Why do humans have to be owned?

Posted by j_IR1776wg 8 years, 10 months ago to Philosophy
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A recurring post here in the Gulch for the past several years asks whether the government owns you of if you own you.

Why do humans have to be owned at all?


My whole life I've been told that:
1) god own me.
2) my parents own me.
3) government owns me.
4) I own me.

But I've never read any proof or justification of why exactly is ownership of humans necessary?

In logic, the offering of a limited number of choices as if they were the only choices is a fallacy known as bifurcation. Is this what we are being offered?

Is ownership of humans necessary?


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  • Posted by khalling 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Logically to sell yourself makes no sense. There is no consideration on your part once you give up ownership. There is no mechanism for enforcement of the contract. My interest lies more within the realm of innate -ness. Is it just part of me like my physical self or do I have to act to make it real.
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  • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It sounds like you are making an argument for an Intellectual Ruling Class (of which you, naturally, would be a member). Those with "insufficiently high IQs" would then be the slaves of that class.

    Am I getting warm? Or do you intend to enslave me as well?
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Get ahold of some books by authors such as Bernard Cornwall, Conn Iggulden, Michael Shaara, Steven Pressfield, Jack Weatherfield who write fiction based on fact and are meticulous in their research. A rather pleasant way to gain a framework of history with a great meany insights and all written in the context of the times.Another author W.E.B. Griffin will provide the same with his personal observations of actual historical figures or interviews with those who knew them and those whose age reached back to the beginning of the 1900's. For example how many know the US involvement in Greece late 1940's or in Africa in the 1960's from the point of view of the soldiers and marines who were boots on the ground.

    From there it will be much easier to the straight up historical books.

    Many of the professor written books are victims of a. the publish or perish crowd whose views are tainted with some other agenda such as selling required text books.

    Insofar as movies are concerned the choices are far more limited. We Were Young And Soldiers and Forrest Gump (really I'm serious) were the only two about Vietnam with any reality or accuracy. One example of a book with accurate quotes from biased and self serving sources is Lam Son 719 about the Laotian incursion in 1971. The author didn't dig near deep enough.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am beginning only as I get older the importance of learning the history of the world. It was presented in such s boring and irrelevant way in public schools I went to that I had little interest in it. The history channel and Netflix have showed me so much and I appreciate your comments above. Thanks for that
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't see why not. Doesn't seem like a good idea for the seller, or moral for the buyer, but why not?
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Why limit the models? British use of their lower classes especially on ship's crews in the old sailing ship days, German use of trained infantry regiments rented or sold to other nations, The entire historic Russian and eastern Europe serf system from Tzar to the Commissars, Most of the middle east model as dictated by religion, The result of the always government fettered version of capitalism or socialist union and political party controlled work place, the sponsorship of human trafficking by many governments including our own (by providing the customers on world wide basis for the sex trades) by refusal of those with ability to make a difference to follow through (NOW during the nineties) and support their stated ideals. Limiting the models to southern slaves or Nazis Socialist Fascists is far far to limiting and lest I forget the government imposed slave system model of welfarism as a natural and acceptable condition. Most owners or despots are handed permission by those they own or control as the easier choice or lesser choice requiring the least effort. The most insiduously evil tool in modern society is the welfare check, the big screen tv and the propaganda based model of modern sociology along with a denigrated evaluation of self worth and self respect. One of the results is accepting the more overt forms as acceptable - but not in my back yard. Sorry - the backyard for which I bought the right to pay the government rent
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago
    When they have a choice they make a choice in exchange for some feeling for safety without responsibility. A self imposed condition. When they don't have a choice or perceive no choice they either adapt and accept or the exact opposite and choose to improve their condition.By choosing a God or other belief system or after childhood choose to follow an imposed situation (family is a micro version of government) they accept the will of others. The last the choice #4 demands responsibility and action. It's all about accepting the value of self and with it the demands of self respect versus the evaluation of others under the imposed definition called self-esteem. I tried self evaluated condition versus the Good Try constraints imposed by others. Independence versus some form of servitude. From that all other acceptable beliefs follow.
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  • Posted by salta 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You would not have responsibility to enter that contract if you did not have self ownership. Somebody else would be making a contract with the publisher to force YOU to write the book (it would be unworkable)
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  • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    and sounded like Mom wanted to write the contract that Jolene 'should' sign... just a bit of 'ownership' there, eh?
    Divorce=> reasonable solution. Enjoy your 'own' new life, Jolene.
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  • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If you postulate that one 'owns' one's self (by whatever definition...) can that imply that one may also, voluntarily and by contract, hand over such 'ownership' to another?
    i.e., contract (legal) slavery?
    Just askin'
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  • Posted by Lucky 8 years, 10 months ago
    I agree with j_IR and cg here.
    To use the word ownership regarding oneself is meaningless. The self-reflexity goes round in circles. It is another example of putting words into a sentence with proper grammar that means nothing.
    See Bertrand Russell- whether the class of all classes contains itself.

    Better to say that the individual is Sovereign.
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  • -2
    Posted by PiPhD 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The fact that you even asked that question demonstrates that you have a very low IQ yourself because anyone who is relatively intelligent knows that the VERY FIRST rule of being captured is to ... ESCAPE BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!
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  • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How does one escape from a concentration camp?
    Was this an innocent question or do you really not know/understand the history there? What were the chances of any intelligent slave, in any slave society, of escaping?
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  • Posted by PiPhD 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Then, perhaps consider how and why they "stayed" in the gulag? Why was their intelligence not great enough to ESCAPE?
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  • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Explain - if someone is born into a Soviet or North Korean GULAG, what options do they have, regardless of their intelligence?
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Of course not--She also had the means to actively resist and could say NO. That might be a lesson to the rest of us.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "She said I needed to get cable and stay home all the time unless I was working or with my family."
    It sounds like she didn't go out and live her life as she believed, and she didn't want to see you live as you believe because misery loves company.

    If that is true, maybe that might help you not be angry at her for telling you not to live your dreams. She didn't do it herself, so she's not singling you out for mistreatment.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not sure if I could agree with you. Most humans throughout history have been born and raised in circumstances well beyond their control. Few were able to escape slavery or some sort of ownership on their own. Present day America is a unique occurrence where hitherto essentially free people are voluntarily selling themselves into slavery, and for the price of empty promises of future or present comforts.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 10 months ago
    I suppose the real issue is not "ownership of" but "control over". The concept of ownership is just a way to discourage others from taking "control over" something. Think about itcreally
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