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Supremes Uphold Police Misinterpretation of Law in Ilegal Search and Seizure

Posted by khalling 9 years, 4 months ago to Government
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Sotomayer was the lone (that's right-LONE) dissent: “One is left to wonder,” she wrote, “why an innocent citizen should be made to shoulder the burden of being seized whenever the law may be susceptible to an interpretative question.” In Sotomayor's view, “an officer’s mistake of law, no matter how reasonable, cannot support the individualized suspicion necessary to justify a seizure under the Fourth Amendment.”
In the War on Drugs and escalating police state-the citizen will lose. Go ahead-argue for this decision-I want to know who I have at my back in the Gulch
SOURCE URL: http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/15/supreme-court-sides-with-police-in-4th-a


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  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 4 months ago
    I agree with the court on this one. The search was consented to by the driver. Had he not consented and the officer searched anyway, THEN we would have a problem.

    He issued a warning, not a ticket/violation for the tail light. Which he is allowed to do even if the law does not require you to have more than 1 functioning light. Just like warnings for burned out headlights and the like.

    However, since the driver consented to the officer's search request, anything found is allowed as evidence in other charges.

    Bottom line, they should have said no to the search. If a search is conducted anyway, anything they find is disallowed as evidence because they search was conducted without consent or a warrant. I believe the only consent that matters in a case like this would be the driver, as operator of the vehicle.
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 4 months ago
    Ouch - the driver failed the first rule of any police engagement - never consent to any search. Period. As soon as Mr. Heien (the owner of the vehicle) gave consent to search, it was over, ESPECIALLY if he knew there was illicit drugs in the car - if there was any time to deny a search request, that would have been it. That it made it to SCotUS amazes me, as it's a cut and dried case.

    woodlema nit the nail on the head - sadly, but true - as if you have a truck and one of the marker lights are out, it's considered a violation here as well. Being a VC violation (and a pretty well used one) gives the officer the authority to pull you over to cite you (or at least let you know you have a light out) and if you go gifting away your rights after that, well, it's on you.

    Who has your back? The initial responsibility for ones back is ones own. You tell the cops "Go ahead and search" and they find something in the search, don't put that on someone else. Heck, you may as well move to Beloit, Wisconsin... I hear the cops there love to ask for a search consent...
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
    Because it ended in a "good" result, I can understand the court's desire to side with the police. However, (and I never thought I ever would say this) Sotomayor is right and the others seem to be unaware of the true meaning of the word LAW. And, they're a bunch of lawyers, yet.
    (Got your back, kiddo).
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 4 months ago
    remember this is the same court that decided that obamacare was a tax. these people are birds of a feather. they will do what ever it takes to protect each other.
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    • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 4 months ago
      y'know, even if o'care IS a tax, the method of
      assessing that tax is unconstitutional. . all you
      have to do is breathe, and you owe the tax.
      this is unreasonable search and seizure, of $$. -- j

