat beginning to swell". The only way to even LIVE is to throw the comforter as far away from you as you can, go and wash your face, and find another option to keep warm or get up.
    It takes your beautifully-put metaphor a step farther - down [or faith-based thinking] will at best make you wildly uncomfortable, and at worst, will kill you.
    edited to ensure it was clear to just what comment I was replying.
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  • -3
    Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The key is "the credible evidence you have seen."

    First, only you can decide what you want to believe, and what you refuse to believe.

    Second, I invite you to look at some evidence you haven't seen.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Nonsense. This certainly doesn't contribute to "an attempt to restore to the site, a quality of Objective thought, posting, and commentary; as well as further the value of reason over faith/belief." Though it certainly illustrates in 'vivid color', the general issue of my particular concerns, as well as much in the referenced article.

    -1
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Reminds me of the architect who designed a beautiful single span bridge over a canyon near San Diego. The engineers told him that it appeared to be unstable because of the 35mph gusts of wind that happen in that area. The designer had to agree, although he said, "But it sure is beautiful." So are many elegant and beautiful theories that mathematics can solve in every way except in reality.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, but it's been determined that which 'type' of woman, (physical characteristics and even demonstrated female proclivities) strongly influence that attraction on an unconscious level. But you're also correct, I think, that chosen values and reason can over-ride a certain part of that.

    I'm of the strong conviction that those chosen values should be self determined rather than 'politically correct' values, which many of both sexes are overly influenced by today.

    The science of sociobiology is softer than the hard science of chemistry (as an example) and relies on the combination of several previously separate areas of study including anthropology,comparative DNA, molecular biology and chemistry, and quite a few others. It's also been hindered by the PC fascists and the so called social sciences since the 70's. I think you've expressed the current understandings that genetic proclivities are modified by environment, but are a part of us.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Interesting. I'll have to look that up.

    The USSR was another lie, with data controlled to point to the answer.

    It is very interesting walking this fine line between being completely objective with all the data, and when it is time to draw a conclusion without waiting interminably. It is certainly more prudent to get more data, but one can wait so long the relevant opportunity passes. The ability to conclude close to this line is one measure of intelligence. Of course luck is just as likely to bless or curse someone playing near the line without the requisite knowledge or sharpness.
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  • Posted by Watcher55 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My only advice to someone tempted by creationist BS is to (1) read the critiques of it by scientific experts in the field, and (2) if you have the time, inclination and sufficient background knowledge, read through the creationist literature looking up the primary references.

    The latter is a real eye-opener. In the paleolithic era when I was young, I found creationist arguments quite compelling. Then (doing a biology degree and all) I started chasing down the references they quoted. It is not an exaggeration to say that every single one was either a gross misrepresentation, a childish misunderstanding, a logical fallacy, or some obscure one-off report that nobody really understood and had nothing to do with creationism except at a stretch one could interpret it that way.

    The fact that evolution has occurred and is responsible for all the variety of life on earth is attested by irrefutable evidence from paleontology, biochemistry and genetics. Sure, if you read creationist literature you'll think that isn't the case. But to paraphrase Disraeli, there are lies, damned lies, and creationist literature.
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  • Posted by Watcher55 8 years, 10 months ago
    Interesting, and "leftist bias" in the philosophical interpretation or acceptance of science is certainly visible to those not suffering from it, as is "subjectivist bias" in theoretical physics. We all have 20:20 vision when it comes to other people's blindness :-)

    However on the particular topic of sociobiology it is something of a stretch to label that as "science" with its opponents as philosophically motivated. Some opponents might go too far in the "infinitely malleable by social forces" direction, but the field itself is filled with "just so" stories and likes to go too far in the "your behaviours and even your political preferences are genetic".

    The missing component in both is, of course, the role of reason in what we do. I would say the truth is that we are influenced by our genes, but what we do about it is mainly up to us. Thus the fact I am attracted to women is part of my nature, but which particular women I find most attractive and what I do about it is where my chosen values come into play.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ratcliffe was only pointing out two examples of beliefs that can never be tested, but to try to tie that to "evidence is not proof" misses the point completely and is simply mis-categorical logic. Further there is a good deal of actual difference between creationist and atheist. Atheist form their belief from a total lack of evidence, while creationist form their belief in the face of evidence to the counter.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As dbhalling says, "This is not true and shows a complete lack of understanding of the epistemological basis of science." It also illustrates which of two metaphysical primacies you have selected.

