Global Jihad vs Islam Enlightenment

Posted by khalling 9 years, 4 months ago to Philosophy
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A religion is to a great extent a construct of its adherents. It consists of the beliefs, values, priorities, assumptions, and expectations shared by those adherents and reinforced by their culture and institutions. Academics arguing that particular acts of violence and repression are not condoned by the Koran do not negate the fact that millions of Muslims still believe they are.
SOURCE URL: http://www.atlassociety.org/ele/blog/2015/01/09/global-jihad-vs-islamic-enlightenment


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    Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 4 months ago
    I really wish I were a cartoonist. I'd draw the two dead jihadists in hell being screwed by pigs with Mohammed shrugging saying "Sorry guys, I thought I was speaking for god."
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 4 months ago
    I find this a well-reasoned article. Every religion sways to the whim of its adherents. Actions that were supported in one era (eg witch burning) are considered repulsive in others. The enlightened status of many Christians does not depend on the Christian bible, which enjoins one to violence in many passages, but to the fact that its modern adherents pick-and-choose the most enlightened passages from that book and hold those sections as paradigms for behavior.

    When this does not happen, when, for instance, fundamentalist Christians quote chapter and verse against evolution, then you have the same phenomenon in Christianity as you do in Islam: the replacement of rationality by rote. For example: The Catholic Church as supported the theory of evolution since 1950. You would think that maybe they would have a clue as to what Christianity means? This does not hinder the sects of Fundamental Christians from excoriating Evolution. These Christians prefer the security of their rote learnings to the peril of an uncertain and always changing universe.

    I do not think that there is a problem with Islam per se. It is quite possible for me to imagine an enlightened Islamic society. Indeed: such a society existed in the 10th century. I think the problem is a mega-inferiority complex: the fanatic Islamists of today are aware that their primitive tribal social structure will be swallowed by Western civilization unless they implement a policy of unreasoned unrelenting hatred. I think that the best thing to do is to make their hatred 'without profit' and kill the people who are trying to kill us and others. The Muslims who are just trying to run their shops and raise their families will get a very Darwinian message: if you take arms to commit aggression, you die. We cannot be victims, but I think that many Muslims want to go kill people about as much as I do. If we give them a chance to survive without being forced to kill, we may get 10th C Islam back again.

    Jan
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    • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 4 months ago
      Excellent points, Jan. Bible followers have not made a practice of beheading people much since the exploration of the New World; in recent times, marginal Bible followers seem to prefer 'koolaid', sex slaves, and building utopias.

      The lynch mobs and stoning crowds should back off the 'group think' mentality, park their nukes back in the shed, and Think about how to target force at Individuals initiating it.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
    Add this to it: the Koran does so condone violence, and exhort it. "Fight and slay the infidels..." It couldn't be any clearer.

    The Abrogation Principle--that the passage more recently written takes precedence--is the key. The Koran affirms that Principle.

    Guess what? The Fighting Words of the Koran are the more-recently written words. They therefore take precedence and remain in full force and effect.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
    I grow weary of hearing about the "good" Muslims who should not be lumped in with the Jihadists. I say that if a person is a Muslim, that person should be under suspicion. Until the Jihadists are disavowed by the religious people of Islam everywhere I don't believe any of them anymore. They give only lip service to what the West wants to hear while preaching violence to their followers. It is well beyond the time to get tough with Muslims until they share good faith in every definition of that. There is no longer any excuse for making excuses.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
      If they self-identify as Muslim, I think there is ample room for justified suspicion. And not because I disregard "innocent until proven guilty", but because of "predominance of evidence" and their own tenets. It isn't someone acting against the tenets of their religion, but acting in support of them. And when a religion attempts to enforce itself on others - especially through violent means - that's just wrong.
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 4 months ago
    I just read that the douglas county school district in Colorado wants the girls of the 7th grade to were basic burka type clothing when visiting a mosque in Denver, they will also visit a Jewish temple and a church. THE IMAN SAID THAT THE DRESS WAS REQUIRED. the school district employees should be fired and I hope all of the parents should decline to allow their children to go.

    there is a way to end this muslim problem. when you want to get ride of rodents you destroy the nest. the nest in this case is saui Arabia, iran, iraq, and all the rest of those countries.

