Flags and the Thought Police

Posted by robgambrill 8 years, 10 months ago to Culture
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I never really cared for the confederate flag, but I heard today that E-bay had banned their sale.

Just to see what would happen, I decided to try and order one off of Amazon, just as they decided not to allow the sale of rebel flags as well.

As they were taking down the offerings, I noticed that other historical flags were being pulled as well. The picture is from my "Wish List". Not sure the web masters knew which flags to pull off the site.

I eventually managed to order both a "Don't Tread on Me" flag and a small rebel flag as a souvenir of the day the thought police decided I shouldn't be able to buy a flag because of somebodies idea of what it stands for.

I could be mistaken, but I think for a lot of people, the confederate flag has to more to do with a wish to be free of the federal government than history or race issues.


The seller shipped the rebel flag right away, guess he didn't want to get stuck with the inventory.

. I guess I am not comfortable with banning the sale of flags, even unpopular ones.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 10 months ago
    It's a distraction. If we don't put it to rest, the left will pound that flag over the Rights head until 2016.
    The Flag, Gay Marriage, Pot are all distractions and aren't real issues.
    I miss seeing "Dixie" everywhere in the south, things change. That flag means different things to different people.
    If you're looking for a symbol, there are plenty other to choose from.
    Find one that makes the statement and promote it, then no one can confuse it with racism or hate. And you might get more people to rally around it.
    The Confederate flag is nothing. Lets not lose the war to win a battle.
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    • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 10 months ago
      Confusing the Confederate flag with racism and hate shows rather poor thinking abilities.
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      • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 10 months ago
        It's irrelevant. It's a distraction.
        A rationale argument can't be made to someone with the fingers in there ears. No one wants to hear an hour explanation on how the civil war was not solely about slavery.
        Let's not give Hillary something to distract the low info voters with to avoid talking about her accomplishments.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
    To me, a flag is a symbol. The Gadsden flag (snake with "Don't Tread On Me") was designed to symbolize the desire for self-rule and rejection of tyranny. The United States flag symbolizes our nation with a nod not only to its current constituency (50 stars for 50 states) but its past constituency (13 stripes for 13 original colonies -> states). The Red, White and Blue also symbolize courage, loyalty, and honor.

    What does the Confederate flag represent? To me that gets at the heart of the whole debate. To some, it is a symbol of rebellion against a strong central government. To others it is a symbol of slavery, the violation of basic human rights, or death of American citizens (civilian and military) the likes of which American has never seen in either total or percentage since. To me, the latter outweighs the former - especially when the Gadsden flag is available.

    As to the banning of sales of flags, do we not argue that each business has the right to determine how it best is going to service its customers and that the market should determine the outcome? Why is this any different? Let those who wish to continue to sell the flags do so and those who do not wish to sell them cease.
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    • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
      According to the revisionist "history," the Civil War was fought over slavery. Even a cursory examination of the real history clearly shows that slavery was a secondary topic. To be sure, it was the catalyst, and a primary topic for the Abolishionists, by they were a minority. States' Rights were the real issue, and that is what the Confederate flag symbolizes. The Statists (Democrat and Republican) are only too happy to get rid of the symbol that most threatens their hegemony.
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    • Posted by SaltyDog 8 years, 10 months ago
      Well, if I owned, oh, let's say a bakery, could I refuse to sell a cake that celebrates a gay wedding?

      (Sorry...just being the Devil's Advocate)
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      • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
        You know if Amazon does not want to have certain items in its warehouses I am cool with that.

        However Ebay and Amazon serve as a marketplace for a lot of small businesses. They pretty much said we are not going to sell this stuff and you can't either. What is the small business guys alternative market place? What if the search engines said they would not link to merchandise bearing the confederate flag?

        Starts to sound more like censorship than a business preference .

        (Apologies --That's just me playing Devil's advocate to your devils advocate).
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
        Personally, I think the laws that say businesses have to serve everyone are not only ridiculous, but contrary to human rights. Businesses should have every right to pick with whom they do business and it should be their right to refuse to do business with anyone for any reason. Why? Because how a business operates reflects their values and values are ultimately personal and not subject to someone else's approval or legislative fiat. If we are to be free to select our own values, we must be free to be able to express those as well regardless where we happen to be at the time. It is a purely nonsensical and progressive/liberal idea that people should constantly be changing their value sets/philosophies dependent on their location or circumstances.
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        • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
          Sure, Amazon and eBay have the right to refuse to sell anything they don't like. But, like you said, it reflects their values - and the fact that they sell Nazi flags, especially now that the flag issue has popped up, certainly reflects their values.
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  • Posted by cjferraris 8 years, 10 months ago
    Whether or not you agree with the flag, banning it IMHO, it akin to banning a book or free speech. The First Amendment was put in place for the protection of speech you DON'T agree with. By these retailers doing what they've done, they have basically said that they DON'T support the First Amendment. I guess I don't need to be utilizing their business.
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  • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 10 months ago
    The civil war started over slavery. It started with white free men who owned black slaves and ended with a federal government that owned all people as slaves. It would take time for them to claim their slaves, but the mental shift and the damage was done. The right of the federal government to use force to keep those within it who no longer wished to be there was established.

