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Confidence

Posted by sdesapio 9 years, 1 month ago to The Gulch: General
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There's been a bit of a ruckus in the Gulch recently regarding who should and shouldn't be here, and what they should and should not be posting.

We hear you.

And, we actually have a new tool on the way that we think is going to add a whole new level of "Confidence" to the goings-on in the Gulch. But, before we talk about that...

First, let's just summarize the recent banning of a long-time Gulch member - let's call him "MemberR."
1. MemberR was vocally anti-Rand.
2. Because MemberR was anti-Rand, MemberR's request to be a Gulch Producer was denied.
3. In retaliation, MemberR spammed the Gulch with numerous cloned comments claiming religious discrimination.
4. We banned MemberR for attacking Gulch moderators publicly via spam and false assertion.

Now, on to another troubled member, let's call him "MemberC" - who is a bit of different case.

We're going to have members with all levels of understanding. On a scale of 1 - 10, MemberC is a 1. Not a 0, a 1. He's read the books, likes them, but has yet to take the ideas to their logical conclusions.

On the road to Objectivist enlightenment, some are going to require a little help in their personal journey. MemberC is a prime example. MemberC is ignorant, inarticulate, contradictory and groping. MemberC is the "doesn't get it" poster boy. But, he is not anti-Rand. He's just stuck in a fog that has not yet been lifted.

We're either going to kick him to the curb, essentially saying, "We're glad you enjoyed the books. Too bad it didn't take. Now, how about you go f**k yourself.", or we're going to say, "We understand that it's harder for some to fully grasp the ideas than it is for others. Welcome to the Gulch. We're glad you made it this far. We're going to now show you the pieces you're missing... Dagny."

C'mon now. I got you there. You know I did. No, I'm not comparing MemberC to Dagny. But, Dagny entered the Gulch with half-knowledge at best. And, not a single Gulch resident turned their back on her. They were overjoyed that she made it that far. And they were all more than willing to spend their time helping to complete her education. Do I have to draw the analogy any more explicitly?

Before you go into attack mode, again no, I am not comparing MemberC to Dagny. I know that Dagny was well on her way to understanding already. I know who Dagny was. I know Atlas. I'm just trying to make a point. You get it and you need to shut up and give me this one.

So, here's the thing - disagreeing on the issue of politics is not grounds for banning. Politics is a corollary - a conclusion. Stated more clearly, disagreeing on conclusions is not grounds for banning. Objectivism is not about checking conclusions - it's about checking premises. If it was a requirement here in the Gulch that we all agree on our conclusions, we'd have no members.

Guys, let's all take a breath. If nothing else, our job in and out of the Gulch is to spread the word and educate. We've got a war to win. It's a war of ideas and we're not going to win if we can't articulate them consistently, without tiring.

MemberC, get your shit together already. You're a walking contradiction, and everyone's patience has worn thin. No, you can not sign up as a Producer. Producers are advocates of Ayn Rand's ideas - which you have not yet fully grasped. We do however hope to have you in the ranks eventually.

Now, to the new tool. Another one from Producer Eudaimonia, the "Confidence" meter. Only Producers get to vote on "Confidence." And, a member's "Confidence" level rises or falls on those votes - publicly. That's all I'm going to say about it for now. We're still a couple of weeks away.


P.S. If any of you are contemplating attacking me for anything I said in this post, make sure there's some meat on those bones. Some of you newbies with the "Atlas Shrugged is not about self-sacrifice! I'm more Objectivisty than you!" crap is just... no.

- - - - -

"If you are seriously interested in fighting for a better world, begin by identifying the nature of the problem. The battle is primarily intellectual (philosophical), not political. Politics is the last consequence, the practical implementation, of the fundamental (metaphysical-epistemological-ethical) ideas that dominate a given nation’s culture. You cannot fight or change the consequences without fighting and changing the cause; nor can you attempt any practical implementation without knowing what you want to implement.