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  • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 4 months ago
    I think that the case against illegal searches would have been clearer if the cop knowingly used a false pretense to stop and search. In this case, one can make a comparison to a cop trying to help one change a tire (yea, I know, that doesn't really happen) and seeing illegal drugs. I don't know the details of how the drugs were found - was the search made on a false pretext or were there obvious indications of illegal activity?
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    • Posted by mccannon01 9 years, 4 months ago
      Cop change a tire. Believe it or not, it does happen. I was crossing the Susquehanna outside of Harrisburg, Pa. when I hit some debris on the bridge and got a flat on my Ram 1500 with the big wheels. Within a minute a police officer pulled up behind me, turned on his lights for safety, and then noticing I'm not so young anymore, the twenty-something officer changed the tire for me. I'll always be grateful for that because those tires are heavy and so was the traffic.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 4 months ago
        That happens, and may even be representative of some police agencies, but it's a distraction here. Whether the bad cops are 90% of all cops or 1%, they need to be stripped of badge and gun and put away lest the people justifiably declare war on all cops. If you're a good cop, prove it by blowing the whistle on the next bad cop you see.
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      • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 4 months ago
        If you look back into your "not so young" years, would you say that this was a Hall of Fame exception? In fact, that has happened to me once, but it was only once and when I look back into my "not so young" years, all of interractions with police were either negative or of absolutely no benefit to me at all. In other words, they were either collecting taxes on the highway or, when crimes did happen, they filled out reports. And this is not coming from a bad guy (well, I've never been convicted...)
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        • Posted by mccannon01 9 years, 4 months ago
          Perhaps a Hall Of Famer, LOL. However, I have relatives and friends who were/are cops and they all have stories of helping some poor soul out of a jam along the road of life. I also have a number of experiences where I just "knew" I was being hassled, but not being an a**hole towards the officer in question was always the right thing to do. I certainly would NOT reach out and bitch slap him/her as has recently occurred.
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          • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 4 months ago
            This opens up another can of worms (one that's already perforated) - I certainly am not advocating "reaching out and bitch slapping" the cops, but the overall negative that the profession has been leaving in the lives of average American middle class is just not helping the cops at the time when they have also accumulated quite a baggage with the lower class, which, at the moment, happens to be well connected to the upper class.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
        I stopped once to help another lady change a tire. We were both in heels. I pulled over to help when I saw her changing her tire with a state trooper pulled over behind her with his lights on for safety and doing paperwork in his car. He never helped. That was fine. Another time I had a blowout and a fireman who had just gotten off his shift would not take no for an answer. Put on the spare and followed me to Tireworld and paid for my tire. I found out after it was all done. All kinds of people in the world. Where I live the police are the school crossing guards. They also patrol the neighborhoods. They don't give out many tickets but if you 're in an accident you better have insurance. People have forgotten what freedom they had 30 years ago
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 4 months ago
      I perceived myself as out of the loop due to missing details myself.
      Writing the above, I imagined the errant brake light cop finding Cheech and Chong high was kites with a strong smell of pot and an ash tray stuffed with roaches (not the insect kind).
      What is an errant brake light cop now to do?
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      • Posted by mccannon01 9 years, 4 months ago
        Hah, Cheech and Chong! Al, you crack me up and drag up some rather "interesting" memories. Ah, the fun we had when T-Rex walked the earth. Oh, I'm second of 5. Four brothers, sister is the youngest. Yes, we spoiled her rotten!
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        • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 4 months ago
          Such is the case of my Little Red character, though not quite the youngest of seven brothers. Due to circumstances I shall not divulge due to the lack of a copyright, Germans think she would make a great hostage but just kill themselves trying to catch her. Don't know if I'll finish the dang thing to my satisfaction, though I have completed a first draft with an ending. It also has holes I'm filling in.
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          • Posted by mccannon01 9 years, 4 months ago
            Fill then in, Allosaur, and have fun doing it.
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            • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 4 months ago
              The current hole I'm working on is the piece of a subplot. Little Red's oldest brother in the French Army is charging a ridge defended along the slope by "filthy boche" riflemen, Maxim machine guns and 12 77mm field guns on top.
              Doing this, big brother is in the fifth row of a cuirassier brigade waving his oo-wee scary sword.
              A cuirassier had a straight bladed sword, not a cavalry saber.
              A pair of airmen have landed in a Caudron G. III to warn the charging general that the ridge has a huge newly arrived artillery support behind it but the brigadier just rides around them, thirsty for glory.
              http://wwiaviation.blogspot.com/2011/05/...
              Big brother will walk back in retreat after losing his best friend. He does not even get to use his sword by the way.
              And this stuff IS fun to write.