    Let me be clear, everyone holds one side or the other of the issue of metaphysical primacy. There are no other options. One must choose either the primacy of existence, which means existence ranks first (is primary) before anything else; or the primacy of consciousness, which means consciousness is primary and outranks existence. There is no middle ground.

    To claim the earth is only a few thousand years old means you believe that, not only with a lack of evidence, but in the face of all credible evidence I have ever seen.

    I Think you are giving credibility to writers who thought the earth was flat and were baffled by where it went at night. People who had no idea about astronomy or geology or any of the myriad of sciences which independently converge to support evolution.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is nothing worth reading on creation science - it is a oxymoronic. Science starts with the idea that the world is natural, not driven by some ghost.
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  • -1
    Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 10 months ago
    The point is: the evolutionary model depends on the earth being 4.5 billion years old. But that same evidence came from a very violent event that happened only fifty-three hundred years ago, give or take a hundred. You simply cannot support the theory of evolution. Adaptation to environment can take place rapidly--more rapidly than the classical theory gives it credit for. But not so rapidly that in about 7000 years, /one/ ancestral life form could have given rise to /every/ development line for /every/ form of life.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You are stating alleged evidence in support of some point. It is your point I do not understand.
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    • Temlakos replied 8 years, 10 months ago
    • Temlakos replied 8 years, 10 months ago
  • -2
    Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I offered that link. Why don't you follow it? You'll find it leads to about four hundred pages of very interesting reading.
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  • -3
    Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The physical evidence says: this planet began with a subcrustal ocean, about fifty miles down. It broke containment where the Mid-Oceanic Ridges now stand. As much as 400 miles eroded off the edges of the Americas to the west, and Europe and Africa to the east. Some of the water washed all over the land areas and depositive three miles of stratified silt containing the carcasses of millions of animals large and small, and even a few human casualties (those that did not par-broil in the supercritically hot water). More of it escaped into space, where it persists as the subglacial oceans on Europa, Ganymede, and Enceladus, and the ices of the comets, the asteroids, and the trans-Neptunian objects. Including the planet (yes, I said "planet") Pluto.

    One of the recent photographs of Pluto shows that it has a lake of carbon monoxide ice on it. Now how do you think that got there. You have to have wood and oxygen to get carbon monoxide. Wood burning in a confined space. Burning, maybe, from the heat of accretion, using oxygen from photo-dissociated water.

    Any other questions?
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "Ryle's philosophical arguments in his essay "Descartes' Myth" lay out his notion of the mistaken foundations of mind-body dualism conceptions, comprising a suggestion that to speak of mind and body as a substance, as a dualist does, is to commit a category mistake. Ryle writes:[1]

    Such in outline is the official theory. I shall often speak of it, with deliberate abusiveness, as "the dogma of the Ghost in the Machine." I hope to prove that it is entirely false, and false not in detail but in principle. It is not merely an assemblage of particular mistakes. It is one big mistake and a mistake of a special kind. It is, namely, a category mistake.

    Ryle then attempts to show that the "official doctrine" of mind/body dualism is false by asserting that it confuses two logical-types, or categories, as being compatible. He states "it represents the facts of mental life as if they belonged to one logical type/category, when they actually belong to another. The dogma is therefore a philosopher's myth."

    Arthur Koestler brought Ryle's concept to wider attention in his 1967 book The Ghost in the Machine, which takes Ryle's phrase as its title.[7] The book's main focus is mankind's movement towards self-destruction, particularly in the nuclear arms arena. It is particularly critical of B. F. Skinner's behaviourist theory. One of the book's central concepts is that as the human brain has grown, it has built upon earlier, more primitive brain structures, and that this is the "ghost in the machine" of the title. Koestler's theory is that at times these structures can overpower higher logical functions, and are responsible for hate, anger and other such destructive impulses." Wikipedia
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If you enjoyed Violinist's Thumb, you might enjoy a fairly new movie titled "Child 44", a serial murder mystery, but set in 1953 USSR where the political mandate, 'There is no murder in Paradise' wouldn't let a dead body be attributed to murder, though it did accept 'crime by mental defectives' that had been tied to German indoctrination or intentional 'plants' during WWII. It's not only a great story, but really demonstrative of so many of the insanities of the socialist state.
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