"Speak on any scale open to you, large or small— to your friends, your associates, your professional organizations, or any legitimate public forum. You can never tell when your words will reach the right mind at the right time. You will see no immediate results—but it is of such activities that public opinion is made."

- Ayn Rand
Philosophy: Who needs it? "What can one do?"


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  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 1 month ago
    Excellent.

    I am really impressed at all the improvements that have come in lately and the ones still in the works.

    Thank you for the hard work.

    Now its up to us to hold up our end.
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    • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 1 month ago
      I agree - I really like the changes recently to the header bar - the dropdowns were a little clunky, the color-coded radio buttons are much better. Well done, and thank you!
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      • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 1 month ago
        Personal suggestion for new color bar on top...
        Do not include marketplace entries in Hot, just New if they're New... for, say a week or some amount of time?
        Featuring what are basically ads in the Hot Zone strikes me as a sort of version of Net-Neutrality but in a negative way.
        If the Gulch is a marketplace for IDEAS and conversations, I'd venture that the marketing/sales side is a bolt-on and not a capstone.

        imnsho.
        Fire away...
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  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 1 month ago
    I'm not a "producer" yet, but the new feature sounds like a good one, Scott. Thanks to you and Eudaimonia for envisioning and implementing it.
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    • Posted by rpoach 9 years, 1 month ago
      FFA, thanks for the thanks.

      Let me take off my "Eudaimonia" hat for a second and put on my "rpoach" hat.

      Please, know that the real people making these upgrades happen are jbaker and sdesapio.
      Seriously.

      I come up with a good suggestion every once in a while, but these are the guys pulling it all together.
      I just try to help them out and not to break too much shit along the way.

      And there are others making it happen too, like awebb and dfish.
      Do I need to mention John & Harmon?

      So make sure that all these guys get some of the love too.
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      • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 1 month ago
        They got a lot of love here... if it wasn't for them, this wouldn't be here, and the universe would be less of a rational relief and more of a people's Free State.

        Rpoach? Interesting. Would have never guessed!
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  • Posted by terrycan 9 years, 1 month ago
    Helping people on their journey is a noble task. I am surprised "outsiders" would want to be here. It appears to be a problem. Been trying to spend more time here and less time in Facebook. I enjoy a civil debate with a leftie. Often they resort to name calling and changing the subject.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 1 month ago
      Am I an "outsider" because I am a libertarian, not an Objectivist, and intend to stay that way?

      What I see in this article is a real but vaguely defined threat and/or promise of a purge. Obviously anyone who seriously dissents won't dare speak up.

      Let the purge happen. Either I'm wanted or I'll move on to someplace where I am.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
        RE: "Am I an "outsider" because I am a libertarian, not an Objectivist, and intend to stay that way?"
        No jdg. "Outsiders" as in anti-liberty, anti-Rand.

        RE: "What I see in this article is a real but vaguely defined threat and/or promise of a purge."
        Wow. Really? Where? In all seriousness, can you point it out specifically? This was an open letter to my friends here in the Gulch jdg. And, it was an anti-purge letter.

        RE: " Obviously anyone who seriously dissents won't dare speak up."
        Dissents to what? Why wouldn't they speak up? In the 3 years the Gulch has existed, out of the 20,000+ members, I think we may have banned 2-3 people. What was said that has you so spooked?
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  • Posted by tkstone 9 years, 1 month ago
    I thoroughly enjoy my time here and love to learn and think this will only help people like myself become better at discerning reality and following sound reason. I also hope it will help those who see the confidence measure drop to check their premises. I know it will me. As for Member C I think I may agree with LS. Proof needs to be in the pudding. Need to see a little growth or at least a willingness to learn rather than preach.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 1 month ago
    I think MemberC has proven his unwillingness to learn or explore the philosophy further (or let it sink in) and I believe him to be harmful to the purpose and growth of the gulch. He's been here plenty long enough to have proven his position. At this point are we seriously supposed to keep trying to cultivate a known contaminant?
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      Did I mention we have a new Producers only tool being released soon?

