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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 8 years, 11 months ago
    Hello Mr. DeSapio,
    Patriot act author, Jim Sensenbrenner, claims the NSA has violated the law and exceeded its mandate. http://www.businessinsider.com/patriot-a... They have clearly violated our fourth amendment. It is one thing for a private phone company which lacks the power of force, like government has, to keep records of metadata. It is entirely something else for the government to do it. The Constitution is not a limit on your voluntary contracts with a private entity. It is a limit on the abilities and authority of government. The phone company cannot put you in jail or raid your house in the middle of the night with a swat team while violating due process. If the government can do proper investigating and show probable cause then they can subpoena those records from the phone company. That is legal. A blanket collection is unconstitutional. Even if the data does not have "content" it still violates your rights and yields much information about your life that is none of their business and off limits without probable cause. There is no reason why the NSA can't get a judge to authorize collection from a phone company for specific records of connections made by a known terrorist to other numbers during a legitimate investigation. That is constitutional and will yield a volume of manageable intelligence and I dare say better results. Wading through a mountain of hay/data looking for a needle is a waste of time. The constitution was not written to make law enforcement's job easy. It was written to protect the rights of the innocent. If the NSA must work smarter and harder so be it. Frankly, with this government's record I do not trust them when they say they are not storing or examining content either. To that I say bollocks!
    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
    "We can't allow this. We can't allow the rule of law to be so trod upon that we live in an arbitrary governmental world where they collect anything they want any time they want."
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    • Posted by khalling 8 years, 11 months ago
      Going to vote for him?
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
        Yes!! Do you think a better candidate promising to reduce the size and intrusiveness of gov't will appear? I can't imagine it.
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        • Posted by khalling 8 years, 11 months ago
          well, I guess the Hillary fundraisers will experience some losses :)
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          • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 10 months ago
            Indeed there was an article that said she had lost ground based on "trustworthiness and honesty". Can you believe that?
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            • Posted by khalling 8 years, 10 months ago
              I saw that article. there were still an non-insignificant group who thought she was! and that she related to all of us!
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              • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 10 months ago
                Well, yes, I know that we have a large group in the population who are delusional..still some hope that a few will wake up and we will not be saddled with this nightmare. She comes with "impeach me" tattooed on her wrinkles and that is just a waste of time.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
            Hillary has the advantages of 1) I'm more likely to know someone on her cabinet / staff than on anyone else's and 2) she's a master politician who can get things done in Washington (which is bad if they're the wrong things). I do not believe she will to reduce gov't. I will have a hard time going to her events if she's running, but I probably will end up going to something, esp if it means I have a chance to talk to her, because it seems like *everyone* knows her-- she's a politician indeed. I'll have to think of one or two hard questions to politely put to her if/when I meet her.

            Being able to lobby her, though, is worth less than someone who is already publically saying he will reduce gov't.
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            • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 11 months ago
              If you think that your questions may alter how she approaches an aspect of economic or personal freedom, then it is well worth your putting up with her event to try to do so. While no one on this list (that I know of) favors her as a future president, there is a good chance that she will be the one elected.

              Even making an incremental change to her policies will be of benefit in such a case. Hillary as pres would still, in my opinion, be a total disaster but 'damage control' may be all that we can do.

              If you do not think you can change anything, then stay home and read a good book instead.

              Jan
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
                "If you think that your questions may alter how she approaches an aspect of economic or personal freedom, then it is well worth your putting up with her event to try to do so. While no one on this list (that I know of) favors her as a future president, there is a good chance that she will be the one elected. "
                It seems like almost everyone I know but me favors her.
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            • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 11 months ago
              Hillary gets things done?? Have you really checked her record? I don't believe she has accomplished a single thing on her own and it appears that things she has had her fingers in never turn out good. Benghazi

              Is not lobbying the same as mooching...off the politicians??

              One more time I am confused by your statements CG.
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              • Posted by Flootus5 8 years, 10 months ago
                Ed, I agree with you. I seem totally confused. After repeating an already stated statement recognizing that most here have no stomach for a very dangerous aspirant to the WH, and then following with a statement that CG does not know anybody that favors Hillary - how does that equate to anything opposing or supporting her?

                Wait a minute, simple premises, I am not the one confused here.
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                • Posted by Flootus5 8 years, 10 months ago
                  Correction. With morning coffee, I see I misinterpreted CG's add on statement. Everybody he knows supports her/it. Makes more sense, now.

                  Must be lonely though, surrounded with Hillaryites.
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
                "I don't believe she has accomplished a single thing on her own and it appears that things she has had her fingers in never turn out good. Benghazi "
                I did not follow the Benghazi attack closely, but it the reaction seemed political. I didn't see how any US politicians stood to benefit from lying about the motivations of the attack. The claims of a coverup seemed to be politicians doing their thing to take advantage of a horrible crime.

