Complaints grow, but airlines still allowed to get away with poor service - Business - The Boston Globe

Posted by $ nickursis 9 years, 9 months ago to Business
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A nice summary of why business can sometimes be as bad or worse than government when it comes to doing things. I will not fly cattle car airlines at all unless it is absolutely an emergency. On top of that, I don't believe they take safety, or customer relationships as something other than a cost cutting possibility.
SOURCE URL: http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/01/25/complaints-grow-but-airlines-still-allowed-get-away-with-poor-service/vuLOn2L6FPPe9b2veyXB2I/story.html


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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 9 months ago
    The author of the article seems to want the government to do something about the airlines. I think that the government should do less about the airlines. For example: Remove TSA and let the airlines conduct their own screenings, but require that each airline publish how the screenings are done and whether there are armed air marshals aboard each flight. Then let people choose.

    Jan
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      Jan, that would make great sense in a world where good business survives and bad fail. Unfortunately, we live in a world where there is a huge herd of "educated" idiots who get jobs in "management" because they can't or won't work for real. Not that all managers are bad, but there is a huge reservoir on incompetents. They think that cutting employees, materials, quality, and safety is the way to profit, and cannot fasthom that there are results of all their "brilliant" ideas. The current state of airlines reflects their influence: merge merge merge and then cut everything, including seats. United was exultant on how they can change the seats for newer, skinny ones with less legroom and cram more people in, and saved the cost of 5 planes with this brilliant idea. Now, people think they "hae" to go somewheres and fly, so they suffer. When United is the only one you can either get, or afford, you suck it up and go on the cattle car. Theairlines own the insides of the planes and can not seem to get people to quit carrying half their wardrope packing into a "carryon" that is actually a suitcase. Not only does it weigh 80 lbs, but half the time they can't get it up into the luggage bin, it is way to heavy for the bin and sometimes they just blow the door off and crash on people. Then it takes another 10 minutes for all the goobers to get them down, with a few casualties, to get off the damn plane. I believe in the business model, where you succeed ort fail on your merits, but there are other parts of the equation, such as start up cost etc, that limit the ability to choose. I also read an article where United lost this couples luggage and they had a 2 day running gunbattle with them (complete with 40 min waits on the phone) for them to tell them "It will show up if and when it shows up". Made for a nice honeymoon. Nope, airlines are the worst customer service organizations I can think of, but I am sure there is plenty of competition, there are lots of "brilliant" college grads out there to muck things up.
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    • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
      Then add the one item that government regs never address... the absolute requirement for the airlines to take all responsibility for any procedure or safety FAILURE resulting from their actions or lack.

      Of course, applying that to the TSA might solve a lot of ground problems, but not the crowding and poor service between the Departures Entrance and the Arrivals Gate...
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 9 months ago
    The advantage of private business over government is the existence of COMPETITION. This is our savior and whats corrects things in favor of the customers. Government has no competition, and therefor winds up inefficient, and serving primarily itself. I think we would be better off with at a minimum independent states, and perhaps even units smaller than that which could compete with each other to attract residents.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 9 months ago
    I really wish people would just put their money where their mouth is. Between the years 1996 and 2002, I used to fly commercially every week from Pittsburgh, to Raleigh, NC and back. When the TSA was introduced and I experience my first groping, I decided I would NOT fly commercially again and I have not.

    I will drive my car. Yes it takes more time, but I refuse to subjugate myself to these government boneheads, taking over the private world.

    The solution is simple and requires everyone to just stop flying until the government gets its face out of it.

    This is also a hard thing because it means possibly inconveniencing yourself in other ways, like taking 2 - 3 days to drive from NY to CA.

    Everyone keeps talking about it and complaining about it but few actually DO anything about it.

    Ayn Rand is totally right, take away their money, i.e. passengers, and changes will come very rapidly. Or I became a private Pilot and started flying my own Piper Aztec. No more TSA concerns. Unfortunately Obamanomics ruined my income so I sold my plane but I still refuse to step foot on a commercial airliner until the Government and TSA idiots are no longer a factor.
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    • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 9 months ago
      Up until a few years ago, we used to "jump the pond" frequently. We used too try to book British Airways as their service was, for the price, very good. We also flew Lufthansa (very businesslike), Aeroflot (surprisingly good), and Alitalia (felt like home)...

      We *did* have to fly an American carrier - twice. One was Delta (particularly awful cattle car experience that charged for *everything* - I have not flown *anything* Delta since) and the other was United (Overpriced, exasperating delays at every turn, and the cabin was so filthy I didn't want to sit down - for a 10 hour flight).