    talking heads say all muslims are not at fault, really who has stepped up to attack the bad guys, no answer. if the women get pregnant and she gives birth to a boy that boy is a future warrior so to keep that from happening guess what. the bottom line is very visible; they will not go away they must be eradicated.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      well I can tell you the school district I was raised in didn't give tours of the catholic church, the protestant church, the synagogue in my town growing up. good grief. If you want to understand or get a taste of other cultures, visit little Italy or Chinatown. Religion need not be a big discussion in school. That said, I do not deny religious based clubs at school or curb freedom of speech in any way. Visiting a mosque which requires girls to hide what they look like is counter-productive to rational and therefore positive learning experience. You don't need to go visit churches as a field trip in school. This is agenda driven, pure and simple.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
        "Visiting a mosque which requires girls to hide what they look like is counter-productive to rational and therefore positive learning experience. "
        At best it's a negative learning experience about ideas that *don't* work in the modern world. I agree; it's not something for a 7th grade field trip.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
        I don't understand why they would be visiting any kind of religious institution in the first place if it's a public school. Wouldn't that automatically set off the PC police as "promotion of religion"?

        I can think of a lot more constructive field trips to spend money on, like to a natural history museum, a factory... Good grief, the choices are abundant.
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    • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 4 months ago
      I imagine those countries as rodent nests already. Call the exterminator! Infestation afoot.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
        There are 10s of thousands of persecuted people in those geographic areas. Your comment is inflammatory and not well thought out. minus 1
        I understand we are all angry here and I am not against force. you cannot kill everyone who practices Islam.. pitchforks down please and reasoned debate and ideas first!
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        • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 4 months ago
          Hello, K,
          Don't you think that by now all Muslims can be considered suspect of irrational hatred of non-Muslims, unless they convince you by their actions and convincing communications that they oppose the jihadists? It is certainly un-American to think that anybody is guilty until proven innocent. But Islam is un-American at its core. Have you read the Koran? I did. In my considered opinion it is an evil book. So, the Muslims who wish to disassociate themselves from fundamental Islam will have to deny parts of Koran. Just as Christians did keep only selections from the Bible. As we know, that took centuries. The need to prevent massacres by Muslims is urgent, needed right now. What do we choose.?
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          • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
            hi martimus. I am not religious. I find all religions irrational. Not all islamists are killing people. nor do all islamists promote the killing of "infidels". If I broad-brushed all anti-rational thinkers, all mystical thinkers as my enemy that would be pretty dumb. I want to see where we agree. I want Enlightenment for Muslims. It came for Christians. It can come for other religions. Basically I promote reason and logic. I do not ever agree to faith based concepts. I'm pretty surprised by the blood-thirsty response of my Christian friends on this post.
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            • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
              I am not religious either. The enlightened Muslims need to segregate themselves from their fundamentalist brethren. I see virtually no evidence of that. Each sect seems to be fighting all the others to death. Protestants started about six centuries ago.
              You did not answer my question: what actions we choose right now to prevent massacres?
              Friends as always.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
            I don't see this kind of response in here against the environmentalists. They are responsible for Waaaay more deaths of humans. They openly promote population control. They started and support Planned Parenthood. No one is screaming to nuke them.
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            • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
              +1.

              That's because they have big lobbying groups backed by lots of money, lots of politicians, and a biased media. It's still an ideological battle, but those doing the reporting aren't going to out themselves.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
            Hatred is by definition irrational, is it not?

            I worked with some Iranians in Cyprus who were seeking asylum. The woman one day had gone out her doors with makeup on. Some boys - not even teens - rode by on bicycles and slashed her face with razor blades held between their knuckles as a "punishment". The family said that they wanted to abandon Islam because of this and many other things. So I still hold out hope that there are some who live in Muslim nations who - if given the opportunity - would abandon it.

            I, too, have read the Qu'ran and I agree with you - it is an evil book. It can not be reconciled with freedom because it openly calls for slavery of many kinds. I would like to seek out and provide asylum for those who wish to embrace freedom, but I freely admit that this means abandoning Islam. I can not reconcile the Islamic faith with a support for the Constitution of the principles of liberty.

            As to how to prevent these massacres? Unless we are willing to call a spade a spade and stop pandering to Islam in general, the killings will not stop. Bullies don't stop until you bloody their proverbial noses with a resolved response. But I do not see that happening anywhere in the world, and until the world wakes up and is willing to confront the demon before them, they will continue to lose their lunch money.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
              Why would hatred be irrational? No more so than Love.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
                Aren't emotions by definition irrational? That they can be incited is true to a degree.