      Soon.
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      • 12
        Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 1 month ago
        Thank you, Scott - I am looking forward to this new and more interactive "gulch".

        My question is (dare I ask?) - is it a Tool tool? --giggles--

        My thought is this. Some people are never going to get beyond the "1 or 2 out of 10" stage, or may take a long time to have it sink in and show growth. Although our Gulch is changing and maturing, cutting people off from it totally - save those who have obvious and blatant malicious intent - will inhibit their potential for growth.

        I will admit - some of those people here can BE PITA's, some will never get it, some are flat out trolls. But I also think to those who have decidedly non-objectivist thought processes that are here - and then someday "get it".

        It would be like "You get to read AS one time. If you get it, you can read it again, if you do not, then you are banned from reading it again". Some people (and I include myself in this group, unashamedly) can be quite stubborn and hard-headed about this - exposed to something, but have the sense and logic of it not sink in until they're surrounded by it for a while, and it processes something internally that shapes them.

        Some trolls - deserved to be banned, as they expose themselves as having no other purpse here than being destroyers, looters, and miscreants. But others - well, even IF they never become "hardcore Objectivists", still provide both an outside view and a counterpoise that enables the rest of us to check OUR Premises. That there is value in that is unmistakable, and losing that would, IMO, be a detriment to these hallowed halls....
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        • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 1 month ago
          Susanne - Yes. I fear a narrowing of perspective more than I fear dissent. It is a relief to be present in the Gulch, where I can talk with people whose world view is similar to mine, but I enjoy comments that call into question the boundaries and limitations of our philosophy - and often those comments come from people who are semi-outsiders or who have a single major point of difference (eg religion).

          In a word:
          Trolls with malicious intent => OUT
          Other rational parties => Their presence in the Gulch may be valuable to both us and them

          Jan

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      • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 1 month ago
        Yes...but I don't think for one second that it will help with MemberC (unless the tool is a sledgehammer...and we named it the "Peter Gabriel"...never noticed how biblical that name sounds...can I recant that idea?) ... but I don't have much info to go on (how it works). However, if I base my opinion on MANY previous interactions with MemberC I'm not holding my breath for MemberC to be suddenly enlightened by implementation of a confidence meter. I'm hoping the confidence meter tool will be a way to signal other members (particularly fresh landers) to certain comments in the effort to either advise them that the comment is questionable or well worth reading. Something along that line maybe?
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 1 month ago
    Scott; Well said. I empathize with the amount of turmoil you've had to deal with lately. You've gained my respect.

    I really like the 'confidence' idea. +1+1+1+1
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  • Posted by Ibecame 9 years, 1 month ago
    My sympathy to you for having this burden dropped on you. I should disclose that I am relatively new in the Gulch. If I understand correctly I fully agree with you that some "policing" of the membership is necessary. After all this site is open to the world, and there are those out here that would take enjoyment out of filling this site with enough discord to ruin it for all of us that enjoy the serious (and not so serious) discussions. In the Movies, or Atlas Shrugged John Gault didn't invite everyone.
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    • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 1 month ago
      That policing is best done by the inhabitants - I think Scott is giving us the tool and we are expected to use it.
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      • Posted by Ibecame 9 years, 1 month ago
        I fully agree with you, but throw out the caution that "policing" is a serious responsibility. Not to be overdone. Considering where Ayn Rand came from and what I have read so far; if she were alive today I am sure she would agree.
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  • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 1 month ago
    Well said Scott! Zero argument from me.
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 1 month ago
      Ugh!
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      • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 1 month ago
        So, is there finally something we don't agree on. I was beginning to wonder if there ever would be. I enjoy reading your comments because I like that you tell it like you see it and I find myself agreeing with almost everything you say. I still am done with member C and if he left the site I would not miss him at all. Although I never would have voted for a progressive, 10 years ago I may have posted comments like member C. I learned and want to hold out that Member C might possibly see the light. If not I like the fact that there is going to be a way to address it. I think this is a huge step in the right direction.
        Respectfully,
        Ed
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 1 month ago
    Scott, the thing which I love the most about this
    online gulch is seeing things from others' perspectives --
    others who think straight and check their premises.