    It makes me think of the beginning of the slavery of mankind, not the emergence of freedom for the blacks.

    Guess I am just a glass half empty kind of guy. :)
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    • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 10 months ago
      If you mean the need of the GOP to enslave the southern farmers, then I agree. The winner of every war in history chooses the history that is taught that makes the winner look heroic and admirable, and makes the loser take the blame regardless of the truth, and that war is no exception. For the real history of why that war was fought, read the book "The Real Lincoln" and "Lincoln Unmasked" by Thomas DiLorenzo. He provides documentation throughout the books. (Don't just go read the book reviews because DiLorenzo takes on the history "establishment" who have a vested interest in the misleading history, and for obvious reasons they will give bad reviews, albeit without any documentation to refute DiLorenzo's documented statements.)
      The war was primarily about taxing one group (Southern Agriculture) in order to give the money to another group (Northern Manufacturing who monetarily supported/elected the GOP/Lincoln which was created from the failed Whig Party.) Slavery was not a reason for the war, just a way for Lincoln, the consumate lying politician, and for the historians (who sought to deify Lincon) , to excuse his war crimes and unconstitutional acts.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
        I found some other very interesting information here:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_...

        It contends that the move to secede had been on the table for at least 30 years prior to the South's actual secession. Lincoln's election was more coincidental than causal, as the secession was over and decided within three months - hardly a time period long enough for an entire swath of the Nation to take such a radical stance.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 10 months ago
          Lincoln's election brought in the tariff that Lincoln and the GOP promised. The South would be paying the majority of tariffs under the bill and the north would be receiving. The tariff of abominations had almost caused a secession crisis years earlier and Lincoln (the GOP) knew exactly what they were doing.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_...
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          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
            Uh, that was 30 YEARS earlier! To say Lincoln and the Republicans were responsible for that is disingenuous. The Republican Party didn't formally exist until 1854 - just a few years prior to Lincoln's election.

            From everything I can read, there is no question that the Southern States certainly were disproportionately impacted by tariffs and duties that started just after the War of 1812 and which were perpetuated until the Civil War. But you are trying to make the argument that the secession was Lincoln's doing, and I can find no support for that argument. His election may have been the straw which broke the camel's back, but before he had actually even done anything, the South had seceded - some even prior to Lincoln's election!

            If you want to blame a President, I'd start with John Quincy Adams and Buchanan.
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            • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 10 months ago
              No, blarman, the Whigs had been pushing for another tariff under henry Clay for years after the TofAbom, and under Lincoln they became the GOP, but that's not the point. The point is that Lincoln and the GOP knew what had happened when it was tried before and that the situation had not changed. They knew it would cause the same problem (as stealing often does.) Lincoln ran on the tariff issue. He was a follower of Henry Clay and the Whigs. He created the problem and he knew in advance it would happen. Lincoln was at fault. He even refused to meet with southern congressmen who wanted to avoid war. Lincoln wanted war, and slavery had nothing to do with it. Unfair taxation was the primary cause and Lincoln knew in advance what would happen.
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      • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 10 months ago
        Thanks for the book suggestions. I have a long list I want to read and just added two to it. Those may even bubble up ahead of some others as that sounds very interesting.

        I was much simpler than that, simply that we traded one form of slavery (black slaves) for another form (slavery by state) as a result of the civil war. Which GOP enslaving southern farmers would definitely fall into the new form of slavery I was referring too. Its a form of government imposed slavery rather than individual imposed slavery.
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    • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
      Don't quite know what to do with this uncomfortable fact - that Blacks in the South also owned Black slaves. And earlier on, in all the colonies, Whites owned both Black and White slaves. Facts are so damn annoying...
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      • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 10 months ago
        Interesting, may be true, but does not matter in the context of my statement.

        "(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed. " - confederate constitution.