                I think the underlying premise in your comments is that I am asserting that emotions are bad or undesirable. I do not wish to assert any such thing. Emotions are helpful - to a point. Force of conviction arises from emotion and spurs us to greater acts of service and heroism than we might have otherwise entertained. Emotional connections to friends, spouse, or children can all be very positive things. But we must beware of the power of negative emotions such as anger and hate, because those lead to detrimental consequences.

                "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."
                - Yoda
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                  Emotions are neither good, nor bad, neither logical or illogical. They merely are. What you do with them, how you allow them to control your actions, that is what is undesirable.

                  With all due deference to the wise and noble Yoda, fear is only the path to the dark side if you allow it to be. It is how you react to the fear which is the path, not the fear itself.

                  As the great philosopher, Queen Latifah has said: "Fear can be good when you're walking past an alley at night or when you need to check the locks on your doors before you go to bed, but it's not good when you have a goal and you're fearful of obstacles. We often get trapped by our fears, but anyone who has had success has failed before."
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                  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Hello, R,
                    I have two problems with what you say.

                    On my moral scale, hate and envy are bad and love and courage are good (e.g.). These things used to be called vices and virtues. Of course political correctness police will not let you utter them in reference to anybody. "We are all equal!" Yah, I heard that before. The virtues and vices, in my opinion, are "emotions" based on "feelings" and by definition not products of Reason. How you judge and act, presumably based on Reason, is the only thing that counts in the end.

                    Queen Latifah may be a great philosopher, I do not know. Never heard of her, to be truthful. But, " ... anyone who has had success has failed before." is a preposterous overgeneralization and, in fact, false. Years ago, on my first try, I started a business (technical services to manufacturers and users of very high reliability equipment). In 20 years, it grew about 9-fold in revenue. I call that a success. There was no failure before. I was employed. At the same time, you can look at any mistake as a "failure". All my adult life, I called it a good day if I made less than 100 mistakes.
                    Do you now see why that is a preposterous overgeneralization?

                    By the way, I call fear a debilitating poison of the human mind.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      You should look up Queen Latifah (the source of the quote was meant to elicit some sarcasm - but I do think that she makes a valid point).

                      I cannot agree that emotions are good or bad, like facts they are. As you say, and I agree with, what you do based on them is what counts (and is the basic point from the QL quote - it is rational to feel fear when walking past a dark alley, particularly in NYC and similar, and so you should swing wide around them instead of walking near the opening - that is rational action based on the feeling of fear).

                      As to the success of your business (congratulations, by the way), your failures were not necessarily in creating a business, but in areas like negotiating, interpersonal interactions, vendor selection, etc. I firmly believe that if you've never failed, then you've never really pushed yourself and played things too safe.