      My stepdaughter makes the jump fairly frequently from Britain to the US - she flies Virgin because they have consistently lower fares, but you get what you pay for - the one time she flew BA (rebooked due to some issue or the other) she was shocked at how "luxurious" BA was compared to VA.

      I found... that unless there's a d@mn#d good need to fly somewhere, I will either drive, or pay a couple bucks and hours more and take the train. While it's nothing like the old days, it's still far better than the Totalitarian Suspicion Advocates free x-ray strip search theater & complimentary cavity grope, and the sub-par sub-service by the US carriers. Sure, it's slower, but you have these things like legroom, decent food, and much more professional service.

      It requires a paradigm shift, however - one has to get out of the "instant gratification/need it NOW" mentality, and realize sometimes that slower is indeed better.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 9 months ago
        My last trip to Europe was in the 90's and the flights were fine then in coach at cheapest available fare (Lufthansa and Delta iirc.)

        I'm considering a train trip (atlanta to NYC) in the spring. How have you found the security issues? What is your biggest complaint and highest praise for recent train travel? Done any overnight trains in the US?
        All my train travel experiences have been in Europe, Thailand, and OZ.
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        • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 9 months ago
          Security issues? Non-existent. Well, there *was* a violent nutcase on one train I was on; the conductors subdued the animal, and had him removed at the next stop. But (for now, anyway) there is no TSA Psychosis like the airlines. The conductors *are* the train bosses, and if there are any issues like that - they *will* handle them.

          Biggest complaints? They can get delayed. As freight traffic is the Railroad's major money maker, freight has priority traffic on most of the routes (hey, business at its finest, as the freight can't be late), so I've seen schedules shot occasionally by an hour or so... once we were almost a day late (and the crew kept us informed throughout, and we got free food as well...) - from a derailment ahead of us, but that was the worst.. Not a biggie - just add time to your schedule. Other - internet access is spotty, tho I usually work or read so it's not that important - you upload and download near the cities you pass thru.

          Overnight? Anything long distances is an overnighter, and I like it. If you have a choice of getting off a 5 hour flight rumpled, pissed, and prodded to go to a meeting sweaty and wrinkled, VS waking up in your own bed and feeling well rested and energized, and taking the meeting like a storm, well, there ya go. I **highly** recommend getting a roomette for overnight travel - it's in addition to your ticket (and not cheap), but it's like having your own cabin. I've done the coach overnight thing as well, and while it's not as nice as a roomette, it's survivable... like sleeping in a recliner at home. (At least it's not a Pullman dropdown!!).

          Recommendations? Make sure you have access to a 110 outlet at or near your seat. I used to grab a table in the clubcar (which has 110) and work from there (I used to channel my inner Dagny :-) )... And get used to the idea you will both get into conversations with people around you, and find yourself smiling a lot - it's NOT an airplane! If you're in coach, and are prone to motion sickness, get a forward-facing seat (doesn't bother me, but it does some people).
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          • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 9 months ago
            Thanks, Susanne. When I said security issues, I meant TSA. I have no fear of terror attacks in the US except by the fools in DC and those pulling their strings. Delays happen in all forms of transport. Fortunately I won't be under any tight scheduling constraints. I will check out the club car, too, thanks.
            My overnight 'room' trains in Oz and Thailand were bargains compared to Amtrak's offering. Probably will pass on the roomette due to cost and see a couple broadway shows instead.
            I enjoyed my train travels overseas and will likely enjoy it here, too.
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            • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 9 months ago
              Have that multi-million stock option sale burning a hole in your pocket? Book a Bedroom - private bath *and* shower, you get treated like a CEO. I somehow (don't ask me how, I haven't a clue) got bumped into one from a roomette - it was probably the *best* experience I've ever had on a train. Fortunately, I didn't have to pay full freight on it, but damn, it made me feel like I was a CEO or Congresscritter or something (and that's not uncommon for those accommodations, either...) or traveling 120 years ago. Or both.

              Probably the best part is that TSA has yet to bring their special brand of "Terrorist-fear Theater" to the rails. They've wanted to for a while now, but IMO the logistics of doing that would be sketchy - too many stops, not enough militia - and ridership would plummet, which would kill the system. Anyway, between the train staff, the Amtrak cops (rare, but I have met a couple, overall damned nice guys and gals) and the other passengers, there's no need for the TSA Grope and Probe Squad.