              http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Cuirassie...
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      • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
        the person was stopped for a broken brake light-actually one brake light worked, which is still legal for driving. The driver consented to a search of teh vehicle. (NEVER consent to your vehicle being searched). Cocaine was found and he was arrested for drug trafficking. Here is where the confusion is-because states and federal have not always agreed on this and the appellate court did rule in favor of the defendant on 4th Amendment grounds. 1st. Is it fair to say that an officer may stop and search if he thinks you have committed a crime? In this case, the officer thought the law was busted brake light is a violation. The officer was wrong. 2. The citizen may never use as defense that he misunderstood or misinterpreted the law. This gives police a clear advantage in stopping people. You must not only not appear to be violating any laws, you must also anticipate what an officer might interpret as a violation.
        http://www.cato.org/publications/legal-b...
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          Let me put it this way. I am never allowed to misinterpret the law as a defense for my actions. Now the Supremes have ruled police CAN. take this out all the way-don't look like a long haired hippy freak, don't drive a red sports car, don't wear a short skirt, don't let your lawn go to pot (ha!). this is outrageous and gives police further powers which is the EXACT opposite of what the police should have. If they indeed work for us, what they can do should be tightly prescribed
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        • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 4 months ago
          Thanks for the link. I have nothing to hide in my car but I'd rather not have a nosy cop find my legal hand cannon in the glove compartment beside an open jackknife. I also keep a couple of police batons in the trunk (I'm a retired state corrections officer). That's just in case of an attack from the rear on old guy me when loading groceries or whatever.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
    First let me say that driving laws vary significantly from state to state as to what constitutes a driving violation.
    Once stopped for a VALID reason, then the officer CAN use "probable cause" to extend the search.
    North Carolina:
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegis...
    Now the specific statute in North Carolina, uses both singular AND plural of the word stop lamp(s) Section g makes clear that any vehicle made after 1955, MUST have at least one stop lamp. Paragraph (d) makes it VERY clear that " shall have all originally equipped rear lamps or the equivalent in good working order." which means NOT broken or burnt out.
    § 20-129.1. Additional lighting equipment required on certain vehicles.
    (d) Rear Lamps. - Every motor vehicle, and every trailer or semitrailer attached to a motor vehicle and every vehicle which is being drawn at the end of a combination of vehicles, shall have all originally equipped rear lamps or the equivalent in good working order, which lamps shall exhibit a red light plainly visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of 500 feet to the rear of such vehicle. One rear lamp or a separate lamp shall be so constructed and placed that the number plate carried on the rear of such vehicle shall under like conditions be illuminated by a white light as to be read from a distance of 50 feet to the rear of such vehicle. Every trailer or semitrailer shall carry at the rear, in addition to the originally equipped lamps, a red reflector of the type which has been approved by the Commissioner and which is so located as to height and is so maintained as to be visible for at least 500 feet when opposed by a motor vehicle displaying lawful undimmed lights at night on an unlighted highway.
    (g) No person shall sell or operate on the highways of the State any motor vehicle, motorcycle or motor-driven cycle, manufactured after December 31, 1955, unless it shall be equipped with a stop lamp on the rear of the vehicle. The stop lamp shall display a red or amber light visible from a distance of not less than 100 feet to the rear in normal sunlight, and shall be actuated upon application of the service (foot) brake. The stop lamp may be incorporated into a unit with one or more other rear lamps. (1937, c. 407, s. 92; 1939, c. 275; 1947, c. 526; 1955, c. 1157, ss. 3-5, 8; 1957, c. 1038, s. 1; 1967, cc. 1076, 1213; 1969, c. 389; 1973, c. 531, ss. 1, 2; 1979, c. 175; 1981, c. 549, s. 1; 1985, c. 66; 1987, c. 611; 1989 (Reg. Sess., 1990), c. 822, s. 1; 1991, c. 18, s. 1; 1999-281, s. 1.)
    4Th Amendment:
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    Now if the officer AFTER stopping the vehicle notices in PLAIN sight an open beer bottle, gun, bongs, or smells pot smoke, (which is VERY distinct), Then the officer has probable cause.
    Now let's look at "reasonable AND probable Cause, and please keep in mind this is based on STATE Laws which are the applicable rules. the US Supreme Court has no jurisdiction if the State Laws do not violate the constitution, which in this case it does not appear to.
    In the individual case being referred to, we must ask a few questions.
    1)What was the probable cause? Broken tail light is NOT probable cause.
    2)Were there serious issues with the license, registration, and insurance?