        Note nothing prevents a law that stops the right of property for a white slave only a negro slave. It is very clear that the south wanted the right to own a negro slave protected very specifically.

        "(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States. " - Confederate Constitution

        Again, only the expansion of Negro slavery was protected. No white slavery protection.

        You will note that this was written in April of 1861 a month before the US civil war started. The context in which I brought it up was that it shows without much wiggle room that the south was very concerned with slavery and the attack on it from the north. So much so that they protected Black Slavery constitutionally when they wrote their constitution.

        Facts are all that matters, and the context of those facts matter just as much.
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        • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
          No one is claiming that slavery was not part of the divide. But it was not only over slavery. As pointed out earlier here, tariffs were a major part, but also the continuing rift between the lifestyles of industrializing North and agricultural South. The fact that Lincoln was elected president without even being on the ballot in several of the Southern states was more oil on the fire. Again, look at it in context - much of the (White) Southern population was very excited about the separation and the forthcoming war - yet most of them did not own slaves. In context, could you picture a majority in Arkansas today happily going to war for the benefit of Wal-Mart?
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    • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
      Actually, the Civil War did not start over slavery. Slavery was part of the problem, but not the primary issue. MD, MO, DC continued to have slavery until after the Civil War, although part of the Union. Slavery became a rallying cry for the Union only a year into the war after embarrassing loses. The Confederacy should have recognized the power of propaganda and freed the slaves at that point, defanging the Union. Hindsight...
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      • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 10 months ago
        Read the confederate constitution and it will be difficult to continue to make that argument. The south makes it very clear that an element of the war for them was the preservation of slavery.
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        • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
          Yes, preservation of slavery and other institutions that defined the South's way of life and the States' ability and right to determine those for themselves without the interference of the Federal government. It would be interesting to find the records, if they exist and haven't been suppressed, of the position of the Black slave owners at the time. Keep in mind that most Whites in the South did not own slaves, yet fought for the Confederacy for the right to determine their own future. In a way that you and I would never burn an American flag, yet would defend others' right to do so (not sure about you...). Freedom is often a very sticky point, especially in this case. But it is plain wrong to judge people of another era by the standards that did not exist at the time.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago
            As good a place as any to add this. This thread and one or two others one saying read the Constitution of the Confederate States brought me to re-read that document.

            Except for the slavery issue portions it looked like a much improved USA Constitution but then so did the cleaned up version Panama adopted. As our instructor said they are only as good as the people who interpret and operate from them.

            That led me back to some research in linked area (not linked on the net but within the boundaries of the issue at hand). Katy bar the door! What did I find? The answer to one of tow troubling questions. Namely why African Americans would support Democrats which is still the pro-slavery party and has been all along? Not that the Republicans are pure as driven snow especially now they are in bed with Demos but in comparison?

            So a bit of historical fact checking and I came up with reasons why the Blue Dog Democrats and the RINO - less Republicans especially those currently in Congress should bolt the Government Party scarf up the bulk of the independents and splinter party and offer a meaningful platform ....they won't but it's a dream

            So....New Post under History seems like a good choice since failure to learn and understand same is the sure route to a lemming finish.

            Watch for it?

            PS I didn't change the Constitution that was another project in school. Rewrite it and defend your position.Big time extra credit.
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            • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
              You are absolutely correct in stating that any constitution, or any document, is only as good as the people behind it. The Constitution of the Soviet Union was remarkably similar to the US Constitution. Does anything else needs to be said? Except, perhaps, for the fact that some chapters in that darn document, especially those called the Bill or Rights, are a real thorn to the statists and the socialists, so besides ignoring them, they would really prefer to get rid of them altogether. It's cleaner that way...
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago
                The Patriot Act did get rid of the Bill of Rights. The claim is that only applies to terrorists. The written form provides no limits.

                Those that trade liberty for safety lose both. But now it's been three four year elections and the ones in between. The voting public has chosen to ignore the Constitution to the point the politicians openly scorn that document and still get elected.