              Probably my favorite overnight train experience (don't laugh) was in Russia. There's something about traveling via train there that really does make you feel like you are traveling 70 years in the past - absolutely stellar service, good food, and great staff. Of course... that could have been hallucinations from the vodka --giggles-- but it really was fun.
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              • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 9 months ago
                Speaking of crossing russia (I am envious), have you read Jim Rogers travel/investment books, Investment Biker and Adventure Capitalist ? Probably entertaining for your next train trip ;^)
                Its so sad that the politicos/banksters/elite appear to be set on fomenting trouble with Russia. They could be a great ally and partner for Americans if liberty were to break out here and there.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 9 months ago
    Having been overseas for 4 years, I haven't flown on a US airline since Nov 2010 (Airtran). Due to the requirements of VISAs in Oz, I did fly on foreign airlines frequently while overseas: Air New Zealand, Virgin Australia, China Southern, Scoot, Tiger, Quantas, Jetstar, China Air, and Emirates.
    All provided better service than recent flights in the US (2007-2010 timeframe), although some low cost carriers just barely better.
    The airlines best to worst (all travel in coach at lowest price available at the time):

    Two best where coach is like business class:
    Emirates (Oz - Thailand -Oz)
    China Southern (Thailand to Los Angeles)

    Good service (coach the way it used to be in the US:)
    Air New Zealand (US to NZ, NZ - Oz - NZ)
    Virgin Australia (OZ - NZ)
    China Air (OZ - NZ - Oz)
    Jetstar (Oz-Thailand-Oz)
    Scoot (Oz-Singapore)
    Tiger (Singapore-Cambodia)

    Barely better than US:
    Jetstar (Oz-NZ-Oz)
    Quantas (Oz-NZ-Oz)

    Your mileage may vary.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
      You forgot one other national-flag airline that gives good service--at least inbound to the country whose flag it carries, though quality varies as the level of booking on the flight:

      El Al.

      That's Hebrew for "Up, Up, and Away!"

      The national-flag airline of the Republic of Israel.

      The last round trip I ever took was on El Al. March-April 2011. A ten-deay tour of Tel Aviv-Jaffa, Caesaria Maritima, Mounts Carmel and Megiddo (overlooking Ramat-David AFB in the Valley of Jezreel), Tiberias, Kefer Nahum ("Capernaum" in Latin), Beit She'an, the Dead Sea (including Qumran), and finally Jerusalem.

      El Al, in getting me there, gave me the best service I'd had in a long time. They also have their own security. They grilled me something fierce, and wanted to know whether I'd bought anything in the Duty Free shop (I didn't; the airline runs a duty-free shop on board). But I knew with absolute certainty my flight would make it without incident.

      Other than that, from baggage handling to the tasty meals they served: no complaints.
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      • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 9 months ago
        We flew to Germany a zillion years ago on Pan Am, and loved it. It was glamorous. Business class was served a decent champagne in a glass glass before we left the ground.
        I was impressed, at a later date, by the Israeli security - while the plame is on the ground, it is surrounded by [presumably] Israeli military, with automatic weapons, at short distances that meant one could always see 2 others. and nobody went on the plane except their staff.
        They took it seriously, and what they do works.

        We also flew Midwest, from Denver to Minnesota {I think}. After they reach altitude, the chocolate chip cookies go into the oven, and you can have milk, chocolate milk, coffee..... and all seats were business class size. They, of course, went out of business. The American consumer, for the most part, is driven by price because that's what advertising tells him is the only thing that matters. Midwest was what I considered at the time, slightly more expensive - but I don't remember the numbers.
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
          Best flight was in 1963, from New Orleans to Gulfport, MS. In a DC3, at night with flames coming out the exhausts on both sides. The roar of the engines and the low altitude let you see all the houses along the way. Other than a flight in a B-17 a couple years ago (450.00 for 30 mins) everything else has been cattlecar.
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        • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
          A modern businessman just wants to get there. And a tourist thinks so little of the trip and only of the destination, that he is willing to let people herd him like cattle in a Confined Animal Feeding Operation.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 9 months ago
    This happens in every industry that gets so over-regulated no new companies enter that industry.
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    • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
      ... and merge in self-defense and desperation.
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      • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
        I respectfully disagree, the merge to eliminate the jobs of the middle management and pilots. The bigger the airline, the greater the inertia and inefficiency. Back in the 60's and 70's flying was actually enjoyable, polite and bearable. Now it is a frigging death match to survive.
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        • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
          Hey, Nick, my first flight was somewhere back in the mid to late 1960s, and in the late 60s and 70s it WAS a real treat to fly. Crew and passengers were neat, well-dressed and polite.

