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The New Religion

Posted by khalling 9 years, 3 months ago to Culture
175 comments | Share | Flag

from the article:
Certainly, that is the tactic of choice at the prestigious, exclusive Hayground School in Bridgehampton, where an astonishing one-third of typically secular, sophisticated, ultra-liberal parents have, it seems, a “genuine” religious objection to vaccination of their children.

To parents who send their kids to local public schools that doesn’t cut it. A long-established local pediatrician, Gail Schonfeld, now refuses to accept patients the children of parents who won’t permit immunization. She believes in vaccines—in fact, considers them just plain good medical practice—and says if “parents don’t trust me with this, we won’t have a good working relationship.”


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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    except things like crab lice which can migrate to you
    from the seat . . no kidding;;; I know. . took a week
    to get rid of them. -- j

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  • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I've read about vaccines' waning protection, too. So those who are in favor of mandating vaccines for children should broaden that to include forced booster vaccinations for all adults, too. And from there, it's a small step to forced medical interventions of any type the government dictates, for anyone.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Actually, the numbers are different for autism. There was a marked-increase between 2006 and 2008, going from 1 in 100 to 1 in 88 (a 25% increase), but vaccinations were around long before 2006... so that by itself probably rules out vaccinations as a smoking gun.

    The number one risk of autism is being a boy. Ever seen an autistic girl? They are actually quite rare... 1 in about 255 compared to 1 in 54 boys.

    What does that tell you? The primary cause of autism is most-likley attributed to a mutation in a y chromosome.. and mutations are not caused by vaccinations.

    As for the numbers of unvaccinated... it would be an interesting question, since until recently (millennials having kids basically), unvaccinated kids were pretty rare... probably too rare to reliably run a study with. Add to that finding the ones that are both unvaccinated (maybe 1-3% 15 years ago) and 1 out of 100 that were autistic...

    Today that kind of study would be pretty easy to do with a medical records database... 15 years ago, practically impossible.

    As for the real causes of autism, we may never know, as it is unlikely that parents are completely honest with their medical professionals. Did the mom smoke dope and/or drink during the pregnancy? Was dad on an anti-psychotic drug at the time of conception? Was mom? Is mom willing to admit that she takes lithium to keep from burning her house down in a manic rage or barricading herself in a closet in a paranoid episode? Maybe mom is an attorney, but is also on lithium, is she going to admit it? Is the "dad" really the dad? or is it the milkman's kid? Are we looking at "dad's" medical records for history when we should really be looking at the milkman?

    Those are the types of very difficult questions that doing a study to determine the cause of something like autism. But honesty of the subjects in the survey is always an issue with very uncomfortable topics.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ultimately, anything like that is a certainly a drain on medical resources that could otherwise be used treating more serious patients.

    I don't think autism has necessarily increased, when I was little in the 60's / 70's, we had 'weird kids', we didn't know anything about autism. Over time, more and more odd behavior was tossed into the 'autism spectrum'. So you see a rise, because there is more attempt to diagnose it.

    We can also make the same observation that depression / bipolar disorder / schizophrenia has increased sharply "since the introduction of vaccinations". One has nothing to do with the other, we have always had a certain level of crazy... about 25% of Americans can actually be diagnosed with some form of mental illness. Vaccinations have nothing to do with it, we just have more treatment and therapeutic options for people that otherwise drank or doped themselves to death in self-medicating activity or went into a manic rampage banging half the neighborhood until the wife or husband shot them for cheating on them (and suddenly -1 less on the bipolar/manic depressive headcount).

    Personally, I think the increased numbers have MUCH more to do with people delaying having children until later in life... many women actually enter menopause at about 35 (my wife did actually at like 33). If you are popping out babies at 30+, compared to the human body really being ready to between 18 & 23 or so, there is naturally going to be a higher risk of either immediately-noticed complications, or those that take a while. Is it an automatic cause? Of course not, but there are many more people having children much later in life now than in previous generations.

    My dad had polio when he was a kid, it crippled him for life. The doctors broke his 'good leg' 25 times between the age of 2 and 7 with a hammer and a chisel to slow its growth to match the other one. When that didn't work, they put 60 steel staples in it. When he was about 40, the steel staples had shattered into 300 fragments that had to be taken out meticulously by a surgeon from the muscle tissue. He also spent several years of his childhood in a 'iron lung'.

    Eradicating a disease is a good thing. I wonder if we had an HIV vaccine, if the same people objecting would rush out and get one of those... after all, compared to the others, HIV is completely avoidable with lifestyle choices. Would the schools insist on an HIV shot? Would the parents object or would they embrace it? Would the objection/embracing headcount match the measles vaccination hysteria?
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  • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As with any illness like that, by themselves, it may not be terribly life-threatening. The danger with measles is that it is extremely transmittable. If you come into contact with a sick person, and you are not vaccinated, you have about a 90% chance of catching it.

    Lets say you catch measles while otherwise sick with the flu, or something worse, like pneumonia. While the measles itself may not kill you, it can certainly play a contributing role in the death of the patient.

