American Cops Just Killed More People in March than the UK Did in the Entire 20th Century

Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 7 months ago to Government
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I'd decided to not post every Police killing this last month. I'll just do monthly rates now.

One of my earlier posts on the subject showed that police during the first part of the year were killing Americans at a rate of 3 per day, but during March, they out did themselves again. They're now up to nearly 4 per day.
This travesty has to stop. Arrest us, give us our trials--we don't deserve the Police State's Death Penalty.

"Just last month, in the 31 days of March, police in the United States killed more people than the UK did in the entire 20th century. In fact, it was twice as many; police in the UK only killed 52 people during that 100 year period.

According to the report by ThinkProgess, in March alone, 111 people died during police encounters — 36 more than the previous month. As in the past, numerous incidents were spurred by violent threats from suspects, and two officers were shot in Ferguson during a peaceful protest. However, the deaths follow a national pattern: suspects were mostly people of color, mentally ill, or both.

This high number in March increased the average for police killings from every 8.5 hours, to nearly 1 police killing every 6.5 hours in the US."
SOURCE URL: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/american-cops-killed-people-month-march-uk-entire-20th-century/


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  • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 6 months ago
    Simple, undeniable facts: the safest cities/areas in the country are where citizens legally carry guns; the most dangerous one are where citizens are prohibited to legally carry guns. Should be obvious to a common idiot that more legally carrying citizens is good; less legally carrying citizens is bad. But we have special idiots, to whom this is not obvious.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
      True as far as it goes. But your gun does you no good against a cop and may give him an excuse to shoot you, claiming that he feared for his life. I only know of two cases, one in Ill. or Ind. last year in which their state supreme court made a ruling that the citizen was allowed to protect himself against a cop acting illegally and one in Tx. in which a citizen in a SWAT raid on the wrong house that shot a cop (while separated by just a few months, another was charged with murder of a cop).
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      • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 6 months ago
        A gun is a great equalizer. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, it makes a civil and polite society. Having a gun is not a license to kill anyone that you don't like, but having a gun also makes defense and retaliation possible, so the little despots that currently wear the uniform and derive their power from the gun will instantly know that even if their department protects and covers up their abuses, nothing can protect them that one time that they've crossed the line too far. That's all that is needed to keep a bully civilized.
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 9 years, 6 months ago
    I only checked the first two news reports so far. The second killing listed had this text "Jefferson County Sheriff Blair Olsen said Tuesday the man was Tyrell J. Larsen, 31, of Jefferson County.

    According to court records, Larsen was a convicted felon with drug, weapons, traffic, and hunting violations..."
    This fellow drew a .22 rifle on the deputy after he crashed his truck. How many of the incidents were initiated by the deceased? I'll try to check my way through the 111 and report my findings.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
    I have a couple of problems with this. One is ANY study down by ThinkProgress and I just don't buy the numbers. when did we even get professional police? I do not doubt that there is a major problem with how the police have militarized.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      You can check the numbers @ http://killedbypolice.net which lists sources of death report in some detail. There are other on-line statistics being tracked, but I like this one for the detail and source info the list.

      Professional policing started in the US shortly after the time of Peele in London that originated what is known in policing as the Pellian Principles of law enforcement sometime in the 1820's-1830's.

      The numbers for the UK, China, etc, I wouldn't advocate, but the ones for the US appear to pretty certain.
      Edit: spelling
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  • Posted by RonC 9 years, 6 months ago
    So, are the Cops out of control serial killers in mass or are the areas they patrol and stops they make so unruly, dangerous, resistant to arrest the Police approach each contact with one hand on a gun?

    If we take guns away from our Cops, like Bobbies, how will that tame the south and west sides of Chicago? If we prosecute and civilly sue them until they are intimidated into a no shoot policy, how will the bad guys respond? What if Police just decide not to patrol the bad parts of town? Problem solved! No police shootings, no Police in danger, and no legal consequences in the toughest parts of town.

    Another stat that if find interesting is the number of Americans killed in Chicago, a gun free safe zone, during and compared to the Iraq war.