                You get what you ask for.
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  • Posted by kkeen842 8 years, 10 months ago
    I'm against the retailers decisions to not sell the flag, but agree with taking the flag down from STATE properties - it represents oppression to many, and symbolizes what was to be the perpetuation & expansion of slavery, according to the Confederate Constitution!
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  • Posted by broskjold22 8 years, 10 months ago
    I can understand the "Don't Tread On Me" flag. The confederate flag is a more difficult issue for me. That is because in context it can be taken to indicate the threat of the initiation of physical force. If a foreign aggressor were to threaten the US with the initiation of physical force explicitly, the US would be obligated to destroy the enemy. Implicit reference to the initiation of physical force need further investigation. For example, if a rogue nation claims all allies of a certain nation will perish, and the US is one those, then that would be a clear but implicit threat of the initiation of physical force. Does the confederate flag fall within this same classification or doesn't it?
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    • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
      Are you against the initiation of physical force under all circumstances? Including breaking out of bondage? Should a slave, born into slavery, remain a slave, so as not to initiate physical force. Be caeful of absolutes.
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      • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 10 months ago
        The slave in question is not initiating force but responding to it. Embrace absolutes.
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        • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
          So a slave born into slavery, in a society that accepts slavery, would not, in your opinion, have to initiate force to break out of slavery?
          How about a person born into a socialist system that requires him to slave for society - would he not be initiating force to break free?
          Sure, you can try to make an argument that he is responding to being forced, but the fact of the matter is that it would be the slave who first picks up arms.
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          • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 10 months ago
            Yes as to the first question and no as to the second. In each case the individual who uses force to escape his captors is responding to the force that enslaves him/her. You are confusing the use of force with the initiation of force.
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            • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
              That is because the use of force, as in almost anything else, could very well be confusing. That is why I try to avoid absolutes. And now you have me confused - why "yes" to the first question and "no" to the second? What is the difference between the two? Aren't they both the same, only varying in the degree?
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              • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 10 months ago
                Sorry for the confusion. I misread your use of negatives. My fault. The two examples are the same and the answer to the first question was also no. But again, one ought not to conflate the two concepts of use and initiation. You are not alone in doing so that's for sure. Pacifism, for instance, is based on that conflation in large part.
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                • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
                  Perhaps this should be taken to its own post, but I am interested in the subject as this obviously not the first occurrence of the theme.
                  When I tell my son not to initiate force in school, but only to defend himself if attacked, those are definitive, black/white concepts for a 15-yr old. But life is more complicated. What happens when someone places a swastika in my face? Does that justify (not legally, I understand, but morally) physical force?
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                  • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 10 months ago
                    Actually the physical non-consentual placement of anything (not just a swastika) on your person does justify the use of comparable force to remove it both morally and legally (an assault has taken place). The non-consensual placement constitutes the initiation of force.
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                  • Posted by broskjold22 8 years, 10 months ago
                    You have the absolute justification and responsibility to defend yourself from physical force, contextually. Meaning if it is intended as hatred toward us, then we know the brand of hatred this represents is violent, can escalate, and we ought to take action against it, fighting it or leaving the scene, whichever puts our life first, objectively. If it is intended as a prank, and we know this, then perhaps only strongly reprimanding and demanding a heartfelt apology from the perpetrator would be required. That said, I personally can not stand the sight of a swastika and I like to recall what happens to the Nazis at the end of Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark.
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  • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 10 months ago
    Btw, were I still on active duty, and I drove through Columbia SC, as a soldier of the army of the U.S., I might feel obligated to cut down that confederate flag as an enemy flag.
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    • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago
      Spoken like a true soldier. If you don’t like something, even if it is the private property of somebody else, flying from their house (also private), you would feel obligated to tear it down---a feeling, no doubt instilled by your superior officers who would give you the authority to do so. The Purpose of a Military is to “Kill People and Break Things.” Stanley Milgram showed how terrible this is.
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      • Posted by SaltyDog 8 years, 10 months ago
        With all due respect, as a career officer I take great exception to your remarks.
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        • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago
          With all due respect, as a career human, I take exception to those who want to initiate the use of force to kill those who have not initiated the use of force or to destroy property which does not belong to the destroyer. How do you justify your “obligation” to do so?
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          • Posted by SaltyDog 8 years, 10 months ago
            I do not now, nor have I ever had the obligation to which you refer. That's not the way our military is trained, nor are the activities that you suggest even tolerated. Those are the facts, and that's my last word on this discussion with you.
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            • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago
              Would you change your mind if you learned U.S. troops shot and killed US people on US soil at the order of the commanding officer? Soiunds to me like the military does what it is ordered to do and Milgram was right. No reply expected.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago
            It's the job and the rules people like you gave me as operational and legal guidance. When you all voted in favor of and sent us out to do your bidding. If you are career human God save humanity. How did and do you justify your obligation to do that oh great unwashed American Public? All rights and no responsibilities. If you take exception to those who do initiate the use of force - what are you doing to oust them from office?

