11

The Predictability of Chaos

Posted by khalling 8 years, 11 months ago to Science
39 comments | Share | Flag

Robin Craig writing for the Savvy Street on Chaos Theory. Enjoy

“And now chaos theory proves that unpredictability is built into our daily lives. It is as mundane as the rainstorm we cannot predict. And so the grand vision of science, hundreds of years old – the dream of total control – has died, in our century. And with it much of the justification, the rationale for science to do what it does. And for us to listen to it. Science has always said that it may not know everything now but it will know, eventually. But now we see that isn’t true. It is an idle boast. As foolish, and as misguided, as the child who jumps off a building because he believes he can fly.” (Michael Crichton, Jurassic Park).
SOURCE URL: http://www.thesavvystreet.com/the-predictability-of-chaos/


Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 11 months ago
    One has to be very careful about what one reads and hears about chaos theory. If the person doing the scholarship is doing it properly, it is not hard to show how sets of multiple (as few as two) coupled differential equations (ordinary or partial) can give rise to either multiple steady states or no steady states whatsoever. The simplest example of these are the so called predator-prey relations. It's been 25 years since I spent any time on this, but serious mathematicians can read about Lotka-Volterra equations to learn more. Scott Fogler's reactor engineering textbook has a nice treatment on chaos theory.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 11 months ago
      Any system that does not operate in the linear region is part of chaos theory. But digital electronics always tries to operate in the non-linear region of transistors.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by livefree-NH 8 years, 11 months ago
        Probably an oversimplification. I think the 'digital' part you are referring to is called a "step function", that is, turning from a 0 to a 1 instantaneously (or the other direction), and definitively non-linear. The "linear region" could be defined as a circuit transfer function which could be modeled with something like I = E/R and having no higher-order terms. A forward-biased semiconductor junction does not have a straight line in it anywhere, but changes in relation to the current flow. Being predictable and repeatable, it is not chaotic in the sense that you mean.

        Since our electronics can't instantly change from "no volts" to "some volts", it is an "analog" of that step-function behavior, hence the term (analog: "relating to or using signals or information represented by a continuously variable physical quantity such as spatial position or voltage").
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
        This is a little nitpicking on my part, but my recollection is the transistors in a logic gate operate in the linear region. Transistors in an analog amp operate in the saturation region (which is forward-active in the BJT world).
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 11 months ago
    Chaos Theory is the justification of Murphy's Law. We have been amused by Murphy in one form or another for centuries, sometimes giving it credence but more often, just something obvious to shrug your shoulders over.

    On a less serious note, I have indicated to the Gulch that when I'm questioned about my religion, I profess to worship Eris, the Greek goddess of chaos. We use the yin-yang symbol and call it the Holy Chao. I was an elaborate joke. Perhaps I should take it more seriously.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by marshafamilaroenright 8 years, 11 months ago
      I read an obit of a guy who worked with Murphy - and it explained how the Law came into being. Murphy was an engineer on some of the early testing of g-forces. It was done with very fast cars on the Nevada flats, and involved testing equipment with multiple switches.

      The car was all set up by his assistant and Murphy drove it 200+ miles an hour, coming back with bloodied eyes from the g-forces. That's when the assistant told him he'd accidentally set all the switches the wrong way.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 11 months ago
    The misuse of language to attempt to explain mathematics and science is at least fruitless endeavor and dangerous to the extreme when the intent is to tie to some other political or societal agenda or cultural ideology. Chaos Theory is a theory. It works better than some theories applied to some things and totally fails when applied to some other things. It is not a measure of value or certainty.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 11 months ago
    Interesting way to say "If one doesn't have all the data, one can't predict the outcome."

    There is nothing about Chaos Theory that demonstrates first principles do not hold. It simply tries to provide an understanding when the data to calculate from first principles is too vast or otherwise untenable.

    The assertion that Chaos Theory proves things are unknowable is as foolish as asserting the same from statistics in throwing dice.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
      It certainly was taken to extremes in the Jurassic Park. I mean the issue there is that something has to go wrong or there isn't a movie.

      What is an issue, and is not contradicted by the article, is that when systems have significant feedback effects, relatively small differences in the data at the beginning can make large differences in the results.

      Since there are practical limits to measuring all the possible inputs into something as complex as weather that means that there is probably some limitation on how far in advance we will be able to predict.

      That doesn't mean that we can't use science to predict what is going to happen. It probably means that Hari Seldon will probably not be able to use psychohistory to predict human society's actions for centuries in the future -- even without the mule.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by marshafamilaroenright 8 years, 11 months ago
    It's funny, I was talking to a young fellow who's deeply into believing the conspiracy-type theories of Alex Jones, et. al and the JFK assassination, 9/11, etc. One thing that struck me was: these theories rely on the belief that these events are highly orchestrated and orderly - and, of course, that everyone executing them can keep the secret.

    My husband, John, said: they don't take into account the amount of spontaneous chaos that occurs in most social organizations.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ Stormi 8 years, 11 months ago
      It is amazing the secrets that can be kept when evil is afoot. The Bildebergers manage to keep their goings on out of the mainstream press each year, because the owners are members. The CIA keeps all manner of secrets, including past brainwashing. How many incidents of testing on service men went unknown for years? Even know, as heh public is dumbed dow, more and more is not known as they fail to look past TV reality shows. How many people still do not know that HAARP existed? How many people still do not know what UN Agenda 21 is or how it will change all of our lives? Why was Obama's connection to Marxist theory of Saul Alinsky never spoken of during the primary elections? The public is is easily distracted, apathetic, and do not take the time to research what happens in front of them. JFK crossed the Federal Reserve, of course many people have no idea it is not part of government, so, there you go.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by marshafamilaroenright 8 years, 11 months ago
        The media are hugely biased, not consistent, or always competent. You're right: not everything gets reported, and/or not right away. Someone has to find out something and decide that it's worth pursuing.