    As horrendous as war is, it was safer to be there than many places back home.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 6 months ago
    Forgive me for pointing a few things out that make that statistic the biggest bunch of BS I have ever seen in my life next to Global Warming.
    1) FACT: UK = 64.1 million
    1a) FACT: Cops in UK do not carry guns so DUH...
    2) FACT: USA = 318.9 million
    Aside from the FACT there are 4.9 times as many people here makes that statistic even more blatently worthless.
    Next if you look at 5 US Cities, Chicago, Washington D.C., New York, Los Angeles and Detrtoi and remove their statistics the USA is the safest place in the worled for EVERONE of every race.
    The ironic part is these massively dangerous cities have the toughest Gun Control laws in this country.
    WHY...BECAUSE CRIMINALS IGNORE THE LAWS!!!!
    These gun control laws are ONLY FOLLOWED BY THE PEOPLE WHO YOU DO NOT NEED TO WORRY ABOUT INT HE FIRST PLACE!!!!
    Next time you burt out useless statistics like this put some REAL context into it. Compare apples to apples.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
      I don't care if this country has 1 billion people. The fact is that since 1/1/2015 through the end of March, cops in this country have shot and killed in excess of 350 citizens, (and that doesn't count how many they shot at and missed, or how many they wounded. Their history is some 35% of shot at killed). Some armed, some unarmed, some justified, some not. The statistic part of that, that you're glibly skipping over is that in this country, we're guaranteed due process of law, not execution by cop.

      This report has exactly nothing to do with gun control, unless you want to talk about getting the guns of cops under control.
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      • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 6 months ago
        Careful your liberal underwear is showing.

        Of all the police shootings that resulted in death of a perp, there are remarkably FEW that were not justified.

        But hey if you don't like cops, just send them a message saying please never respond to me when I call for help, Protect yourself, and take the perp to court and sue them then.

        BJS did the math and – well maybe I should turn it over to them again:

        In the aggregate, the two programs collected very similar counts between 2003 and 2005. A total of 1,095 law enforcement homicides were reported to DCRP, and 1,082 justifiable homicides by police were reported to SHR That is 1.6% error rate. You cannot even get your Burger at McDonalds correct 98.4% of the time. That is an AWESOME number of RIGHT choices, made under fire and in a split second of time.

        Nice that YOU can armchair quarterback in hind sight every shooting out there, and say how horrible they are. Maybe you need to go out become a cop THEN tell us all about it.

        You want to whine about 350 citizens killed, based on the stats only 5.6 were errors and unjustified. You want to REALLY complain about something, why don't you go out and rail against the thousands killed by drunk kids EVERY YEAR because their parents were too STUPID and IGNORANT to teach their kids responsibility.

        Go find an issue that is REALLY significant and stop haranguing about cops who all things considered to an OUTSTANDING job day in and day out, risking their lives every minute of the day for less pay than you would probably ever consider working for, and for people like you who do nothing but complain about the job they do.

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        • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
          No problem. I have no need to call a cop for protection or help. By the time he got there it would all be over.

          You're correct that there are 'remarkably' few that are not justified. But in the last few years, as we see with yesterday's news and video release (taken by a bystander) of the N. Carolina cop shooting, that without the help of a bystander's video that the cop that claimed that he feared for his life and in all probability would have gotten away with it.

          What drunk drivers have to do with this post is way beyond me. Please stick to the issues of the post. That is police killing citizens rather than ensuring that they receive Due Process.

          As to cops day in and day out risk to their lives--they don't even rate in the top ten jobs in this country for hazards.

          Check your premises. This is strike two.
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          • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 6 months ago
            When you can pull someone over to give them a routine traffic warning and get your brains blown out any given day. Your at risk.
            When you have people like the ones in Ferguson who target cops for no reason, and just shoot them your at risk, My premise is not wrong at all, or the ones in New York. My premise is not wrong. Not strike two.

            How much risk is your job? I know my biggest daily risk is stubbing my toe walking to my home office from my kitchen with a cup of coffee.

            My point with the drunk driving kids is simple. Please pick a REAL issue. Your railing against cops is really unwarranted.