            We don't get a choice. That's your job. So far I can't say much for the work ethic nor the quality.
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            • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago
              First, I did not vote for the folks for whom you claim to do your unquestioned bidding. Second, the discussion topic here, as I understand it, is whether or not a person ought (a moral question) to tear down and destroy a piece of material (flag) owned by somebody else. Third, the fallacy of diversion says when you have no answer to the topic at hand, divert the discussion to something with which you have more comfort. Introducing some sort of god to save humanity will also is off point. Fourth, my justification for anything is not on topic, I raised the question of how does one justify the initiation of the use of force and the destruction of somebody else’s property? To which I have seen no answer in this thread. I see self-justification for initiating force against those who are peaceful. Fifth, what I am doing to oust “them” from office also is off topic.

              Elder and Paul put it this way:

              The Problem: Everyone thinks; it is our nature to do so. But much of our thinking, left to itself, is biased, distorted, partial, uninformed or down-right prejudiced. Yet the quality of our life and that of what we produce, make, or build depends precisely on the quality of our thought. Shoddy thinking is costly, both in money and in quality of life. Excellence in thought, however, must be systematically cultivated.

              A Definition: Critical thinking is the art of analyzing and evaluating thinking with a view to improving it.

              The Result: A well cultivated critical thinker: raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely; gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to interpret it effectively; comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards; thinks open mindedly within alternative systems of thought, recognizing and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.

              Critical thinking is, in short, self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking. It requires rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem solving abilities and a commitment to overcoming our native egocentrism and sociocentrism.

              Paul, Richard; Elder, Linda (2014-10-20). Miniature Guide to Critical Thinking Concepts & Tools (Thinker's Guide Library) (Kindle Locations 29-41). Foundation for Critical Thinking. Kindle Edition.
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago
                Very well thought out and presented and it ducks having to answer. Long version of Good Try? It's a shame your standards led to 12 more years....Back Back to your ivory tower with the ivy growing all over and take your self esteem with you.

                Responsibilities then Rights So....let's once again ask the fatal question? The diversion didn't work.

                Who? Who do you suggest besides a bunch of book burners and historical revisionists (that's the answer to your flag problem) Who?

                and what does how does one justify the intiation of the use of force and destruction of others property qualify.

                Well let's see.

                We don't get a choice. When we volunteer or are ha ha drafted and speaking of which why did the movement to get rid of the draft quit? When we volunteer we no longer enjoy the privileges of the civilian citizen. We get the uneviable task of doing what we are told to do by the the civilian citizens. Constitution is replaced by UCMJ which the civilian community gave us. We don't get to have a union and vote on it. That is your job. We NEVER initiate the use of force. That's done by an opponent of the country at the direction of the country. Of course lately there has been no need to initiate anything. You did it for us. We up hold our oath of office. You have none. You are all about rights and no responsibilities and not worth the effort. Even the excuses are feeble.
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            • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 10 months ago
              I did not cast such a vote.
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago
                You is inclusive of the general public. Amazing how many disavow voting the a warmonger into office. Hard to see how all of you civilians ever managed to a dozen years non stop conflict. Easy for you to see inclusively it doesn't cost you anything of importance.

                Next time....do it yourself (inclusively)

                One of lifes's truisms treat your military despicably they learn to despise you in return. Personally I don't believe anyone should have the franchise that hasn't earned it. Accidents of birth have failed as a standard.

                No one understands the nature and horrors of war better than a soldier who is sent - for nothing. Inclusively - when we were told it was for something. You must have meant the paycheck.

                Come to think of it you inclusives are behind on that as well.
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                • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 10 months ago
                  I don't understand your reply. You stated "you all" voted. I assumed that meant everyone. Now you say you meant "inclusive of the general public" whatever that means. I am a member of the "general public" I guess which means you are saying I am bound by others' votes. That is true as a matter of power of the government, but please note that does not confer responsibility on me. One good check on "non stop conflict" is the use of a Declaration of War so those representatives claiming the necessity of war have to go on record. The cowards in D.C. have not done this since December 1941. What do you mean by your pronouncement that no one should be allowed to vote "who hasn't earned it"?
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      • Posted by $ winterwind 8 years, 10 months ago
        The U.N. building is not private property - it is properly essentially rented, in part by the U.S.
        I might settle for removing the U.S. flag - and, by implication, our support. No, I want it to be stronger than that. Shut it down [yeah, I know - fat chance!] and return the flags of the various countries, which are their property, to them. In what form they would be returned.....I leave to your more than fertile imaginations - but I'll lend you my scissors, at least.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
        Have some respect. The purpose of the military is to protect the people of a nation from "all threats, foreign and domestic". The only reason we have a right to speak our minds is because of the soldiers who defend it.