    This is a very easy disease to treat, its sad that so many accept a risk consciously without necessarily knowing what that risk may be, and it threatens those that can't be immunized because of allergies or whatever. If they unvaccinated are a small number, they are probably safe. If they are part of 10 or 15%, they are probably going to be part of an outbreak.

    I'm vaccinated, so is my entire family, so I can ultimately just observe the panic.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That is very true. I always get a chuckle that the same mom's that panic about a vaccine are probably scrubbing their kids down with antibacterial scrub everyday, even though their mouth contains far more interesting bacteria than the public toilet seat they just piddled on in some weird squatting attempt to avoid touching it.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    well frankly it's confusing since the "deleted comment" is referred to on multiple posts including this one. Also "the poke in the eye" reference. Fair game on my post to bring it up. This post is about vaccinating , as a reminder
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  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    anarchist point of view. One is violence. period. Freedom of Speech is about the GOVT stopping you. There are too many other questions inherent in your statement. You can't come into my house and say whatever you want and claim free speech. In your example, if someone threatens violence it is about the govt stepping in and protecting you from the violence.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Hey...did you hide some comments on here? That's a first I bet...hiding your own comment on your own post.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I find this entire preoccupation with up and down points... pointless. Are we so addicted to the approval of others?

    On Facebook, the "like" button shows agreement and you can see exactly who pushed the button. Maybe if the Gulch's Nero-esque thumb plays showed by name who did it, we could inquire of the individual what their thinking was, in either direction.

    As for improving the genetic material of the human race by killing off or letting die the "weaker" members, there's no way to know how the evolutionary roulette wheel will spin. Except for extensive and continual inbreeding, there is enough variety in the species to keep immune systems survivable. We certainly have no way of knowing whom to breed into and out of the gene pool.

    And physical fitness is not all there is. Would Robbie kill off physical weaklings who could produce humanity-saving intellectual contributions?

    And what if we eliminated those whose ideas are by way of being diseases, like the religious and irrational and psychopathic or anyone we disagree with? Oh, wait, that's already being done, by wars and fanatic murders and legally sanctioned assassinations.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    1) You were talking ABOUT me.. yes I comment on comments made about ME.
    2) I find expressing myself therapeutic, and a high form of communication as it doubles as a release and reminder of the general mood of the conversation.
    3) I am not antagonisitic. I think you look for reasons to find offense, in particular, where faith is concerned so you can appear to take the "high ground" in some delusional, superior fashion. As if you have the morality market cornered.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Free speech is about the right to say what you want without having to fear violence. I don't see it as making any moral difference whether or not the person using or threatening the violence happens to belong to the gang that currently rules the place you live. "The government" is merely a gang like any other.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    1) curious that you chastised me recently for commenting on a reply that you made to someone, and now you are doing the same here.
    2) my kids chide me for being "square" in that I often will "curse" by saying "dag namit". I think that cursing itself shows a lack of capability in expressing oneself more capably. While I will do so on the very rare occasion, and in writing even less, I find it a very low form of communication.
    3) It is my belief in having had interchange with you over a course of time, that you use this terminology as a means of antagonizing those who have a perspective of faith. That seems unnecessarily antagonistic. Just my opinion.
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  • Posted by PeterAsher 9 years, 2 months ago
    "Over the last decade in the United States, the deaths of over 100 children — at the very least — have been linked to receiving a measles vaccine, compared with zero children dying from the disease itself, according to the U.S. government’s own compiled data."

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/hea...
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If I were a religious person using said "pokes in the eye" would you take such issue with it? Must I be confined to "gee willickers" and "darnit"s whenever I'm annoyed? Only the holy can use certain names when they're frustrated? This whole topic seems silly to me. Why do you care what I say anyway? You're trying to make something personal that isn't.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm noticing an apology isn't quite makin' it outta the gate there. Yet you were all free with the apologies when you thought I was offended earlier, over much less.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, they were an attempt to make a point. And other than being incendiary, they do. But being incendiary, they were inappropriate and I attempted to delete them.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It is you conflating things in this case. My comments to Shrug here, have nothing to do with my comments on another thread.

    This comment was made concerning the continual "poke in the eye" of those of us who have expressed a position of religious faith. We have expressed why we admire AS and still retain that position of faith. Yet some, and in particular LS, continually seek to stick a proverbial finger in the eye.

    As you know, I made a mistake, and am likely to suffer the repercussions of same. While not intended as offensive, I recognized that they could be seen as such and sought to remove those sentiments. Unfortunately those sentiments were captured and are being reposted.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You expressed "the same"? I think you got lost on the ugly 'express' way and went awry.
    You were trying to make something up for affect (unless you really meant it....did you?), these weren't genuine exclamations of exasperation, (like mine were), they were a nasty attempt to make a point...and a poke. FAIL.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    as you usually conflate issues, here's the point. . free speech is about whether the govt can stop you from stating comments-even vile things. The situation in France and Denmark was not about free speech-it is a bout using violence. The French govt just doesn't have the balls to stop these people who are willing to use violence. It's about the violence and govts not supporting free speech. Scott can say-not in my livingroom. private. No one in the Gulch is going to kill you for your inane comment. or poke you in the eye.
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