    it's a breath of fresh air when I can come here
    and "let my hair down" with you fine folks!!! -- j

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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 1 month ago
    If this were a real, physical Gulch, how would you handle someone who behaved well in society but did not agree philosophically with Objectivism? How would you handle your 18-year old daughter who had a life vision change and became a socialist? How would you deal with someone who was uber-Randist, but a fanatical jerk?

    One of the things that this virtual Gulch is good for is as a crucible to evolve how we would act in the real world. It is interesting to see what criteria we draw and what mechanisms we implement.

    Jan
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 1 month ago
      Good question. It might depend on the maturity and stability of the Gulch.

      If my son, for instance was a serious socialist, and active or vocal in trying to change the Gulch, I would ask (tell) him to leave, experience the real world and I'd contact him when appropriate, like John Galt did to others. It would be sad, but not different than my real life experience telling him he cannot stay in my house until he apologizes to my wife (step mother) for his behavior to her through high school.

      If the Gulch became a mature, stable "country", it would seem we could absorb some such infections with our immune system, but perhaps not if it is so weak it must be hidden from the world to exist.

      I really don't understand the context of the main question. Someone, just running around throwing argue-bombs is a waste of everyone's time. Basic disagreement/arguments are another matter. I can imagine minor comments about Ayn that could easily stand, like "I don't appreciate her hair style", or how can an objectivist smoke cigarettes?". However, if one doesn't fundamentally agree with her philosophy, then why are they here?
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    • -1
      Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 1 month ago
      The socialist is more of a problem than the jerk. You can just leave the jerk alone. The jerks can write mean things, but they can't follow you around and harasss you.

      The socialist, OTOH, wants take your stuff by force.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 9 years, 1 month ago
    Sounds like a plan. Good job.
    It is not all bad to be challenged by one who is not yet there with the ideas of Rand. It can make us reach deeper into our own understanding of her ideas, If we then can influence another not yet there, we will have made the world one step better for ourselves. If they come and insist on tearing down Rand's ideas with only talking points from outside the gulch, then is the time to request that they leave.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 1 month ago
    Bravo, bravo, Scott. Well said, and in the nick of time.

    "You can never tell when your words will reach the right mind at the right time." - A.R. And she had enormous patience with people who did not yet "get it", explaining and reasoning tirelessly, looking for the right words at the right time.

    Looking forward to your new tools. It will be a lot more enjoyable to have discussions around here. Thank you! I'm with you all the way.

    We need to keep in mind that truth is objective, not subject to majority vote. In any disagreement, look at the premises. There are no contradictions, and no conflict of interest between rational individuals. Thanks for airing out the place.
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  • Posted by IndianaGary 9 years, 1 month ago
    Bravo! This is definitely the direction that I think GGO should go. It should definitely be an educational tool and this is a move in that direction. I won't miss the trolls. Thank you!
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 1 month ago
    Scott, I don't agree with you that such a tool will work or help memberC . I view him as a lost cause, content to stand on the sidelines of understanding and throw rocks at people.

    HOWEVER, it might help others see how his obviously off the wall blithering is viewed, and help them understand clearly that his view is not the Objectivist one. That is of use.

    AND ALSO, I'm willing to try it because it is - like so many of your ideas - WAY better than the scattered replies to him which was all we had recourse [original typo: recurse] to before.