                "Is not lobbying the same as mooching...off the politicians?? "
                It's mooching if you get gov't money out of it. Lobbying for good policies, though, is very important.
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                • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
                  CG, the u.s. state dept hung those folks out to dry,
                  in Benghazi, and she was its head. . there could be
                  fault there. -- j
                  .
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
                    "u.s. state dept hung those folks out to dry"
                    Why would they do that?
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                    • Posted by Flootus5 8 years, 10 months ago
                      Maybe, maybe, just to cover their ass for some very bad behavior.
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                      • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 10 months ago
                        This only confirms what I've been hearing from other sources. Obama was dealing arms to Isis, and that's what some of those killed were there to do. Naturally, when the deal went sour it was very convenient for BO that they not come home.
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                      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 10 months ago
                        I haven't read up on it, but it strikes me as the comments about the Exxon spill, President Bush's response on hearing about the Sept 11 attacks, and engineering failures I've been involved with. It's so easy when things go wrong to play political games condemning the people doing the work.
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                    • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 10 months ago
                      as I see it, it was either:::

                      raw incompetence -- they couldn't believe the danger
                      to them, or

                      pretense -- pretending that BHO's statement that
                      al qaeda was on its heels was true, and behaving
                      accordingly

                      either is horrible when it comes to people's lives,
                      I believe. . we should not have people who are
                      responsible for this tragic event ... in elective office. . imho. -- j
                      .
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                • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 11 months ago
                  I am still confused CG. You state you are for smaller limited government but the only way to have that is to get government out of people's lives, not by creating and lobbying for more government policy. It makes no difference what policy. The truth is any time government is creating a policy of any kind, it is creating the policy for one group against another group. There is a winner and there is a loser. That is the only reason to create a policy at all. This IMHO is looting at the point of a gun.

                  So convince me otherwise. Please give me an example of a policy that does not have this effect.
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
                    Maybe it should be called un-policy, but what I mean is less spending and less intrusiveness.
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                    • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 10 months ago
                      You can lobby until you turn blue but will never get less out of Hillary and all other progressives. Even difficulty to get less out of the other side.
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                      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 10 months ago
                        "Even difficulty to get less out of the other side."
                        The other side is the Republicans, who I think are worse, unless you count talk with no action. If talk counts, President Clinton gave some anti-big-gov't talk, but clearly Republicans are better at the talk. Unfortunately their actions are worse when it comes to making gov't larger and more intrusive.
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                        • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 10 months ago
                          I would argue they are no worse but no better either that is except for a select few. I know of zero progressive with includes 99% if the dems that reduce the size of government.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
          Nor a worse one than a member of the establishment. But he sure would smoke out and identify the opposition and the degree of opposition. So what were his campaign promises and what is his voting record.Is he reasonably in danger of arrest under the Patriot Act''s replacement rules? I have a hard time trusting anyone who sleeps with the enemy. And as for who else I thought we settled that. There is no one else that's willing to be a target None that I've heard of - anyone else. Some retired Air Force Colonel named West was mentioned the other day. Anyone? Still trying to track that one down.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 11 months ago
    The sad thing is, had the camera zoomed out you would have seen an empty Senate Chamber. That should be stopped. If the Senate is in session, they should all be present or lose their right to vote.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 11 months ago
    This acerbic, sometimes rude, Senator makes powerful enemies. But, it is easy to tell that he speaks his truth regardless of the consequences. That alone is amazing in the current Washington climate. I think he would make his namesake proud. How many will recognize what he is doing as an unbelievably good thing? Unfortunately, not too many, I'm afraid. I can't always agree with him, but damn it, I can't help but admire him.
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  • Posted by GaryL 8 years, 11 months ago
    About 240 years ago some very wise men gave us a set of guidelines to protect us from this. Our failure to follow the guidelines they set is what is causing all the problems. Every time I see a Constitutional Law Professor making changes or failing to follow the set of rules I have to wonder when will we bring the gallows back!
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 11 months ago
    The latest thing: the government will pass a law to turn the telcos into snitches. And they're going to call it the USA-FREEDOM Act. "Uniting and Strengthening America by Fulfilling Rights and Ending Eavesdropping, Dragnet-collection, and Online Monitoring." Really? I smell a Cuffy Meigs-style rat.

    All that aside, let's just think about this for a minute. Galt's Gulch did not have a state of any kind. The best it had was the Triumvirs, whom I would call a Committee of Safety. And that Committee was able, in a trice, to assemble an Air and Land Militia to pull off a rescue operation.