          After that, flying got less expensive and everyone and their screaming kids boarded the planes and a lot of the fun bailed out.

          In my experience, the airlines that kept a sense of humor about the discomfort of their customers became the ones that were the most fun to fly. I tend to blame the loss of that 'sense of humor' (or plain 'humanity') on stupid middle- and upper-management, trained by all the B-Schools which taught from the same playbooks, emphasizing cost cutting as THE WAY to higher profits, rather than the now-unheard-of concept of "customer satisfaction."

          I worked 'in industry' (semiconductors and computers) for over 30 years, and MY focus was ALWAYS on customer satisfaction, whether the 'customer' was a sales rep I was helping or an end-user customer trying to choose the right solution to solve their problems.

          And in that vein, I was hugely successful... until a lot of MY management bought into the idea of profit being The Goal, at the expense of everything else.

          I'd love to bring my attitude back into companies, but I've only seen one or two who have that kind of measurement in their goals list.

          So I live in my Gulch and don't get a lot of job offers regarding my skills. I've worked in Marketing long enough to know that if there's no market demand for your skills, you ain't gonna get any market share, no matter how good your 'product' is.

          The causes and effects that happened since the '60s are much more complex than anyone ever lists in a discussion of the topics. I love Socrates.
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          • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
            Plusaf, I too work in industry and computers (after 20 years going underwater), I am at 19 years with a major chip maker (the only one) and we are working the fine line between cost cutting, quality, and what is right. The new CEO has some new ideas that will make things interesting. But overall, I have found the dumbing down of education has made it's way into the business world and leaves it's mark in the things you find everyday: poor quality, things broke right out of the box, and a design only a mad scientist (or Rube Goldberg) can appreciate.
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            • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
              Spot on, Nick... I was with RCA Solid State in NJ for ten years, from 1968 to 1978, then did 4 years with HP in Power MOS-FETs before moving into the World of Computers at HP for another 20 years or so before Carly paid me to take my experience (and wisdom?) and get the hell out during her "downsizing to success" programs.

              Too many stories to tell, unless I publish an autobiography some day... :)

              My theory is that some time in the 80s or 90s, Critical Thinking died in the US and other places around the world.

              Everyone demanded a completely safe, no-risk world and demanded that they not have to pay for it.

              Today, I've had almost too much fun pursuing what a friend informed me to be the Socratic Method...

              If someone complains about a Problem, I ask them to consider WHY that problem exists.

              When they come up with their First Reason Why (which is inevitably wrong), I ask them, "Well, why does THAT happen?"

              All in an effort to try to drive them towards looking for the Real Root Cause of that initial complaint.

              I've already corrupted one grandson's mind with that... we sat at lunch a month or so ago drilling down into a problem he brought up, and by HIS count, peeled that onion back something like eleven layers, without even getting to something we could agree was Root Cause.

              His mom jumped in around level five or six with HER 'answer' to 'why that happens,' and I merely bounced "well, why does THAT happen" off her and she left the discussion immediately and I went back to onion-peeling with her son.

              Such fun.
              However, I have noticed a LOT more Mentions of "Critical Thinking" on blogsites and even in newspaper articles! Makes me very happy.

              Almost gives me hope for the future...
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              • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
                Ah, that is incorporated into Lean (which is a bandwagon to get into if you can, I got 6 sigma green belted and plan to milk a consultancy) as the "5 whys" and gets attributed (as is with almost all else efficient) with Toyota and their system. But Socrates can take the credit I am not fussy, but it does work, and is a much better way to find the real problem, not a complicated result of one. "I dove off the tree and did a bachelors in Science (InfoTech) thru University of Phoenix (which convinced me college is a boondoggle, but WTH), but they had a class in Critical Thinking which was not very critical. But it may be a small opening in the wall of ignorance and blame that currently exists as "logic".
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                • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
                  :) in 1983 or so, I met the guy who introduced "6-Sigma" to Motorola and visited one of Motorola's manufacturing plants with him to see how it really worked.

                  It was originally a way of gaining control over variance in manufacturing. Until you can make your manufacturing processes extremely repeatable (ie, narrow dispersion of the sometimes-Gaussian distribution of some parameter,) there's no way in hell that you can move the desirable peak to where you want or need it to be! He was/is a wizard of that. Motorola didn't invent it.