            Yes the NC cop was most certainly wrong, and that would have been proven without the bystanders video. I am also willing to bet there is a LOT more to this storey than a simple random shooting by ONE crazy cop.
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        • -3
          Posted by blackswan 9 years, 6 months ago
          If we're going to talk about "black lives matter (or anyone else's, for that matter)," just consider that, since Roe v. Wade, about 25 MILLION blacks have been killed by the abortion mills, out of something like 55 million in total. That means that there should be at least 65 million blacks in the US, not a mere 40 million. Over the past 40 or so years, that comes to about 600,000 per year, or 50,000 per MONTH. Think over 1,500 per DAY. So, the cops killed 300 or so people in a month, most of whom were engaged in something unsavory, while we're ignoring a really serious stat. If we were to engage in doing some quality improvement, using a Pareto chart, police misconduct dwindles into insignificance compared to abortion, disease, and other causes of death. Why not fix the important stuff, before attempting to fix the insignificant?
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          • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 6 months ago
            No problem. The decision to have an abortion was made by the woman who was pregnant. She exercised her free will to make that decision; just like white women, latinas, asian women, and all other women who had abortions did.

            Jan
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          • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
            That comment is irrelevant to this post. I follow Eudamania's three strike procedure on my posts. While I welcome comments that agree or disagree with the issue being discussed, I find unrelated comments to be inexcusable invasions of a posters time to respond to and counter to the principles of a rational mind and logical reasoning.

            If you have comments relative to the subject of the post, please add them. If you wish to discuss the topic of abortion, please make your own post.

            Strike 1.
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    • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 6 months ago
      Wasn't it the nineteenth century UK Prime Minister, Gladstone, who was quoted as saying, "There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics!"? Your points are well made, especially about the big city violence.

      That being said, I hope more police are paying attention to the concerns of citizens about some departments being too ready to storm into nearly every situation in full riot gear, guns blazing. Engaging citizens in dialogue helps to keep the level of violence down, and the trust in law enforcement up.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
        A fair comment, but by concentrating on the comparison with other countries, I think people are missing the import of this report.

        The latest numbers I've read indicate that police in street shootings with citizens, miss some 60% of their shots and of those they hit, they only kill some 30-35% of the time. So here we have a known number (⩰ 350 since 1/1/2015. The records of death I refer to are @ http://killedbypolice.net) of citizens killed, some armed, some unarmed, some justified, some not.

        That, by historical records would indicate that they've shot at and hit 1,000 citizens since 1/1/2015 and have shot at and missed 1,667. Nobody tracks those numbers missed and just wounded, except some police organizations and one Phd at Univ of Mo. Admittedly, a 3 month period is insufficient for accurate measures, but still indicate a horrific situation.
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      • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 6 months ago
        Unfortunately as the criminals become more violent because the times we live in, law enforcement really has no choice if they want to survive the day and go home to their wives and kids, after collecting their pitifully low salaries.

        I saw a sign a black man was holding. "Mothers should not have to worry about their kids being shot while robbing a store." "Black Lives Matter."

        THAT mentality is where the real problem lies. Fix that and you fix the rest.

        I can see it now. Guy robbing store exits after shooting the owner, Cop rolls up in his car, strolls up to the criminal, no gun drawn and says, "I am sorry you feel you have to rob this store, how about we have a talk about this. We need to reason out your actions and how this will affect you and your family."

        Sorry if I were a cop, and a perp exits a store with a gun, I would already have a bead on his forehead. Order him to stop and drop to the ground and any hesitation on the pat of the perp my .45 would stop him and drop him to the ground.

        You want to negotiate with thugs and criminals there is an AWESOME movie that should be the first training video negotiators see.

        The PROPER way to negotiate with terrorists, and criminals.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oKwg6W0...
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        • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 6 months ago
          There is a difference between appropriate use of force, including blowing the jerk away when necessary, and bringing in the SWAT and armored vehicles to arrest a non-violent party. The big mistake was when police departments stopped patrolling with two per car. One cop alone is under greater stress, and the thugs can often outgun or outnumber him.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
          And I would suggest that you watch a video released yesterday of the N. Caroline cop, fearing for his life, shooting a man running away from him 8 times in the back, then is seen going back to recover an item from near his position shooting, carrying it back to the body and dropping it there.

          Thank goodness the idiot cop was just charged with murder and is in jail under no bail and probably in protective isolation. I would much prefer to see him in general population justifying his action to others than getting special treatment from his brothers.
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 6 months ago
            Hello Zenphamy,
            I saw that video too. I can't imagine any preceding events that could mitigate that killing. So far it looks like an atrocity to me. Murder.
            Regards,
            O.A.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
              He was pulled over for a broken tail light and apparently had a warrant for failure to pay child support. The witness that made the video said that the cop had already tasered him once and the guy was running from the taser.