        The Confederacy seceded from the United States of America and initiated war when they fired on Fort Sumpter. The flag of the Confederacy was the flag of an enemy army and wherever it was raised it proclaimed the allegiance of that area to the Confederacy and its ideals - just like raising the Stars and Stripes proclaims allegiance to the United States and its ideals. There were two sides in that war - the bloodiest war in US history both in terms of total casualties as well as percentage of population affected - and those who lived at that time were either on one side or the other. There were no fence-sitters.
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        • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 10 months ago
          I agree that we should respect our military people as they do much for us.

          The post above states that, and I will intentionally use different wording that captures the same principle, nut likely not the intent of the original poster. Also removed all military specific references, and I do not agree with the next paragraph.

          I would feel obligated to go and cut down someones personal property because I do not agree with what it represents.

          The basic principle boiled down like this is what I walk away from the statement with. The principle is wrong as it initiates force against another.

          I do respect the military as without it we would have even less freedom than we have today. I do not respect and ideal that at its heart is what this comment appears to be at first glance.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
            I think the question that raises its head is this: how _much_ dissent do we permit in society before it no longer becomes society at all? It is one thing to say we refuse to initiate violence, but what about those who - as the Confederacy did some 150 years ago - openly rebel against society itself? It calls into my mind the kingmen...

            Are they not first declaring their intent to wage a war of ideals and so does the reaction really qualify as an initiation of force? If someone hung an ISIS flag (it actually happened) in front of their home, would your first reaction be anything other than to identify that household as an overt and proclaimed threat to liberty?

            Free speech is not an unlimited right. A nation's self-preservation at some point must come into play in this discussion.
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            • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 10 months ago
              Sure I would make a judgement on the house with the Isis flag that I would like to keep an eye on them. I would also go back to my house, oil and clean my guns and be prepared.

              At the same time I would be thankful I live in a place where they can hang their Isis flag. That in and of itself does me no harm.

              When they want to force me to hang an Isis flag, that's what the freshly cleaned and oiled guns are for.

              "When the government violates the people's rights, insurrection is, for the people and for each portion of the people, the most sacred of the rights and the most indispensible of duties."
              -Marquis De Lafayette

              This was what the south was doing in the civil war. They were responding to a force that was being initiated on them and the way of life they had. They were also rebelling against a ever growing federal government that put them down in order to maintain power. In my opinion the US that had free commerce, individual as the supreme entity in the land... ended with the start of the civil war because the side that won was fighting for the right of the federal government to use force, not of military but of politics to force a behavior out of some of its citizens.

              The Civil war was the fundamental shift in thinking that would result in Sherman's Law in 1890 which was the beginning of the end of the free market.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
                "This was what the south was doing in the civil war. They were responding to a force that was being initiated on them and the way of life they had."

                If they were supporting a society that promoted the freedom of all men - not just those of one color - I could accept that argument and say their cause was just. That simply was not the case. It is contradictory to state that one acts to preserve rights when the intent is to deprive or continue to deprive certain others of rights. I understand the argument and the consequences for economics may be what they say, but I can not agree that the cause was just nor justifiable.
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                • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 10 months ago
                  If the cause was to protect slavery I would agree it was not a just cause. That was only a piece of what the cause was. That piece was unjust.

                  The other major piece was the right of states and by extension the rights of individuals to live for themselves and not for the federal government.

                  The two were in contradiction in the south. That does not make the first any less wrong and the second any less right. Since they were connected the victory of the north condemned them both to no longer exist
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                  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
                    I agree. However, that legacy of taint is and will be forever linked to the Confederate flag. As such, if it were up to me, I would abandon it and choose something untainted like the Gadsden flag. No mixed messages, no meanings left up to interpretation.
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                    • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 10 months ago
                      No disagreement.

                      Were I too be completely forth right I have only two flags that I would fly at my home. One is my family coat of arms and the other is the 13 stars and 13 strips of the revolutionary war. Both represent something I can fully support; no other flag I know of shares that same full level of support.
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            • Posted by Technocracy 8 years, 10 months ago
              The confederacy did not rebel against society itself. They rebelled against the northern led push for a much stronger federal government at the expense of the rights of individual states.