                  Actually, funny you should mention Toyota... I ordered one of the second-generation Priuses around the end of 2003. Turned out that what Toyota was doing back then was to quesstimate demand for colors, models and options, then order the parts to manufacture them, then manufacture them, then ship the output to the US. Dealers would 'horse-trade' with each other to get the combinations their live customers wanted.

                  That amused me, because I ORDERED my First Car from a Chevy dealer back in 1968 and GM, at that time, let me choose from a large list of options for what I preferred. And then they built it to my spec and delivered it.

                  Toyota had obviously made a semi-conscious Management Decision that Build-To-Order would be cheaper for them at the hidden price of customer aggravation.

                  They've been quite successful, overall, with that style, but I've always wondered if the alternative might have served them (and me) better...

                  Who knows... I'm not an Auto Executive... I'm just a lowly EE... :))))))
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                  • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
                    Really... the Prius thing amazed me because I looked at getting one, and NO ONE had any (about three years ago), and when they did, it was these three or nothing. So I got a Ford Fiesta, which still wasn't a bright choice. I am now patiently waiting for an Elio (3 wheels, 83mpg, 6800.00) which they have delayed from late 2015 to 2016, if they can find 240 million in funding. Hope they do, I have 1500 riding on it, and my Fiesta is almost at 100K, and I never know when a Ford will implode. Elio reminds me of Gault though, except he isn't stopping the motor, just trying to make it run rough...
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                    • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
                      Robbie... in late '03 when I put my $500 down to "reserve a car" they were building to forecast and not to order and the wait time WAS multiple months... as much time as you outlined above. Building to order At That Time, at least, didn't look as if it would have been any faster OR slower... And even back then, the container ships were crossing the Pacific, transiting the Canal and delivering to Gulf or Atlantic ports in a matter of weeks, not months. Toyota just made their own decisions for their own reasons, and since demand completely outstripped supply then and for several years to follow, I trust they were not about to toss out their entire order/ship/deliver process. I bit the bullet and now have over 66k miles on my '04. Just starting to think about replacing it, but nothing seems to break and it still out-corners anyone who tries to tailgate me! :)

                      Nick, an old friend of mine got a Ford Hybrid and just loves it. We got my wife a Prius V in '12 when her Camry XLE started leaking in multiple places under the hood. Probably would have done as well with a good steam-cleaning (cheaper than a new car, probably, including whatever repairs were actually needed) but 40mpg and lots of bells and whistles and she's quite happy with the V. And without even checking, Nick, I'll bet you're not in the US... our selections, economics and lots of other aspects are way different from many other parts of the world.

                      Like, my '04 took me, wife and two dogs across the US FIVE times, Pulling a small trailer, to the tune of 11,000 miles and still averaged around 35 mpg, down from its normal 45 or so.

                      Ya look at your needs and wants and decide accordingly.... a Very Gulchy Decision :) of course.
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                      • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
                        plusaf, actually I am in Oregon. I work in Aloha, near beaverton, and live in a little hole in the wall town 62 miles to the southwest. My Fiesta gets 40-42 until I put studs on, then drops to 37 or so. For an 18K "economy car" it has all bells and whistles, but build is shoddy in some places (broke the drivers door arm shifting in my seat, there was no support to lean on) and Ford claimed to have "bumper to bumper" warranty. I pointed out door was between bumpers but they delayed 3 months and then "so sorry" warranty is up. Will never buy Ford again, horrible service and customer service. I like Elio because he is Gault like. He has a vision, and believes he has a market. At 83 mpg, 6800.00 he is betting there are enough people who really only want something that can get them to and from work, and is fun to drive. Cool little thing with three wheels. I am sure gas will blow to 4.00 a gallon by summer after the Saudi's quit playing, and if they can find 240 million to start up, they say they can deliver by early 2016. I risked 1000 on them being able to do it.
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                        • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
                          :) I was very happy with my 92 or so Taurus until a few designed-in stupidities cost me much more than I ever wanted to spend on minor repairs.
                          Ignition switch broke loose from the lockout gears in the steering column and if I didn't have an aftermarket remote starter, I could not have driven home... from the dealer's! Hundreds of dollars to fix a fifty-cent bad design of a tiny plastic lever.
                          Then I discovered that when Jiffy-Lube refilled my radiator flush with tap water and saved themselves the cost of replenishing the antifreeze, the heater core rusted out and flooded the floor pan under the front seats. $50 or so for the new radiator core, but $400 in labor to field-strip the entire dashboard to get the new one in.
                          But hey, my '69 Corvette had a bad solder joint holding the radiator's drain plug in. Took a year or so for the dealer and local 'decision makers' to cough up the $100 or so for the $10 radiator repair followed by the water pump replacement, since that innocent byspinner died as a consequence, too.
                          Top of the line Chevy; highest volume Ford at the time...
                          My Prius? Yearly oil changes and checkups and other than that, insert gas and go.
                          Life in America.
                          Happy motoring!