              None of that sounds like death sentence type crimes to me. There's just too many of these.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 6 months ago
    How many "felons" are felons because of being convicted of victimless crimes? The stats I have seen is that over 50% of the prison population is related to drugs, not the felonies we tend to think of such as murder or robbery. Which means, having suffered injustice, how many will flee when seeing a cop, let alone being stopped by one for a "tail light violation."
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  • Posted by mccwho 9 years, 6 months ago
    Not meaning to belittle any potential problem. But 111 that's more than the "assault rifle" killed. Humm police are more dangerous than assault riffles.

    Ahmmm, Ban Police ?????

    I don't see Pelosi and Feinstein yelling how scary the police are
    .
    For that fact more people were killed by blunt objects then either one of these causes. Over zealousness can cause far more problems, especially when facts are distorted, or bent to fit a specific objective.

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  • Posted by Crushmore 9 years, 7 months ago
    These are terrible statistics no doubt that make our police look terrible. However, how many victims were resisting arrest or not cooperating? I am not saying that that justifies their deaths at the hands of police but that is usually the first step in events that spiral out of control.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 6 months ago
      The first step is cops deciding how they will react to other people. If they decide they're going to shoot people for running away, or for responding with a weapon when their house is broken into, then no wrong can be done to them.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      So do you believe that more than 350 deaths since 1/1/15, which doesn't count those simply wounded or shot at and missed, were the results of armed resistance. To imply that someone, which includes the mentally impaired, deserves death for 'not cooperating' seems a stretch too far. Our soldiers and Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan couldn't get away with that.
      You might want to review the records that are available prior to implying such. These are not made up numbers. These are Americans where the Bill of Rights guarantees a Due Process.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 6 months ago
        Due Process involves both sides. One has to willingly submit to the law of the land until one can have their day in court.

        I am not going to fault the officers for those who violently resist arrest - aka Ferguson, Missouri.
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      • Posted by Crushmore 9 years, 6 months ago
        I never said deserves. No one deserves to die in hands of police. Are you implying the police are starting their days off by saying, " I am going have to shoot somebody today, because I want to." I was stating that failure to follow police instruction could lead to such events. You have the moral high ground here. I guess I am just defending a bunch of murderers.
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        • Posted by xthinker88 9 years, 6 months ago
          Actually some people do deserve to die at the hands of police. If you pull a gun and point it at a police officer, and you are killed, you got what you deserved.

          That's true of any citizen. If you pull a gun and point it at me, you deserve what you get.
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  • Posted by smichael9 9 years, 6 months ago
    At what point does a police force become more than a "serve and protect" component of a local community? It seems to me that as police armament begins to include military type firepower, armored vehicles, sophisticated crowd control devices and tactical teams, something has dramatically changed. It's almost as if the police force is being placed in the position of protecting a community from its citizenry, not for its citizens. Why do protective agencies (police, homeland security, TSA, etc) need to stockpile billions of rounds of ammunition? I like to take my guns to the range several times each year but have found it difficult to find ammunition and when available more expensive due to the scarcity of supply.

    I'm no proponent of conspiracy theories but the societal changes over the past decade have begun to mirror "Atlas Shrugged" in so many ways that I have begun to have fear for my children and grandchildren. What kind of world are we leaving them? There was a time when each generation could feel that their children would be better off than they were. i worry that this is no longer the case.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 6 months ago
    320 plus million with 12 plus million illegals and unk number of legals which seem to be included in the 320 million figure at any one time so 330 million best I can figure it divided by `111 times x 12 = one per every quarter million people. National average for police killed is 150 each year.

    I would have given the post more credence if the word murder had been used or the number of incidents broken down by types of incidents,

    As us the figures are too loosely defined to be of much use. Something like the children killed by guns statistics which decline to state how many in incidents between criminals or the age of children which counts all up to 21 years of age.

    No substance no meaning.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
      You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. But mine is that we have more Americans killed by cops, than have been killed during the same time frame in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 6 months ago
        Ah yes now I understand. But the amount of citizens killed in the current wars has two other lessons. It's very very small compared to the 60's and 70's or the early 50's or earlier. A comparison that way is a positive for not using the draft system. However the over riding system is the number killed in wars started with a Republican in the White House and a Democrat. The ratio is 18:1 Eighteen under a Democrat to 1 under a Republican since the end of World War II. I use one parameter. It doesn't matter who took over. It was started by...therefore they get the credit or the debit. That is the only real difference between the two parties other than socialist statist and socialist corporatist and the only difference of significant interest especially if you are in the infantry.