                      Lastly, fear is only debilitating if you let it be. As a soldier, I was more encouraged by a fellow soldier who was afraid, but harnessed that fear and overcame. Much better than those who were "fearless" as they often were also careless, not having a rational sense of fear to keep them cognizant of the danger and therefore to prepare appropriately. Having gone to jump school, there's a reason that they make the chute packers jump with a randomly chosen chute on a regular basis. If you have a reasonable fear of a bad outcome, you pay closer attention to what you do. I wouldn't let a chute packer who said they weren't afraid to die to continue packing.
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        • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 4 months ago
          Angry? Not so much. Just fed up with the pussy-footing around the issue of who is and who is not a jihadist. The Koran instructs its believers to lie to infidels to get their trust, then kill them or dominate them. The object of the religion(?) is to dominate the world in a violent manner by eliminating all who will not submit to its dictates. In my mind, I say it is up to the "moderate" muslims in these countries to control their more violent brethren to stop the senseless violence of innocents in the rest of the world. Haven't seen any of that yet.
          The "10s of thousands of persecuted people" you mention are slowly being eliminated by the practitioners of Islam. If this continues, there will be no persecuted people left in the geographic areas considered to be Muslim.
          Read the Koran, K. See what you find. Or, better yet, see the comment by "Temlakos" below.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
            I understand at least some of what the religion teaches. I am more interested in the millions of muslims who do not commit jihad. what are you suggesting? we round them all up and stick them in a camp? I understand fighting terrorists, but I also see what we have accomplished since the wars in the middle east began. a trillion dollars and 10s of thousands of lost US lives. even as we claimed victory we allowed them to set up religious govts that did not promote social or economic freedom. we are in the running stretch for a new president. Jeb or Hillary-any confidence they will win a war on terror? no? well, that's ok-you still advocated for it over focusing on winning your freedoms back. a war against ISIS and moslims all over the world will be a huge fail. you can't even win the battle of ideas in your own city and state, let alone the U. S. of A. but watch as we send troops to Europe. see what freedoms the french will now lose over this attack...then Germany as we help. we continue to head toward Great Britain where you can be jailed for publishing cartoons like that....who is the REAL enemy?
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            • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
              Until those countries come to grips with the fact that Islam is an intolerant and irreconcilably different mindset than western culture, they will fail. In order to fight something either physically or ideologically, you have to be willing to see reality for what it is, call a spade a spade, and then act. Oh, and you have to have some set of clearly-defined ideological principles yourself. I think that is why the EU is so wishy-washy - they don't want to have to pick a single set of morals to live by, mistakenly thinking that "diversity" is a good thing.
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            • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 3 months ago
              The real enemy is the people who insist on ignoring what is going on in the name of a "religion" based on a book which advocates the elimination of those who would not submit to its beliefs. The "moderate" muslims are as guilty of the bloodshed for not speaking out against the perpetrators of the massacres. To not take action is to enable the jihadists. Read the comment by Temlakos below in this thread.
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 4 months ago
        What does rev in your name mean?
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        • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 4 months ago
          It means I took the time to get an affiliation with a recognized organization to perform various civil ceremonies for those who wanted same without the overbearing requirements imposed by some religions. You know, the ones who say a Baptist can't marry a Catholic without jumping through all sorts of hoops, or vice versa.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 4 months ago
            So you ARE a rev in favor of exterminating people? Just checkin'.
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            • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 3 months ago
              A natural deduction from my comment, I suppose. No is the answer. I am in favor of tolerating others if they will tolerate me. The "exterminator" comment was a flip remark at the time. I am tired of hearing of Islam as a "religion of peace" when, in reality, it is a cult of submission of the rest of the world to the beliefs of the followers of that cult. You get the drift.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
    The article implies that support for violence extremism is much higher among Muslims than among other groups of a billion people. If this is true, what do we do with this information?
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      educate. stop the PC BS and get people talking. I saw an article this morning. There were 500k jewish in Paris. in the last year, 113K have fled. A prominent journalist, who is also jewish, said, he doesn't know of one Parisian jew who isn't leaving or planning to leave Paris. The French govt is ridiculous in taking care of their citizens. They Martial lawed it and told business owners (of jewish establishments) to shut their doors during this heightened terrorist time. If the business owners can't work, their livlihoods are threatened. terrorist win? I'd say so
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      • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 4 months ago
        the French government is crying for money, so when all of the productive industrious Jews leave the French government will lose that tax revenue and they will still be paying welfare to the missing links.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
        It sounds like you're suggesting four actions:
        1. Educate - That's always a good thing.
        2. Stop the PC BS - I first heard this phrase in a magazine around 1990, and I still do not understand what it means, beyond that thing with bizarre euphemisms like calling the disabled "differently-abled" or mistakes "improvement opportunities".
        3. Get people talking - Like education, talking and listening are good.
        4. Paris should enforce its laws well. - Yes.
        All of this can be done without group identity politics.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          PC-people do not feel comfortable calling a spade a spade because society (often with govt influence) tells you you're racist, something-phobic. Islamaphobic is a crazy mad-up PC term meant to chill discussion. here is PC chill for you-listen to Oprah-
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXAho8vl...
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
            The young woman rejects group identity politics. Oprah holds on to it. I agree with the young woman. Sorting people into groups and evaluating the merits of the group is not productive. It may be actually counter-productive if the goal is to reduce extremist violence.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          4. Paris should enforce its laws well. actually they did over-kill. They imposed martial law on one group of people. Not like that won't strike a chord with jewish people. It's wrong. oh,
          5. let people own firearms and equip police with firearms, including traffic cops.
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          • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 4 months ago
            6- round them up all of the old residents as well as new and deport them
            7- never let any of the new or old back into the country
            8- EVERY country in the world should do the same.
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            • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
              Right you are going to stop an intellectual movement by annihilating them. Name one case where that has worked in history?

              What about people being individuals?