                          Oh, it isn't Oregon, but our Raleigh area of NC is just LOUSY with Priuses. They're freaking Everywhere! :)
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                          • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
                            Ouch...how painful. I have seen a lot of Prius drivers who push the little things hard. I go up a winding hill and the first little spot and they zoom by. I try not to push the Fiesta as I have to milk another 50K or so out of it until it is paid off and maybe, just maybe, the Gaultian dream of an Elio will come true...
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
                    Curious as to whom it was that you think intro'd six sigma to Moto. I work for one of the guys on the first Moto team to implement SS.

                    As for auto ordering, it is almost always a trade-off for the customer on getting the features one wants and the time to receive it. A manufacturer overseas has a disadvantage in the time dimension since the most cost efficient method of transport is by ship, and that's months on the ocean vs. days on a rail car or truck hauler for a US manufacturer. Thus, most US customers even for US manufacturers usually make a compromise on color, features, etc. to get something on the lot, or soon to be vs. the exact configuration that they may want. The other factor is the factory efficiency of bundling features together. Customers often will get a bundle that includes some features that they don't necessarily want in order to get a couple at a reduced cost because it saves the factory money to install them all together. Efficiencies of scale.
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                    • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
                      And you're right about the bundling part, but one of the flip sides is that there is at least some inherent benefit to 'build to order' which commits the customer to a sizeable down-payment to lock in their desired features and options, PLUS the fact that inventory sitting unsold on a Dealer's lot "waiting for someone to stumble across what they're really looking for" cost them tons of inventory carrying costs plus moves the legwork from the order/manufacturing System directly onto the shoulders of the Customer! Not exactly the guy/gal you want to irritate if you're the seller, no?

                      It's actually a Business Model type of thing and all business models are built on decisions and tradeoffs (my First Law) and once in place, are pretty much set in stone. Until something ... what's the term we used to use?... A Stochastic Shock to the System forces fundamental change.

                      Such is life. Been there, participated, observed...
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
                You can go overboard with what is called the "5 Why Analysis." There's nothing magical about 5, but just goes to reinforce that the first level is rarely the actionable root level.

                I say "actionable root" because the true root cause for everything is, as many on this site like to say, that "existence exists." All else is effect.

                You should stop your root cause analysis (why questions) when you get to a level of actionable cause that you can address and prevent or guard against. That is sufficient.

                But good training for the youngsters. They'll frustrate their teachers to no end.
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                • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
                  That is true, but they callede it 5 why because in Japan, they felt that it took at LEAST 5 to get to root cause because of the layers of interactions, managers, engineers and materials. I saw an example that took no less than 11 whys to get to a reason why doors were installed incorrectly in one plant and it involved a who slew of reasons. The process will find a root cause but requires a very disciplined approach to not get distracted by an issue you find that is not it, but also needs fixing. I do like it though as an analysis technique when trying to improve procedures and training.
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                  • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
                    Nick and Robbie... actually, I've used the idea of SIX levels down as an average, but it all really depends on the Problem and its complexity.

                    I won't deny the excellent point you made, Robbie, about "actionable root" and that makes a lot of sense. In my (limited) experience but lots of observations, the higher level 'actionable' things may look good on the surface, but if they aren't well thought out and linked to any underlying Real Root Cause, in the longer run, those 'solutions' will end up being more expensive and failure-prone than if Real Root Cause were sought out.

                    Basically, when I've looked for Root Cause, the conversation with other folks really doesn't identify Truly Actionable Solutions at a sufficiently 'deep level' to be a good long-term solution.

                    A trivial example is Funding Social Security in the US... the lack of indexing of contributions Plus the changes to life expectancy are simple Root Causes that appear easy to address, but the Problem developed across scores of years and multiple generations of Americans! Most of the Solutions you'll read about look out a whole five or ten years with the expectation of Fixing The Problem Without Causing Anyone Any Discomfort.