        As for the rest of it the differences are between what they say with little difference if any between what they do. Ergo Sum. The two make up the Government Party and work in concert with each other to remain in power.

        To change your local police problem use the recall. If you don't have the recall you are a slave state.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
          You can't recall a cop and in most cases, can't prosecute him. I had direct involvement during the late 60's. I fail to see a relevance to the topic of this post.
          Strike 1.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 6 months ago
            start with the constitution. thand hand book for citizens. you recall the elected officials that gave the offender the badge and failed to do their job Civis 101. There is always a way or at least used to be. Before the couch potatoes let the police state take over. Now I'm not so sure the option of citizen responsibility is available at any level. This is discouraging. X + Y = Z ero must be more than three generations. We just had an eight year old give us more hope. You don't have initiative? That's another citizen procedure except in the slave states.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
              Yes, the cop swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution and we pay him to do that and give him a better retirement than we ourselves get. I'm just not that sure that citizen responsibility is an answer.
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 6 months ago
                If not citizen responsibility then whose responsibility? Are you saying you aren't sure that citizens are responsible or unsure enough to not support the notion that citizens should have responsibility. As you'll read in one of the other posted threads neither am I. Since most of you let the Constitution and Bill of Rights get trashed by the Patriot Act. I tend to agree that the majority are not responsible so on that issue I stand with you shoulder to shoulder and I am not unsure. Which brings us back to whats left of recall and initiative or learning to salute and say We serve the party." Of that I am very sure.l
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                • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
                  An Objectivist is absolutely responsible for their own choices and actions, and proudly so. But I reject the idea of assigning responsibility to citizens in general to straighten out this problem. I think it's definitely our responsibility to let the world know that we've had enough. But we've been past the point of being able to actually do anything to change the course of this country since 1913, until enough of us are ready to stand up and say a resounding NO.

                  Any person working for the government in any position has one and only one over-riding responsibility, and that is to protect the natural, individual rights of every citizen they encounter.

                  I learned to salute way too many years ago, and I'll be damned if I'll ever salute again much less 'serve the party'.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 6 months ago
              My apologies for ranting. But I'm not going to withdraw anything. I still don't see the point of the whole threadl. Perhaps you could restate it in one sentence?

              Usually when police misconduct is involved there is much more than killed which is not by definition necessarily a bad thing. As opposed to murder - except for those who mis state the Ten Commandments.
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              • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
                I fail to see what misstating the Ten Commandments has to do with anything.
                strike 2
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 6 months ago
                  Obviously. It's thou shall not commit murder not thou shall not kill.
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
                    I don't care much for Bible commandments from some mystical superbeing from some unidentifiable dimension. I've had to kill to protect myself and I have no problem if I have to do it again.
                    Stike 3
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
                    Sorry, if I mis-read that.
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                    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 6 months ago
                      Nothing wrong with that but much of human history is based on writings in the various good books of the various religions.







































                      nothing wrong with that attitude as long as you match it to the context of the times and who or whom is doing the interpreting.

                      The Bible and other good books of other religions are always a good source of background to explain how things came to be. Another example is 'afraid of the dark syndrome.'
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  • Posted by jchristyatty 9 years, 6 months ago
    Without really digging into the facts surrounding each shooting, I don't know what conclusions to draw form this article. Considering the source...ThinkProgress....I am immediately skeptical. The article does also point out "As in the past, numerous incidents were spurred by violent threats from suspects, and two officers were shot in Ferguson during a peaceful protest". So, do I conclude that this country has more home grown violent criminals?....or are the cops wanton vigilantes going around killing people just for the fun of it? The latter being I believe what the author wants you to believe. Maybe we just live in a society of warped individuals who think the system and the man have done them wrong (wonder where they might have gotten that idea from) and they have a "right" to commit violent criminal acts....hell, the cops are all bad racists, pigs anyway...right?
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 6 months ago
      I too am skeptical of "ThinkProgress" because they are lefties. But their main mistake is to assume that only (or mainly) blacks are the targets of unjust police actions. I'm sure for a long time that was true. But with militarization has come a new set of ROE that means the gloves have come off for everybody.