              If you want to advocate the Barbary pirates solution, then you have an argument. This solution starts from a principled place and argument but then says our people will not suffer violence without overwhelming retaliatory force. However, this is not annihilation.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
              I do not see this as enlightened thinking. easy-but won't be a great solution. We are losing these battles because the liberal ideologies of these socialist European countries depends on promoting the concept that ideas do not matter. When Reagan brought down the USSR, he had a three pronged strategy. The most important prong was to win the battle of ideas or propaganda. But the west continues to pander to Islam instead of pointing out ferociously its evil constructs and concepts. Doing what you suggest only encourages martyrs. It will be through muslim children and young adults, where the fastest inroads will happen. If people have strong economic reward for their efforts they will pursue that instead of policies which love death and promote de-humanization.
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              • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 4 months ago
                as far as I know there is no work history in the middle east. had it not been for the west building the infrastructure to pull oil out of the ground they would still be nomads or camel jockeys. had it not been for the west pulling oil out of the ground they would not have had something to steal from the western oil companies that made it possible. what makes you believe that something good can come from the muslim world is beyond my ability to grasp. they are an ignorant lot and they have no interest in changing their way of life even though they many have been exposed to the west. their way of life in dictated by the imans and the Koran and no matter how much is presented to them showing that it is idiotic they get the hair on the back of their necks up and refuse to accept the reality of their actions etc. I still maintain as a result of how they are that the must unequivocally be the missing links.
                as for Reagan and the ussr it was collapsing anyway and he happened to be the pres at the time so he gets credit because he said they are an evil empire, big deal. he also increased the welfare state of the usa which was more destructive to us.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                  this is a pin the tail on the donkey argument. People are individuals. They may be raised with certain ideas but they can also be enlightened. Christians were murdering bastards who didn't want people reading the Bible in the early and middle ages. not to mention witch hunting, etc. would we have advocated slaying all the ignorant and illogical back then? well, maybe if we were unenlightened. But- the Enlightenment had INFLUENCE and moved modern Christian thought. The pen is mightier than the sword. this is not just a meme
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                  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 4 months ago
                    from your perspective the argument has no end, but from mine since I was raised next to a community of syrian arabs and was quite friendly with many i also observed what happened to them as they aged and became very clannish and removed from the rest of american society and all by choice to an isolated inner circle. I noted how their thought process functioned etc. Sure each person is an individual but the difference between each of them is infinitely small. i have also read about how things were in ancient history but the christians did leave the dark ages and they are as we know them today. the muslims versus all arabs since many are christian simply do not want to change; get educated and all that goes with it. i am quite sure that what we are seeing all over the world in antisocial behavior by them will continue so long as people believe they can be educated. In that education they will have to be shown that the koran is not in their best interests as humans. since i believe they are not they will continue to function as they have been. in this case the mighty pen is being attacked by bullets so the people using the pens versus bullets had better wake up and soon. no matter how you look at it we are in a religious war and they have shown to be the most vicious.
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                      "since I was raised next to a community of syrian arabs and was quite friendly with many..."

                      wiggys, your first hand perspective would be an interesting post. consider it.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
            " They imposed martial law on one group of people."
            I have not followed the news and did not know this basic fact.
            "let people own firearms"
            Yes, not only for the obvious benefit law-abiding citizens deterring the bad guys but also for the mindset of people as grownup agents who can act to build a just world safe from crime.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 3 months ago
        "They Martial lawed it and told business owners (of jewish establishments) to shut their doors during this heightened terrorist time."
        Where can I read about the French gov't telling Jewish people to close their businesses and declaring Martial law?
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 3 months ago
    any set of rules, religious or not, which devalues
    women like they do, is wrong. -- j

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    • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
      Agreed. Freedom does not just apply to one sex. Nor does it apply to any skin color, IQ, etc.
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      • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 3 months ago
        I have come to believe that the muslims have learned
        to exploit sex like capitalism exploits self-interest (or
        avarice) -- muslims exploit sex-related-things to
        take over the world by extravagant reproduction, as
        capitalism exploits self-interest to take over the
        world by physical advancements ... if there were
        an example of capitalism to watch....... -- j

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        • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
          The way Islam's rules treat women is abhorrent. It is nothing short of enslavement of sentient beings and should be decried by NOW and every other women's organization in existence. Their deafening silence is telling.

          To me, it is the generational institutionalization of their way of life that is what needs to be overcome. They won't embrace capitalism or Western ideas until they realize that they are free to think for themselves. To them, the mullahs are the ultimate authority which can not be challenged, regardless the lack of logic, decency, etc. displayed. There needs to be some event that completely undermines the authority of the mullahs in order for large-scale change to be effected.
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