              If they rebelled against society in general, they would not have created the confederate constitution to guarantee rights to their citizens.
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              • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago
                Correct. The South was upset by the cronycapitalsim of the North that prevented their doing business except via the government-approved middlement. The South succeeded, it did not rebel. Major difference. The 13 colonies succeeded, too, from England. There is nothing in the Constitution that says a state may not leave. When then Supreme Court Chief Justice Taney told Lincoln (informally) it was legal for the South to leave, Lincoln had an arrest warrant issed by a magistrate to arrest Taney. It was never served, but to this day Lincoln is the only president to try to get a Supreme Court Justice arrest for a difference of opinion. There was no rebellion against society.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
                They rebelled against the authority of the United States government because they were losing their stranglehold on the slavery debate in the halls of Congress. Up to that point, the superior numbers afforded them by the 3/5 compromise put them in control of any talk of ending slavery. Buchanan's election was a clear signal to the South that their political influence in the Federal Government had declined to the point that the Southern States would be hard pressed to keep quashing the abolitionist movement. The North's advances in industry and manufacturing came with an increase in population and voting base where the South's population increase was in slaves and their commensurate lower voting power.

                It is one thing to say that the Confederates were advocates of States' rights (which may very well be the case) but quite another to claim that their motivations were to the intent of promoting the liberty of all men. The Confederacy rebelled so that they could protect the institution of slavery as it promoted their economy and their ideals.
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                • Posted by Technocracy 8 years, 10 months ago
                  Lets agree to disagree on this one Blarman. People have been arguing about this one since before it ended.
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                  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
                    That's fine. As XenokRoy and I agreed, there is a taint on the Confederate Flag from its association with the Confederacy. That taint isn't going to disappear and is always going to be associated with the defense of slavery regardless of anything else that was going on. So regardless of what those still hoisting it _want_ it to say, it still screams racism and slavery. If you want to hoist that above your state Capitol or above your home, you also take on that taint, again regardless of your intent. It doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but you are welcome to do what you want.

                    I'm from the west. My ancestors have been in the west since before the Civil War, so I've got no family history from either side to bias my feelings on the matter. I just look at it from a symbology standpoint. What I can't understand is why 150 years later anyone would still fly that flag. That's like the Macedonians trying to resurrect and fly their flag in the faces of the rest of Greece.
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                    • Posted by Technocracy 8 years, 10 months ago
                      Perhaps this (From NPR)

                      The "Stars and Bars" flag, currently the subject of controversy, was actually the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.

                      After the war ended, the symbol became a source of Southern pride and heritage, as well as a remembrance of Confederate soldiers who died in battle.

                      I don't know why they want to fly it, not my issue on here.

                      My disagreement is over slavery as the primary driver for the Civil War.
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                      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
                        That's all fine, but slavery _was_ one of the drivers for the war. The economics of the South relied heavily on slave-based labor for their agricultural exports - the subjects of the tariffs. Do I think the tariffs were fair? No. But the exports themselves were the direct products of slave labor. Without those products (made more efficient and demanding even more slave labor as a result of Eli Whitney's cotton gin), there is nothing to place tariffs on.

                        Do I think that Robert E Lee fought to protect slavery? No. His own comments on the matter when he was approached by Abraham Lincoln told the story: that he was a Virginian first and an American second - a predominant feeling of that era that was demonstrated by the various state militias that were mustered to fight. "Stonewall" Jackson felt the same, declining to fight for the Union even though he was the preeminent authority on artillery bombardment in the States at the time as an instructor at West Point.

                        It takes two to tango. It takes two to war. All I can do is look at the causes for which each side is/was fighting. With many it is clear cut - WW II is a great example. With the Civil War, there is right and wrong on both sides. Regardless of that, however, the fact remains that history will always tie the Confederacy to slavery and the "stars and bars" is a symbol of that - just as history will always tie the red and black swastika to the Germans and the Holocaust. You can defend it if you wish, but don't expect much support.
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        • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago
          I think you need to do some independent study of the war, not just was was taught to all of us in school. Remember, the victors write the history. When I did so, it was at first difficult to believe how terrible Lincoln was and how he was more concerned with power than justice. A book place to start is "The Real Lincol" with an intro by Dr Walter Williams or the book "The South Was Right!" by two historians named Kennedy.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 10 months ago
            Not relevant to the point you were making. Your arguments here are about justifying the South's secession. My comments were about flying an enemy flag.

            I find it interesting that there is so much vitriol against Lincoln, however - a man who failed in every election until that of President. This wasn't a man of vast political power. And if one reads the texts of the Lincoln-Douglas debates, it becomes pretty difficult to reconcile the Lincoln you seem to want to portray with the one in those debates. Reading Lincoln's other writings, too, such as the Gettysburg Address (which was never written as a monumental speech) tells me much more about the man than a historian from 150 years after the fact. I'll take your comments with a very large grain of salt.
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      • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 10 months ago
        This is an enemy flag flying over a public building. It is treason and SC should either remove it or have its representation removed from Congress.