      It's high time the marketplace started forming protection agencies willing and able to stop the police. We're going to need them soon. In some places we already do.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
        I agree. You can find the same article on several other info sources than 'Think Progress'. It just happens to be the first one I ran into. This is not about blacks and racism, other than the fact that it seems that blacks seem to draw a lot more street contact with cops than whites. But there are a significant number of whites in the numbers.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
      Please check records maintained for this year @ http://killedbypolice.net.

      Also I refer you to the news of yesterday of the N. Carolina cop just charged with murder because of a bystanders video. Until that video was released, the cop claimed that he feared for his life and the video shows the unarmed suspect running away and being shot in the back 8 times from many feet away and the cop planting evidence in an attempt to back up his false claim.
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  • Posted by NealS 9 years, 6 months ago
    My second response, and probably not one that will go over very well. Oh, WTH, here goes, "Is that enough?" Should we be shooting more? Nah, I'm not going to send this, even here at the Gulch I might be banned. Please disregard this post, it was just a passing thought.

    Would shooting more perhaps result in less opportunity, less confrontation, less crime? Never mind, let's not go there? Why are there so few shootings in North Korea?
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 6 months ago
    Where are the UK figures? England had zero police with weapons for some of and only special units for most of the last 100 plus years. Neither did their citizens. Apple and bedposts. In both countries the police have formed military style units. Happens when the public allows the bad guys to arm themselves any which way but keeps the police and military equipped with ecologically friendly and non-lethal weapons.I hear no outcry against the true government of South Central and it's home grown militia commonly referred to as Crips and Bloods nor the race oriented gangs of East Los Angeles.

    Nor did I hear much comment when Jackboot Janet Von Flamethrower Reno turned a simple arrest into a case of mass child murder. Beyond that their claim of automatic weapons does not agree with the commonly published photos. Most of which were semi-automatic.

    Where was citizen responsibility when the bullies of Columbine were getting away with assault and battery?

    Or Springfield Oregon

    Or......
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  • Posted by JeffG 9 years, 6 months ago
    1. How many years of the 20th century did UK cops even have guns?
    2. USA has 6x the population.
    3. Maybe we should punish criminals rather than coddle them so they wouldn't be motivated to commit crime.
    4. Propaganda titles like this on are needed for incorrect arguments.
    PS - Arm the American people like the Swiss and the problem will solve itself!
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    • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
      I don't know when Bobbies started being armed. As to punish criminals, the US has more of it's citizens per capita and total in prison than any other nation on earth and is one of the very few that still practices the death penalty, all while the crime rate in every category has been steadily declining since sometime in the 90's.
      I'm not sure I get your item #4.
      For your PS, arming yourself against a cop is sure to get you killed.
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  • Posted by waytodude 9 years, 6 months ago
    It seems to me the criminal element are getting more brazen for the simple fact that they see on TV that when they are caught commenting a crime they don't have to have respect for the law enforcement and if in doing so are hurt in any way the police are to blame. We are coming to a point where police cannot do their job. Before this happens I am obtaining my conceal carry permit.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 6 months ago
    You want to see some meaningful statistics and numbers that ARE fact, and not intended to fit a specific narrative whereby an entire career path is smeared with no REAL just cause? I took some time to compile this data, and tell a true storey.

    I really wish I saved the video I made. I might have to do it again.
    I had read some liberal media dribble about how dangerous guns were.
    I have a nice custom Saiga 12, semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun with a 20 round drum. I loaded it, and placed it on my porch at 11:30 am one day.
    I then proceeded to call it names, throw garbage at it, and really get nasty with my insults.
    Then about 12:30 the mail person delivered the mail, and at 3:45pm the bus load of kids came buy.
    To my complete surprise and amazement, that shotgun did not shoot anyone, not even me for being a real jerk to it.
    Based on the liberal media there should have been a blood-bath on my street because after all guns are dangerous and a fully loaded shotgun with 20 rounds would be a real menace to society if left alone.
    But nothing happened. Go figure, maybe guns are not really dangerous at all.

    I posted some interesting statistics gathered by the FBI, and to my amazement, death by any and all guns barely broke the list of how people in this country die in totals.

    But the TOTAL murder by ALL types of firearms in 2011 was 8,583.
    The Total death by all other types of weapons, WAS 5,668

    The biggest surprise was that death by guns, the MAJORITY were self-inflicted.
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...
    http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail...


    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61...