    I think it's time somebody tested that idea. We have had some small-scale tests. The attackers of the Curtis Culwell Center (Garland, Texas) fell to an off-duty police officer with nothing but his service weapon--one shot each. Who knows what a fully armed and drilled militia can do?
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
      And which state is going to produce one? Nothing illegal about it and all they have to do is do it. to start with funding the idea fully with no federal money. No that is not the National Guard it's 95% federal funded and think about the name. There's a reason for saying National. Absent a smidgen of legality under the old constitution would it stand any chance under the Patriot Act? Or just be treated as an armed insurrection. The military itself who has the right, the duty, and the responsibility has refused to act. Things are a little different when the bullets start flying it's no longer rhetoric,What saves you is the second word. I'ts only a thought...not an action. Until thinking is declared illegal. About five seconds after Hillary is elected.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 11 months ago
    When it comes to metadata collection by the NSA some perspective is in order. Virtually all companies that provide public service collect information on the quality of that service. This is done for the purpose of locating weak spots and strengths and is a legitimate function of such an organization. The post office collects metadata on mail and package delivery as do private delivery companies, telephone companies and internet service providers. This is done primarily to monitor the quality of service and to assure that distribution resources are optimized to serve the customer and to maximize efficiency and ultimately profits. Users of these services should be aware of this information collection policy and why it is in place. The problem arises because this information has significant potential for misuse. I did some consulting some years ago for a major telephone company and part of the task was the collection of data that would improve service by guiding the design of both inside and outside plant facilities. Much of the design of telephone central office switching systems is guided by this information so it is essential that it be collected and analyzed. These organizations maintain large data bases that go back years so that trends can be identified and system performance optimized accordingly. So the question is not whether these service providers should collect and maintain these data because they already do so. The issue is whether or not the government has a legitimate claim to it. We live in a time where government intrusion into private lives is of great concern but it is important that we know who is actually doing what before we start pointing fingers.
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    • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 11 months ago
      If you can show that basic police work, investigating crime, is so inept at catching terrorists, that we have to assume that EVERYONE'S records need to be collected, and that that will improve security, I'd certainly like to see it. We know that the Tsarnaev brothers were on the radar long before they blew up the marathon, and NOTHING was done. The same with most of the local terrorists, from the Ft. Hood shooter to the schmucks who attempted to shoot up the Garland, TX art show. Collecting MY information would have yielded less than nothing, because the return is negative; I'm not engaged in any activity threatening this country, so spending money on me, and letting the Tsarnaevs slip through, is stupid.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 11 months ago
    “This is a debate over your right to be left alone.” – Rand Paul

    From an Objectivist perspective, what is a “right to be left alone” and how far does it extend? Is privacy actually a right? Ayn Rand said little about the subject, and I haven’t yet found a comprehensive treatment of the issue by any other writer in the Objectivist movement.

    It’s easy to demonstrate that mass surveillance of its citizens by a government is not acceptable in a free society, since such widespread snooping is not a proper function of government and can easily lead to massive violations of individual rights.

    In the area of private actions, however, the issue becomes murkier, especially if one accepts the premise that rights can be violated only by the initiation of force (or fraud). What are the rights of an individual in regard to true information that he or she does not wish to be publicly disclosed? Does truthful gossip constitute an initiation of force and a violation of rights? What about blackmail? I would consider the latter activity to be clearly unethical, but I can’t find anything in the Objectivist ethics that addresses this issue.

    Do we need to expand the definition of rights to include characteristics other than freedom from the initiation of force or fraud?
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    • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
      isn't it like a combination of the 4th and 10th amendments?
      unreasonable search and seizure plus States' rights?
      what is not given to the feds is reserved for US?! -- j
      .
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  • Posted by samrigel 8 years, 11 months ago
    To anyone who believes that the NSA or any Gov't branch has actually stopped collecting this data simply because the bill expired should seek counselling immediately to preserve what is left of your mentality. Had it not been for Snowden we would not have known about any of this. Somehow I don't believe the Gov't has shut down all of the computers and satellites!
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 11 months ago
    I thought this was a real barn-burner! My thoughts...after not voting for a while?...Either this guy is on the ballot or I'm not voting again. I know that may tick some people off. But, Rand is the only guy who gets it as far as I'm concerned. I honestly see zero chance in hell the GOP will back him.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
    the patriot act went "out there" and BHO exploited it
    further. . we do need to renegotiate it, and Dr. Paul's
    efforts are valuable for this. . but the metadata is not
    listening in to our calls. . it's close, though, and scary. -- j
    .
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  • Posted by gaiagal 8 years, 11 months ago
    Call me cynical, but this is a dog and pony show. The expiration of parts of the Patriot Act will not have a major affect on the gathering and sharing of the personal information of US Citizens. It will have a major marketing effect on the majority of people who believe (or want to believe) that what they happen to hear on TV, or read in the news, is the whole and honest picture.

    Pandora's box has been opened. There is no putting what has escaped back into the box.

    We can't expect those who are part of the problem to fix the problem. I have difficulty with trusting the motives of a representative who has been known to publicly denounce a program (the ACA) while supporting the absurd certification that Congress is a small business and therefore eligible for tax-payer supported subsidies. It's odd that a libertarian would support the redistribution of income.

    Cognitive dissonance is now a constant state of being.
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