        But somehow you know about the Bilderbergers, and UN Agenda 21 - and wasn't JFK supposed to have crossed the Mafia too?

        I'm not saying there no groups pushing their own agendas and using the hand of the govt to do that. I'm saying it's really hard to keep that stuff truly secret and to keep everyone in the group in line towards one goal. That's not how most organizations work. Information gets out; people become disenchanted and tattle.

        Humans want to make sense out of the chaos of social action and they'll find patterns everywhere; that's why we see faces in clouds. These theories fall prey to confirmation bias.

        Besides, are these nefarious govt actors you're referring to somehow hugely more competent than the boobs that run our govt every day?
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ Stormi 8 years, 11 months ago
          There will always be people looking to get past the fog, but the sheep masses, filled with talking points and distractions (created chaos) if you will, remain unwilling to search for truth and reason. They are happy to remain in the dark. The boobs are the most dangerous as they let the nefarious ones run the show from the shadows. Obama is having strings pulled, he is not that bright on his own to destroy our economy. However, with those of the the ilk of Valerie Jarrett or Soros, he knows how and when to create chaotic distractions while the media ignores what really matters. I worked in print news, and I know that what mattered did not make print, it was about greased palms and power controlling what was printed. The masses believe what they see in the news, even when it might have involved illegal actions to reach the glowing results they are told were agreed upon. The Delphi Technique is in use from local to national, and it does a fine job of brainwashing. The NGOs are very organized and create chaos to promote Agenda 21, while the bankers in Basil II met and set the masses up - but how many of the masses read about it, they were involved in created chaos about whatever the Oval Office wanted or Congress, which is little different when ti comes to wanting one worlk government.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by UncommonSense 8 years, 11 months ago
            Well said! Imo, very accurate. You're right, most people don't get it and when you try to explain to them the why, who & how, it becomes too much for them to handle and then they shut down. What else can you do?
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 11 months ago
    Interesting article on how people who are not scientists always use science incorrectly to show the limits on reason and science.

    Unfortunately,some of these people are even scientists (Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics) and it also shows how many people have fallen for Karl Popper's nonsense.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Owlsrayne 8 years, 11 months ago
    If you live in Arizona you'll know what chaos is. We have a saying out here "Wait five minutes the weather will change." "This is the Wild ,Wild West." "With each change in elevation their is a change in the weather(also the temperature)" So, this is the State of Chaos.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by walkabout 8 years, 11 months ago
    Once again I fear the hyjacking of language rears it's ugly head. "Chaos" implies lack of control and unpredictability. The theory with that name just notes it matters were the variable(s) are at when you start noticing. Imprecise prediction is not the same as unpredictable (chaotic if you will). It is an unfortunate name.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Watcher55 8 years, 11 months ago
      I suspect "marketing" played a role in the naming of chaos theory, yes: much like "catastrophe theory" which was popular before it. But it isn't entirely misleading. Think of it as an attempt to find patterns in or from apparent chaos.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by walkabout 8 years, 11 months ago
        All science is about attempting to find patterns (this is related to that in this way). I guess first we have to say, "Ok, there is no 'chaos'" everything is lawful in the universe. We just don't understand all the relationships and subtleties in those complex and interactive relationships/laws. Just because we can't figure out the laws in a timely enough manner to be useful does not indicate the laws are not there.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by Watcher55 8 years, 11 months ago
          I think there is more to it than that. We can understand the relationships and subtleties and still have a "chaotic" (in the physics sense of unpredictable) system simply because outcomes are too sensitive to initial conditions and/or slight variations. I don't think "chaos theory" assumes the laws are not there.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by walkabout 8 years, 11 months ago
            I think you're right. The point is the word "chaos" has implications. "Chaos Theory" likely has very specific limitations as to what the theorists are talking about. As with most things it is not what you don't know that gets you in trouble, it is what you do know, that just ain't so. If they would hang their hat on "initial conditions" it would be less confusing to the general, I'll only read the headline type of public. Every theory has presuppositions. If you accept those, then the end product makes sense. Even in the (ostensibly) hardest of hard sciences, physics, you have to have certain pre-existing beliefs. Physicist seem to struggle a lot with the inability to bring the micro and the macro together with few if any ever saying, "maybe back here in the beginning, we got something wrong."
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 11 months ago
    Please someone show me how chaos theory any more than inert. at equilibrium, time reversible, determinist classical mechanics applies to dissipative, indeterminate, time irreversible, far from equilibrium, living systems. The opposite of chaos is DNA, The most stable macro molecule in biology. The reason there are fluids in cells is not chaos but diffusion according to good old Newton. Don't drag interesting but irrelevant physics into life. It exists to get rid of the irrelevant and inefficient.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 11 months ago
      For biological systems, chaos theory has limited scope and application. More relevant is “complexity theory”, a successor to chaos theory that encompasses aspects of life that are not fully addressed by classical mechanics or chaos theory. These include dynamic structure, self-organization, nonlinearity and emergent behavior. Many of these attributes also apply to political systems – see https://complexityandliberty.wordpress.c...
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo