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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 3 months ago
    As an OK resident, I have to caution everyone that even the "reddest" state is not entirely conservative. The GOP establishment still has a lot of pull, and is nervous about how nullification is perceived as "extremist", so don't be too disappointed if this effort falls short of actually passing.

    Unfortunately, like most Americans, drastic action won't be attempted by Oklahomans until Federal government overreach becomes almost too powerful to overcome. No one wants to believe just how amoral our government has become, and it may take a violent wake up call to jar them to sensibility.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 3 months ago
    Most of the people I know who are both concerned about, and knowledgeable about, the environment are hunters and ranchers. Most of the people I know who support a Green agenda rarely, if ever, camp or actually go out into the wilderness. Bureaucracy is self-maintaining and, like kibble, tends to expand to the cube of the space available for it. When rivers were burning we did indeed need to say, "OMG! Rivers are burning: we need to do something about this." We did not need an agency that would, in the 21st century, earn its merit badges halting construction because a garter snake was found dead on the site. We do not need to spend 9 billion a year to depress the US economy. I am relieved that someone is at least trying to put a stop to the EPA.

    Jan
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  • Posted by $ brd76 10 years, 3 months ago
    Psy-Ops is a powerful thing for those who would grab for more power over our lives. The emotional argument posed in your sardonic tone does not convince me that had the EPA not been created we would currently be in a neanderthal chaos concerning the environment. Had property rights been properly enforced through seeking damages by legal means for the atrocity there would be no need for an overarching federal environmental protection agency digging into and sniffing around everywhere they can reach in order to stop or prevent every accident or atrocity from happening. Those have happened anyway, the deterant provided by the EPA has zero effect on what will happen until it goes in to simply shut down industries that create jobs and products that people want.
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  • Posted by cp256 10 years, 3 months ago
    The looters keep arguing that rivers will be on fire and neighborhoods will be poisoned without the EPA. OK Nullification isn't about abolishing the EPA, it is about ignoring all rules not passed by congress or OK legislation. As usual the looters and rotters are running around screaming about the sky falling.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 3 months ago
    What should be noted about the EPA is that they have assumed powers they were never explicitly granted by the legislature and that the legislature (ie Congress) has the full powers to restrict the EPA if they so choose. (yeah, right.)

    One of the biggest things they could do is simply to define "navigable rivers". Right now, the EPA interprets this to mean any body of water no matter how small. The original intent was for major rivers and bodies used for commercial shipping/trading - not irrigation canals and fishing streams! Simply restricting the EPA's reach back to reasonable terms would do much - though I wouldn't count on Congress to do anything. I think that it will be up to the individual states and the nullification power to bring a halt to this.
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  • Posted by susan042462 10 years, 3 months ago
    If they can do this, it could change every thing. Then States would be able to stop any agency from coming in and just doing what ever they want. I hope it passes.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
    Okay, this is how my mind works. It'll probably be 20 years, as usual, before others make the connection...

    OK has become noted as a conservative bastion. All counties went "red" in the past two elections, we fight the progressive agenda publicly, and so on.

    Obama is setting up his 5 "promise zones"...
    http://www.ijreview.com/2014/01/107461-o...

    Is one of them in Oklahoma? No... it's in the *Choctaw Nation*.

    Now, the tribes put up advertisements on TV and elsewere promoting their tribe, particularly the Choctaw. (Going solely by their rhetoric, the Choctaw settled the west, built the nation and got us to the moon...)
    Now, one of the aspects of the Choctaw ads that set my teeth on edge is their advocacy of their collectivist culture (real or imagined).

    It's one of the prosperity zones, imo, in order to sabotage and inhibit Oklahoma's successes.
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  • Posted by Tippecanoe 10 years, 3 months ago
    Nullification is a pet idea that has never worked. It was essentially what the Confederate states tried, and we know how that came out.
    Check the link here for more info:
    Nullification, in United States constitutional history, is a legal theory that a state has the right to nullify, or invalidate, any federal law which that state has deemed unconstitutional. The theory of nullification has been rejected repeatedly by Federal courts, and it has rarely been legally upheld.[1]

    ->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullification_(U.S._Constitution)

    But there is a way to change things, and it is to amend the Constitution via State run Article V (of the Constitution) for such amendments as term limits. That is an example of an amendment that would NEVER be put forth by Congress itself, but would be key to reversing this monster.
    Indiana is leading the way here having passed State laws to restrict the actions of delegates preventing them from doing anything other than what the state intends.
    See:
    http://www.conventionofstates.com

    Also note that from what I have seen, Nullification supporters utterly fail to see that that effort will never succeed for a number of reasons. Among them is the fact that Agencies like the EPA are unelected and create laws and regulations on their own without legislative action. That means they can turn them out as fast as the presses can run. Meanwhile, state legislatures have a lot of time required to do anything, with much uncertainty as to the result. And then you have this: Only 1 state out of 50 doing anything, bound to fail. The unlikely success would be 1 of 50. Still fail.
    Regardless, the Nullification proponents hold to that idea, and are narrowly focused. That means they strongly oppose any other ideas than their own, and that includes Article V amendments.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
      No, what the Confederate States tried was to create a new nation. The same thing the original colonies tried.

      Had the South been industrialized, the outcome would have been very, very different. I find that very telling, in a Randian way.

      Only 1 State out of 50 made marijuana legal. Only 1 State out of 50 perverted the definition of marriage. Now look.
      An avalanche can begin with a single displaced pebble, and Oklahoma is not the only State looking to free themselves of slavery to the EPA and the Green religion.
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    • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 3 months ago
      I think it may be having a little more effect than you think. 20 states have now legalized medical marijuana, 2 have legalized use. States are nullifying NDAA in total or in parts, Hemp is in the process of being legalized in Kentucky and Vermont (?New Hampshire). PPACA (Obamacare) exchanges have been refused by some 30 states. N. or S. Carolina just nullified something recently. A few are nullifying Drones. Alabama Supreme Court has kept a 'Birther' case going.

      N. Carolina's nullification attempt before the civil war was not judged to be a nullification like that of Madison's and Jefferson's against the Sedition laws of Adams (?) or the nullification of the Fugitive Slave Acts by Norther states, upheld by the Supreme Court.

      The last convention of the states that we had, defied their state legislatures and wrote the Constitution. I just don't know that you can trust a state legislature or delegate to the state convention anymore than you can trust Congress today.
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      • Posted by Tippecanoe 10 years, 3 months ago
        Sure, but consider this: Those running the Fed govt right now do not care about marijuana. Or the illegals importing it. They even sold guns to the cartels (fast and furious). So they aren't going to spend much energy opposing what they themselves want.
        On the other hand, they DO want the EPA's actions. They DO want control of business, energy, environmental affairs, and such.
        And they most definitely do not want Constitutional amendments that would restrict their tyranny.
        All of these so called nullification attempts are pretty insignificant.
        One problem with them is there is no unification, and it is unlikely there will be. By that I mean unified efforts by all 50 states, or at least 3/4.
        And so.. even with that, what if the Feds still ignore it all. That would mean secession, and the same thing as the civil war.
        Back to my previous assertion. The feds will get some judge to overrule the states, They will send in the troops. They will send in the IRS and their swat teams. They have all kinds of semi-legal moves they can do to make like difficult. It will never get anywhere.
        The last convention of the states did NOT defy their legislatures. They had authority to do what they did. Nullification does not have a positive history of success.
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