    •Number of deaths: 2,596,993
    •Death rate: 821.5 deaths per 100,000 population
    •Life expectancy: 78.8 years
    •Infant Mortality rate: 5.96 deaths per 1,000 live births

    Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
    •Heart disease: 611,105
    •Cancer: 584,881
    •Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
    •Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
    •Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978
    •Alzheimer's disease: 84,767
    •Diabetes: 75,578
    •Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
    •Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
    •Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149





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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 6 months ago
    You are so out of context. You don't know the circumstances. One has to assume the killings are justified until proven otherwise. It is the job of police to respond in accord to the actions against them.
    Look at Ferguson: totally justified, but to this day people are threatening the cop.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
      I'm sorry, I don't see it that way. An Objectivist principle is force is only justifiable in proportion to the self defense required and is not to be initiated. As long as police believe that their job is to demand with threat of death, that citizens comply, we're in danger. We've had more Americans killed during the same time frame, by police than in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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      • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 6 months ago
        You missed my point. Who said the force was out of proportion? All that was stated is that 3-4 people were kiilled a day and it had to stop.
        Re Iraq and Afgh, that is naive; there, the "police" is a much broader term...many more people are kiilled without any reason.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
          You missed my point. Re Iraq and Afghanistan. It's not naive. I'm not discussing how many Iraq and Afghanistan people were killed by their police. I was talking about how many Americans fighting in the war in those countries were killed in combat and related activities compared to how many Americans that were killed by American police during the same time periods. Check it out. I think you might be amazed.
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          • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 6 months ago
            That's irrelevant. That's like me comparing those when are troops were getting slaghtered in Iraq. If killing are justified in the US, then the count is irrelevant. You haven't shown general "overkill."
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            • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
              More citizens killed by cops on American streets than killed in a 14 year war (the slaughter in Iraq you refer to)? That doesn't indicate a little 'overkill' to you? What would it take--your own kid getting killed by a scared, over militarized cop.
              I might suggest that you are no Objectivist and fail to understand the rationale of non-initiatory force. These killings were not running gun battles, (a significant number were un-armed) with roving banditos and don't include the guy choked to death for selling 'loosies' or the 96 year old man killed with a taser.
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              • Posted by kevinw 9 years, 6 months ago
                A few points here; I don't believe there is any "proportion to the self defense required" principal in Objectivism. A threat is a threat and the one being threatened has the right to protect himself by whatever means available. A threat being a decision by one that the life or the product of the life of another is at the disposal of the one, thereby forfeiting his own life.
                Another, the use of statistics with total disregard for context is a scare tactic used to influence emotion in place of proper judgment and is easily seen through, especially by people on this site.
                All that said, I once attempted to join the police force about 25 years ago. I didn't make it and I was under the impression, by the questions on the application and in the interview and in the general attitude that they were looking for people who were willing to enforce the law as it is written and not as it would be right. To follow orders and never question them. My respect for the police has never been the same and I always have that "big brother is watching you" feeling any time the police are around.
                The point being that the problem is not the position of power that we put these people in, the problem is the power that we give to that position.
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              • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 6 months ago
                I am very much an Obj., thank you.
                You continue to make the assumption that cops generally kill without sufficient cause; I am not willing to make that assumption. As has been noted here, most killings are in big cities where racial tension and aggression against cops is the greatest and - in some cases - where gun control has been imposed.
                Obviously, we can both be concerned about those cases where cops are out of line.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
                  And we should be, but 111 people/mo is extreme, IMHO. I don't make assumptions about this situation. The legal basis in this country began as, 'Rather 10 guilty go free than one innocent man be punished'. Have we really changed that much? I'm unwilling to give that presumption up.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 6 months ago
    http://www.greenprophet.com/2010/07/air-...
    Why 27 People A Day Die From Air Pollution in Tehran
    Population of Tehran 7.8 million

    Death rate USA as a percentage of population by cop per day. 3/318900000 = .0000000009
    Death rate to polution Tehran per day by beathing = 27/7800000 = .0000006
    Looks like living in Tehran just bereathing is VERY dangerous.

    FBI stats on how people die in the USA is very interesting. More people die by hammers than die by cops every year in the USA.
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  • Posted by NealS 9 years, 6 months ago
    How many is this per hundred thousand people? Is this a race thing or just a police against people thing? What is the real problem? How many people and/or criminals are killed by civilians and/or criminals with guns? Why is that? Does anyone think the increase in civilians with carry permits will result in more people getting shot now? Why have more people legally armed themselves? What can an individual do to protect themselves from being shot? How should one defend themselves against someone hell bent on killing them because they won't give up their wallet or purse? When should criminals be shot, or should we wait until they actually permanently injure or kill someone of innocence before we shoot? How many shootings involve a cop and a non-criminal? How do all these numbers compare to other countries? Why do I not like to sit with my back to a door or a cash register?