        And you are a fool.
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        • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago
          I did not realize you were still fighting a war that has been over for more than a century. We fools moved forward after the hostilities of the War for Southern Independence ended. I guess we should keep burning and pillaging. Right?
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          • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 10 months ago
            I'm not the one flying the enemy's flag. If they moved on they would not be either.
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            • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago
              I see a basic example of "Us verus Them" that seems to dominate the military mindset. Pity.
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              • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 10 months ago
                So the confederate battle flag is not a symbol of an army that was te enemy of the U.S.?

                You really should stick with facts rather than your opinion of what you feel might be some sort of military mindset. Especially when it's irrelevant to the item in question.
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                • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 10 months ago
                  Cognitive dissonance explains both your mindset and the uselessness of further discussion. If you are not familiar with this concept, then I respectfully and seriously recommend you do some independent study regarding thinking processes. David Kelley's book "the Art of Reasoning" would be an excellent start.
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago
                Why? That's what you good civilians sent us out to do. Then came the waffling then joining the other side. All those wasted lives a monument to the civilian lack of moral values or mindset. Pity.

                Next time go do the job yourself. Whatever it is. I'm not interested anymore.
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  • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 10 months ago
    Some of you have already seen the flag I created and posted elsewhere on this site.

    Nine vertical red and white stripes - the original flag of the Sons of Liberty. With the following superimposed in blue:

    I swear by my life and my love of it.

    I created tshirts and such at cafe press (www.cafepress.com/iswearbymylife). But when I looked into actual flags it was going to be over $200 for a songle flag. I still might do it. Just not now.

    At Porcfest this week I'm flying a Brandywine battle flag. It was flown by a PA regiment at the battle of brandywine in the Revolution about 15 miles from where I live.
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  • Posted by waytodude 8 years, 10 months ago
    I thought about order a Confederate flag just because they say I can't. Just now got an email with nice offer for 12 game pump for $169 I think I'll opt for gun I think I'm going to need it more than a flag.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 10 months ago
    Ebay bans a huge list of products and services, many of which are perfectly legal and moral. They need competition and lots of it.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 10 months ago
    True enough robgambrill, the banning of anything that reminds us of history, good, bad or ugly should not happen. It's not the flag that's bad no more than it's the gun that's bad. But to the issue at hand, I have to say, yes they were rebels and didn't like being told what to do, but they were doing wrong to human beings which was an issue we had long set aside in order to keep the country together. Had we split up the country...the south would have likely surcomed to communism and continued it's practice of slavery in one form or another.[that's where democrats came from...and you thought it was the cabbage patch...LMAO] It was that mindless set, that narcissistic hubris that created the idea of different races and whom should be dominant over them. That is not what our forefathers stood for or intended for America...that's what we were running away from.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 10 months ago
    isn't free speech kin to free flag? . maybe we should
    list it under "false flag" and see if the Battle Flag of
    the Army of Northern Virginia might survive there??? -- j

    p.s. this flag inquisition smells like "hate crime" logic --
    you're damned for both the crime and the thought. . to me,
    it's double jeopardy.
    .
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago
      Most definitely suppression of historical information in an incremental form. Mmmm now who would profit from that?
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      • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 10 months ago
        we could, by selling museum pieces depicting the
        Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia in a
        curio fashion!!! -- j

        p.s. the mascot at my high school is the rebel.
        no flag, but the guy looks a lot like a red-jacketed
        colonel Sanders.
        .
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 8 years, 10 months ago
    I don't understand how vocal minority groups in this country manipulate the local and federal govt to get what they want while the majority remain silent. It is amazing how illiterate people have become. They must not teach about the Civil War in either in grade school or high school. This makes me very angry when the these minorites don't understand the American History. I think most school administrators are communists. They're creating a false history to teach young children. All this brainwashing will ruin our country.
    That's right stick your head in the sand and pretend that this battle flag won't becoming out anytime soon. When the 2nd Civil War erupts/Secession that flag will probably carried by every militia of those states.
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  • Posted by jtrikakis 8 years, 10 months ago
    If you are traveling in I81 just past Bristol, VA inside Tenn, you will see a huge Confederate Flag flying on top of a left on you right. They have lights to make it visible at night.
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