    The Supremes in this case got it right, and Sotomayer must not be able to actually READ what the state statutes clearly state. Furthermore, the officer was RIGHT not mistaken, unless she was driving something made before 1955.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 4 months ago
      But the Supreme Court did not rule that the officer was correct in his interpretation of the law (which he may have been, per your analysis). They ruled that it was OK for the officer to be fallible in his interpretation of the law. He then took all of the correct steps: He asked the driver for permission to search the car. (If you had illegal drugs in your trunk, it would make sooooo much sense to give that permission...Just sayin'.)

      With 30,000 laws applying to each of us (generous estimate), it is no longer the case that we can 'look at the pillar that Hammurabi had carved and placed in the town square' and know what is legal. So the idea that the cop was allowed, by the Supreme Court, to be 'fallible' is a toehold into an idea that WE may be able to be allowed to be 'fallible' as well. This may be a Good Thing.

      Jan
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      • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
        Except there is overwhelming precedent against citizens on point. I appreciate woodlena's analysis nut the appellate court disagreed. They said the man should not have been stopped. Just as when you read someone their Miranda rights you should inform them they do not have to submit to searches where there is no warrant.
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        • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 4 months ago
          I agree with the manner in which you represent the present reality, but I do think that the Next Time a member of the public is damaged by a ruling that 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' a canny lawyer could now reply: Ah, but it is! Per the Supreme Court. (yadda yadda)