    Do police get up in the morning and tell themselves they are going to shoot or kill someone today? I think it's a pretty thankless job anymore, especially when we don't even enforce our laws today. Bad cops (South Carolina yesterday) need to go of course, but I would guess the number of bad cops are much smaller than the number of bad people in most other occupations.

    Why do we make it more difficult for police to do what we pay them to do? One reason is because we allow false premises like, "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" to spread around the country. That liar thug that started that has not been punished, and it was allowed to spread, actually, around the world.

    If white/blacks/Chinese are the predominate race in a given city then I would hope they would elect people that would hire people similar to them that understand their idiosyncrasies, but ultimately still up hold the law. After all isn't it still the majority that rules? Or is it?
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 6 months ago
    What's the cause: Aggressive training, a militaristic culture among police, officers patrolling from cars instead of on foot? This seems like such a pronounced problem that there must be hard data on why it's happening.
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    • Posted by kevinw 9 years, 6 months ago
      How about too many laws that pit "us against them". You can't get through a normal day without breaking a law somewhere so you're constantly looking over your shoulder not even knowing why so the tension constantly escalates. Even law abiding citizens are on edge during any contact with police turning daily activity for police into constant stressful situations. We learn to be fearful of each other and sometimes hate each other and that becomes the new normal.
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    • Posted by $ Terraformer_One 9 years, 6 months ago
      The most powerful gang on a city's streets are claiming their territory.

      The fact that not all of the bad cops are dealt with according to the law has normalised this widespread disrespect of the law, not helped by the volume of laws/statutes/acts constantly being churned out by every layer of government.

      The police have become customers of military hardware suppliers because they cannot continue to pay dividends to the shareholders otherwise.

      Edit: the military hardware suppliers paying dividends to their shareholders.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 6 months ago
        "normalised this widespread disrespect of the law, not helped by the volume of laws/statutes/acts constantly being churned out by every layer of government."
        Yes. Exactly.
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        • Posted by kevinw 9 years, 6 months ago
          That is the root of the problem, is it not? What reasonable society would let it's police force be outgunned by the criminals? And yet more and more people are added to that list of criminals every day with more and more laws and that means the cops need more and more weapons and aggressive training and the wedge is driven deeper and deeper, Attitudes change on both sides as we all learn to hate each other. Tensions raise, confrontations become harsher and guess what? We need more laws.
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          • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 6 months ago
            The US only got to be as free as it was at the Founding because ordinary people had the army outgunned, much less the police. If we are to be free again, that will have to become true again. Which means we either need to stop police getting this hardware, or get more of it ourselves than they do.
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            • Posted by kevinw 9 years, 6 months ago
              My biggest fear is that you may be right. But that would mean that our only option to regain (achieve is probably the better word) our freedom is through bloodshed. That bothers me because I will soon be too old to be worth much in any kind of battle so the sooner it happened the better and that means giving up on any other options sooner, rather than later.
              But then what? We lose, history is recorded by the winners. We win, what then? I believe it was Ayn Rand that wrote (though I haven't been able to find it again to verify) that the constitution could not have been written at any other time in history. Not prior to nor since then have all the conditions been right to accomplish what the founders did. The opportunity, the geography, but most importantly the philosophy. And that is what doesn't exist now, at least not in great enough numbers. Yet. If we had a war now, and we managed to survive, we would not even be able to rebuild what we have much less the free country that we so desire. There are just not enough people that can agree upon how it should be rebuilt.
              But I think we have another option. And we're, in a way, doing it right now. Or we should be. Discussing the ideas, educating ourselves and others in the philosopy that is the root of the freedom that I think most people want (can't say all) but so many don't understand it's cause. This is the movement that must grow in order to save the good ol USA. It's the only way. And if there were enough people with the proper philosophy to rebuild the country after a war then there wouldn't need to be a war in the first place.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago
        I'm afraid there's more than a hint of what you say. This country, even during prohibition and the bank robbers of the 30's, has never experienced anything like this.
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