    Finally, I'm with Mamaemma in giving you my thanks for addressing the issue.
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  • Posted by JCLanier 9 years, 1 month ago
    Objectivism is a continual work in progress. Hank didn't get it for a long time, neither did Dagny. They were both smart and capable producers. Yet they knew something just wasn't right... Even though it was shown to them over and over. It took risking their lives before arriving to the answer. (We are talking about years here).

    And, since we all run up against moments when emotions cloud reason (because we are emotional beings) we have to be able to step back and engage reason, check our premises if you will. Better said by Galt: "If any part of your uncertainty is a conflict between your heart and your mind follow your mind." Not an easy feat.

    Personally speaking, for me, the statement d'Anconia makes to Rearden in their confrontation at the home of Dagny is a cardinal truth that points to the human condition: "Within the extent of your knowledge, you are right." Hank was not right. But within the knowledge he possessed, he was right. We all find ourselves in that position.

    You cannot disassociate yourself from reason and logic and remain a viable human being. But some of us have a knack for applying logic and the process of reasoning, if you will, and yet some of us struggle continuously. Galt, suffering, almost walked in that night to declare himself to Dagny in the small office of the "John Galt Line", d'Anconia, in refusing the loan to Dagny, agonized and suffered, Rearden, suffered, vacillating continuously between "what should be and what was". Objectivism is a process that must be learned.

    I believe Rand knew that she had to "humanize" her characters and yet they had to have the moral fibre required to support her philosophy or, like she stated, it would have remained in a scholastic form on a shelf, a book of philosophy among many and for the few. Rand's characters show such strength, courage and perseverance and she knew that it would take this kind of effort to create and preserve a world where each individual had an inalienable right to the pursuit of their own happiness anchored in the principal of "value for value".

    Her philosophy is absolute (A=A) and mathematically profound and who sets out to follow that path has an arduous journey ahead.

    I stand with sdesapio's statements on memberC.

    And, until the time a line must be drawn, as we are reminded, when d'Anconia says to Rearden: " I came to warn you about the sin of forgiveness." (Hank took years to reach this point) then so say we all.
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    • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 1 month ago
      I am only addressing the last sentence of your comment, which was outstanding, by the way.
      I will never forget when Rearden said, "I would have forgiven the past- if, today, you had urged me to quit and disappear". Forgiveness is always possible, but it is up to the one who has transgressed to change and deserve forgiveness.
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      • Posted by JCLanier 9 years, 1 month ago
        Mamaemma: in the context of your statement you are totally correct and I agree.
        I was coming from the point of view that you cannot keep sacrificing and taking abuse (like Rearden, in particular his family members and his demise of believing he was "his brother's keeper") which is why he earned that statement from d'Anconia. I was applying it in correlation to MemberC. But I believe your comment and mine do cross paths at a certain point and are in agreement.
        I always appreciate your comments. Thank you.
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        • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 1 month ago
          Thank you, JC. Yes, your comment brought Rearden's statement to my mind. Having read it in Atlas as a young person saved me a lot of pain in dealing with my family in later years.
          I do hope that CG continues to learn, like all of us, if that is his purpose.
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 9 years, 1 month ago
    You exude confidence and wisdom.
    Seeking peace and eliminating strife creates a healthy environment.
    Helping the weaker members of the Gulch is practice for life.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 9 years, 1 month ago
    I'm not sure who are you talking about? I enjoy reading everyone's comment and idea's. Sometimes I don't understand where the commentators are getting their ideas from. I don't let it bother me. I, myself is committed to this forum and to Ayn Rand's basic tenets. If there are some who wish to only destroy our writings here and exercise their First Amendment Right so be it. Please be rational no profanity and present a logical informed argument. Many of us see and read about our country/constitution being dismantled by a segment of our elected gov't. This is, as Ayn Rand described in her book Atlas Shrugged. This is a novel coming true. For those who wish to expound on creating and conversing about a better life scenario w/i Objectivist Reality this is the place.
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