                    And that's where I raise my hand... :)
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                    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
                      As well you should. It cannot be fixed because there is nothing to fix it with. All the money we put into it was stolen by successive administrations with the old "IOU". The IOU's are due and no one is paying, so basically we were swiped. We cannot 5 why dishonest behavhior, and they cannot fix it unless they find a way to bring back all the money they stole. Which they never will, of course. One reason I am against our current cast of clowns in government. It would take a complete wipe and rewrite to get this program running again and they will never step down. So we are stuck.
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                      • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
                        And, as I've been saying for a while now, "An electorate dumb enough to put O in the WH TWICE is probably stupid enough to put Hillary there, too."

                        Don't blame me... I would never vote for her, but mark my words just for the hell of it.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 9 months ago
    The real problem is the lack of competition. Any airline smart enough to advertise remedies to the complaints would quickly put the others in jeopardy, and you would see a quick change in attitude. Without fear of competition, airlines are in control and can get away with almost anything.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      Indeed, look at how they price themselves, one goes up, they all do, one charges baggage fees, the others do. Southwest was a holdout, but they seem to have given in in the last couple years.
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      • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
        Airline flights are full. The airlines have the advantage of limited supply and high demand. They don't need to accommodate the passengers.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
    The airlines are a government-protected oligopoly. The only thing that could be worse, is a national-flag airline. They know they've got you. Their only incentive, if they have one, is to make their country attractive for tourists and businessmen--to represent the country. But here in America, you have an industry with a very high barrier-to-entry. A government barrier.

    Only when people may invent any transport mode they care to, will the airlines realize they either improve passenger comfort, safety, efficiency, and service, or they lose business.

    Here's a barrier which ought to come down, and a company seeking to crash it. Terrafugia is making a name for itself with its designs (yes, designs, two of them now) for the world's first street-legal aircraft. The Transition (a fixed-wing push-prop) and the TF-X (a twin-engine tiltrotor!) are two exquisitely beautiful designs. To make them legal, Terrafugia had to arrange for special bendings of rules from the FAA and the NHTSA.

    Now if this design had come up in Galt's Gulch, Judge Narragansett would have refounded Underwriters' Laboratories, which would have opened a new division for road-capable light sport aircraft. In fact, these are the sort of aircraft Ragnar Danneskjöld would have designed, or at least conceived.

    Now imagine if everyone had the choice of either flying some puddle-jumping airline, or getting into their Terrafugia Transitions, or even Terrafugia TF-X's, taking off maybe from a standing start, and flying to the nearest airport to board a big jet. Or what if they were allowed to take off from and land on a sufficiently deserted road? Do you really think people would put up with the poor service of airlines today?
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    • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 9 months ago
      "The only thing that could be worse, is a national-flag airline. "
      You notice that in my other comments about overseas airlines which carrier is the worst?
      Quantas (and its subsidiary Jetstar) is the national-flag airline of Oz.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 9 months ago
    Maybe Obama and Oprah will join forces and start the "O-line" airline. They can fix all this poor business with their new model: having people buy tickets at twice the price, and giving away half the seats to those that really need them. All the socialists will flock to them.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 9 months ago
    I was impressed with an AeroMexico flight last year. Even had a hot meal in coach and it was tasty. Their boarding system was just goofy and stupid though, took over an hour to load a relatively small plane. Southwest would have that done in 20 minutes tops.

    Nonetheless, I travel a lot, around 100,000 miles a year on Southwest Airlines. I really don't have any complaints, they treat me pretty well, and I have a KSA/WKT from TSA, so I just pick the Pre-Check or the Priority line that Southwest gives me - whichever looks faster. I can't remember the last time I took my shoes or belt off or take my laptop out at the screening checks.

    I see a lot of people whine & complain, but this is unfortunately a necessary evil when we have been at war for 15 years. We have thousands of kids coming back without limbs or without their life, and we have old women griping about "groping" - which I have never actually observed to happen in 100,000 miles. Although, for many that I see, that pat-down might be the only action they got that year... Take off the fake jewelry and leave it at home and it gets pretty easy... It's called a Metal Detector.

    If you're going on a one-week or less trip, do you really need to pack like an African expedition? The less you carry, the easier it is.. I haven't checked a bag in over a year actually with an average of 4-day business trip and I never re-use clothes. If it doesn't fit in my trusty Duluth Trading roll-up wardrobe thing, it doesn't go.

    Alaskan Air is pretty good as well, and so is JetBlue. Stay away from United, Delta, etc.
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    • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 9 months ago
      To bad you didn't post about United before I booked my flight. In the last few years I've only flown Southwest or Alegiant, I picked United over Alaska (price the same) because United said my guitar can be carry-on and Alaska was unclear whether it would have to be thrown into the cargo hold and squished or I'd have to buy it a seat.