          Jan
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    • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 4 months ago
      The probable cause for the stop was purportedly the one burned out brake light. There were no license or registration issues at all. As noted above, the driver gave consent to the search. So the question for the Court was whether the evidence secured during the search (cocaine) was admissible at trial where the policeman mistakenly thought he had a reason to stop the car at all. Since the statute was somewhat poorly drafted and spoke of the brake lamp requirement in both the singular and plural, the Court deemed it a reasonable mistake on the part of the cop. Long ago the Court decided a reasonable mistake of law or fact can act to allow an otherwise improper warrantless search. Relying on that precedent and the statute at issue here, the Court forgave the cop and upheld the conviction. To me, two issues are raised: First, why do cops get the benefit of the doubt in this situation? In other words, why does the agent of the state get cut slack on an issue that goes to the core of our constitutional rights? Aren't the earlier precedents wrongly decided? Second, on the issue of consent to a search, why don't we have a Miranda rule of sorts applicable here. Shouldn't the cops have an obligation to inform the driver that he has the right to refuse the search? I'm guessing many people don't realize they have the right to refuse the search. They should be told.
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      • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
        This is where "Ignorance is no excuse" applies. Also, when you have a car especially in North Carolina you submit to a vehicle inspection EVERY year, so you should know the rules of the road, in addition you have taken at 15 or 16 a drivers ed course where these laws and rules are clearly discussed and you have to pass an exam both written and practical to get your license. Taking all this into account are we to assume that any licensed driver is ignorant of the rules they voluntarily comply with to drive on state roads? I assume or would assume that all drivers should be aware of their rights as it pertains to vehicles. If they are not don't blame the cops, blame themselves for not taking the time to educate themselves on rules and laws that are available to everyone in a multitude of formats.
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        • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 4 months ago
          I'm not following. Are you saying that the North Carolina vehicle inspection, drivers' education courses and license examination teach people that they have a right to refuse a search at a traffic stop? If so, bully for North Carolina. Even so, I strongly suspect many people don't know this. They do know about the necessity for search warrants and advisement of Miranda rights during custodial interrogations because of TV and the Miranda decision itself, but it is rare for a cop to advise of the right to refuse vehicle searches and it is virtually never shown on TV or in the movies. How could it hurt to do so?
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          • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
            No however you learn your rights I. School. If you do not know your rights again that is your fault. Next Helen the person was hiding cocain. Obviously this person knew that was illegal.
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            • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 4 months ago
              Right, the driver knew there was cocaine in the car. Doesn't that imply that they didn't know they could refuse the search? Again, how could it be a bad thing to tell them that? Unless you oppose Miranda advisements also because it is the defendant's "fault" if they don't know they have a right to remain silent.
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              • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
                Well, the Miranda is WHEN your arrested. As far as the other, I have always known I can refuse any request for a search without a warrant and would certainly do so, then inform the officer that while we wait for the warrant I will be contacting my attorney.
                Reminds me of a joke:
                A police officer pulls a guy over for broken tail light and speeding 4 mph over the limit and has the following exchange:
                Officer: May I see your driver's license?
                Driver: I don't have one. I had it suspended when I got my 5th DUI.
                Officer: May I see the owner's card for this vehicle?
                Driver: It's not my car. I stole it.
                Officer: The car is stolen?
                Driver: That's right. But come to think of it, I think I saw the owner's card in the glove box when I was putting my gun in there.
                Officer: There's a gun in the glove box?
                Driver: Yes sir. That's where I put it after I shot and killed the woman who owns this car and stuffed her in the trunk.
                Officer: There's a BODY in the TRUNK?!?!?
                Driver: Yes, sir.
                Hearing this, the officer immediately called his captain. The car was quickly surrounded by police, and the captain approached the driver to handle the tense situation:
                Captain: Sir, can I see your license?
                Driver: Sure. Here it is. (It was valid).
                Captain: Who's car is this?
                Driver: It's mine, officer. Here's the owner's card. (The driver owned the car).
                Captain: Could you slowly open your glove box so I can see if there's a gun in it?
                Driver: Yes, sir, but there's no gun in it. Sure enough, there was nothing in the glove box.
                Captain: Would you mind opening your trunk? I was told you said there's a body in it.
                Driver: No problem. (Trunk is opened; no body).
                Captain: I don't understand it. The officer who stopped you said you told him you didn't have a license, stole the car, had a gun in the glove box, and that there was a dead body in the trunk.
                Driver: Oh Yeah, I'll bet the liar told you I was speeding, too!!!!
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                • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 4 months ago
                  Yes, Miranda applies only after you are in custody. So what, you are still innocent, just like the driver of the car. I realize you understand you have the right to refuse a search. My point is that many many people do not understand that and they are, in effect, coerced into allowing the search. They literally think they will be arrested if they do not allow the search. I repeat, what harm does it do to inform them of their right to refuse the search? As for your joke, it's pretty funny, but we all know what would happen in real life: The officer would not call his captain. He would arrest the driver and search the car immediately. Upon finding nothing he would cuff and arrest the driver for providing false info to the police. And he would be convicted. Some joke.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          It is reasonable to not necessaily know you have a brakelight out. And even if you do you have to drive somewhere to replace it.
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          • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
            I am betting that when the officer pulled over this person, checked in with the central dispatch (SOP), ran the plate there were previous arrests or charges for drugs. You ever wonder what those laptops are that cops have on stands and what they are used for?.
            So he "ASKED" if he could search, the person said sure. Now regardless of his knowledge, or fear there would be a warrant requested for a search, he/she COMPLIED, making the additional search legal.

            Let's suppose they refused. The officer can detain that person or release them, If he detained and waited on a warrant, again no violation of rights.