      It's the HUB thing that gets me, well besides tsa. Delta wanted to take me to Salt Lake, then Minneapolis, Phoenix and then to Mexico. That's crazy. As it is it will take 2 days to get there. It will all be worth it though, :) :) :)
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      • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 9 months ago
        If you think about it, there probably isn't any other way they can do the coverage without some kind of hub & spoke, although Southwest (and what limited I know of Allegiant) tend to do it a little differently. Southwest does some weird channel flight/patterns, but essentially have some kind of a modified hub - I live in Sacramento, so I can go pretty much anywhere on Southwest without a change in planes, and maybe 1 if I'm going to the East Coast - that would usually be in Phoenix, Denver, or Chicago/Midway.

        I like being able to change my ticket on Southwest if I need you, you only pay the difference in airfare, or as I've actually gotten often - a credit if the other destination or time is cheaper. My last trip to Las Vegas (business) was actually free (got home last night) because last month I switched from flying into Baltimore to Flying into Washington Dulles on the same day and was $230 less.

        On Delta or United, I'm sure they would have figured out some fees to charge to eat that up...

        My boss flies on United... he has been Premier 1K for over a decade and has 1.6 million Marriott points, and United still treats him like dogsh*t. Need a change? no problem, $150 fee plus $400 for what was originally a $300 ticket and the seat next was probably sold for $199 to someone on Expedia. He gets no consideration, and rarely an upgrade anymore, and boarding on that stuff, if you have a regular "ticket" you are a long way behind the credit card customers, the ones with a Gold Mastercard from United, the ones with Premier 1K, the Continental Medallion customers, etc.. by the time they called me the last time I did that 2 years ago, I was the last person in the waiting area.

        Southwest is pretty simple, if I buy a ticket today for a flight today, my A-list rating still gets me to be on the first pile to be boarded. If I buy it a week or so ahead, I'll always board right after business class. You get on in groups, and pick your own seat, so if I was flying on someone else with assigned-seats, I'd always be in the middle seat in front of the latrine in the last row with my weird buy-the-last-minute schedule. Basically my boss's problem, he does last minute travel, is Premier 1K, and still in the latrine seat.

        I even like the snarky jokes that Southwest stewards make about United. "Don't smoke in our bathroom, its a federal felony and a $10,000 fine.. and, you know, if you had $10,000 to spare, you would be flying United right?"
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
          The whole money machine of credit cards, membership etc is another reason to just rent a car and drive or skip the whole damn trip. I want to buy the service to get me from point a to B, not take a scenic trip, not visit every airport in Amerca, just go from A to B. Safely. Securely. And not harrassed or discriminated against because I don't "belong". It's all BS.
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      • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
        T HUB thing is a great example of insanity based on logic. Having your flights feed a specific site to lump them all together is not a bad idea, but when you take people all over hells half acre (as in fly to Denver from Portland (OR) to then fly to San Francisco), it goes crazy. Your flight shows it, I cannot believe it is more efficient to go up and down 4 times to get some where south, and you end up going east then north. It might make some skewed insane sense to them but fails the common sense test. Yet you cannot find a ticket to go to A from B, without going threough C,D, E,F. It must be so you can pay all the fees and taxes along the way, and support the food courts.
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  • Posted by wiggys2 9 years, 9 months ago
    I just read the opening paragraph and when i saw the airline sited was united i stopped reading because they are the ABSOLUTE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE airline in the world. a dear friends wife has worked for Continental for over 30 years and all of the Continental people, employees were horrified by the negative they saw attitude exhibited by the united employees. The reason Continental was not a union shop and united is. Need anyone say more. i had a situation personally that was so bad and cost me $1500.00 so i wrote to the ceo/president that took a 1/2 day to find and told him that i would never under any circum stances fly united again.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      I flew Continental frequently when my parents were sick and died, and they were not bad, but you are right, United was like adding black to white, it is now uniformly grey and nasty. -I can't imagine seats any smaller, and United just crowed they managed to do it. I donot ever see them going out of business though, they will scrap and scrimp and end up in BK court, where some dumbass judge will kill all their obligations to retirees and pilots and customers, and allow them to continue. Then they just get worse, but still have a whole stable of "brillian 100K/yr managers screwing things up more. If you break it, then you should be removed before any judge can step in and screw the employees. But not in America...
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