            I guess the REAL answer is DO NOT BE A BRAINDEAD MORON and carry around COCAIN in your car PERIOD!!!!
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            • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 4 months ago
              You lose your bet. There was no record check in this case. If the search was denied and the driver detained you say the officer could "wait[] on a warrant." Really? And what would be the probable cause for the issuance of a warrant on those facts? Answer: None. So there would be no warrant issued or it would be subject to being quashed if issued and the subsequent discovered evidence (i.e. the cocaine) would be suppressed at trial and no conviction obtained.
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              • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
                You positive about the "no record check?" I have three friends who are cops, One State Trooper, one Wake County Sheriff's Deputy and one Harnett County Deputy. Their Standard Operating Procedure since WAY before 2009, is to 1), Call into dispatch give license vehicle type and location prior to stepping out of their car. Their laptops are used to pull up the records of the vehicle and person who "owns" the plate.

                I am a conceal carry. When I am pulled over I am required to: Roll down window, Place hands on top of steering wheel, and tell the officer I have a permit to carry, and inform him/her if I am or am not currently carrying a weapon.

                they KNOW before I even stop that I have a conceal carry, just like they would know that the plate was owned by someone and the assumption is the owner of the plate is driving.

                You sure there was no record check on the plate?
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                • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 4 months ago
                  There is nothing in the opinion or the dissent which indicated that there was a record check or if there was that there was any relevant information. Believe me, if there had been info obtained which gave cause for arrest, detention or search it would have been noted in the opinion. In fact it would have mooted the issues decided.
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                  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
                    Look who wrote the dissenting opinion. The same mindset that brought you "I can't breathe" and "Hand up don't shoot".

                    Michael Brown was a bully/thug who just robbed a convenience store and roughed up the owner, and the guy in New York had been arrested 31 times before. Don't see these "Liberal Judges pointing that out.

                    So I say again, you sure there was no check on the license plate when the car was pulled over?
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                    • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 4 months ago
                      If there was, it yielded nothing of significance. And no reason to detain.
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                      • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
                        Here are some facts. I did the research for you. Please take the time to look it up and read it all. Especially the appellate brief I provided the link to.

                        I try not to just spout off opinion without having FACTS floating around to back it up.

                        HEIEN v. NORTH CAROLINA
                        CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF NORTH CAROLINA
                        No. 13–604. Argued October 6, 2014—Decided December 15, 2014
                        Following a suspicious vehicle, Sergeant Matt Darisse noticed that onlyone of the vehicle’s brake lights was working and pulled the driver over. While issuing a warning ticket for the broken brake light, Dar¬isse became suspicious of the actions of the two occupants and their answers to his questions. Petitioner Nicholas Brady Heien, the car’sowner, gave Darisse consent to search the vehicle. Darisse found co¬caine, and Heien was arrested and charged with attempted traffick¬ing. The trial court denied Heien’s motion to suppress the seized evi¬dence on Fourth Amendment grounds, concluding that the vehicle’sfaulty brake light gave Darisse reasonable suspicion to initiate the stop. The North Carolina Court of Appeals reversed, holding that the relevant code provision, which requires that a car be “equipped with a stop lamp,” N. C. Gen. Stat. Ann. §20–129(g), requires only a single lamp—which Heien’s vehicle had—and therefore the justification for the stop was objectively unreasonable. Reversing in turn, the State Supreme Court held that, even assuming no violation of the state law had occurred, Darisse’s mistaken understanding of the law was rea¬sonable, and thus the stop was valid.

                        Keep in mind Section (d) which I cited earlier was extremely clear that "(d) Rear Lamps. - Every motor vehicle, and every trailer or semitrailer attached to a motor vehicle and every vehicle which is being drawn at the end of a combination of vehicles, shall have all (((originally equipped rear lamps or the equivalent in good working order))) , which lamps shall exhibit a red light plainly visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of 500 feet to the rear of such vehicle." making the stop perfectly legal.
                        Probable cause was established by the " the actions of the two occupants and their answers to his questions." The officer asked for consent which they gave.
                        http://www.ncappellatecourts.org/search-...
                        http://www.ncappellatecourts.org/show-fi...
                        Read this. Also in the appellate brief, checks were run, and when you read this you will have to agree that there was certainly something odd going on. One guy said they were going to Kentucky, and one said they were going to West Virginia.
                        Read some facts on this case and you will probably agree that the Supreme Court got this one very right.
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                        • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 4 months ago
                          I already read this on the 15th. If you read the entire opinion you will see that there is no holding that it was reasonable to search the vehicle absent permission. Permission was given, that's why the search was deemed OK. But the determining issue in this case was whether the stop itself was proper given the cops misunderstanding of the North Carolina tail light law. That is the issue which got the case to the Supreme Court, not whether "there was certainly something odd going on." And, by the way, I didn't say the Court didn't get this one "very right" given the state of the law. I questioned the precedents upon which they relied which allow the officer to conduct a search based on a "reasonable" mistake of law or fact without consequence. Moreover, I posited that an individual pulled over in his vehicle should be informed that he has the right to refuse a search. This would be a change in the law. I say again, how would it hurt anyone to inform them of the law in this respect?
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                        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                          wood, yes, let's splice legal jargon...seriously. on the ground, at the time, no one was in harm, no harm was imminent...seriously. get a grip on understanding the law vs. just riding your bike on the sidewalk and ruffling someone's hem. HELLO
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            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
              I never want us as a people to be at the place where some policeman yells- Put your hands on your head! get down on the ground! place your hands behind your back!....surrender your weapon...and gulchers just submit...ugh
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            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
              There are traces of cocaine on most $20 bills. Bring in the cainine unit. What if he found oxycontin in my purse and I didn 't have the scrip on me. We are a nation of laws not law and order land. Do not pay you to see a criminal in every citizen. Pay you to stop people doing something criminal. You must relish your TSA patdowns.
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              • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
                I do not think he was hauled off for the trace amounts on his $20.00 bill. Also since the TSA went into effect I refuse to fly, I will drive 3,000 miles before I subject myself to that BS. If all the people who WHINE about the TSA stop flying for 6 months, I guarantee you that would all change, but if you put up with it, goodie for you. I refuse to tolerate it. And the only reason they continue is because people tolerate it.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 4 months ago
    If the courts are going to let a cop get away with enforcing a nonexistent law due to "good faith" then it should be willing to forgive even greater levels of ignorance by you and me. Cops are the official experts, it's their duty to know the law before enforcing it.
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  • Posted by evlwhtguy 9 years, 4 months ago
    We always hear bitching about criminals getting off on a technicality. If this guy had got off that would be what everyone would be bitching about. In this case the court found correctly. The police made an inconsequential error so the "perp" should not have got off as a result. Now as to the "Crime" in question....that is a different story. Should the government be prosecuting such "Crimes" ? [ IE: possession of "illegal" drugs]

    The most recent "Choking" death of a poor downtrodden minority by the police comes to mind. The police were acting reasonably in carrying out the arrest. The arrestee died because he was a fat ass with a health condition and he resisted. The question is whether he should of even been arrested for selling individual cigarettes and thereby denying the state of its tax revenue. A ridiculous reason to be requiring the police to arrest anyone.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 4 months ago
      Even if they had cause to arrest Garner (which is tricky because they stopped him for getting in the way of a fight -- not for selling cigs) -- he didn't use any force, he died, therefore automatic murder as far as I'm concerned. If four cops who have a guy down on the ground don't feel "safe" without choking him to death, what moron allowed them to have guns and badges?
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      • Posted by evlwhtguy 9 years, 4 months ago
        It was for selling cigarettes. I saw the video and he complained about them hassling him over selling cigarettes. I also saw the take down. They did it as gently as they could. He resisted and was a fat-ass with a health condition, so he ended up dying. The police are not at fault in this situation, the individual is as are the politicians that required the police to arrest someone for doing something as innocuous as selling individual cigarettes. As far as the "Choke hold" is concerned, it was properly done. I have used this hold many times [I am not a police officer] and had it used on me. It will not injure a healthy person when used as it was done in this situation.
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        • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 4 months ago
          Sure they're at fault. An attacker takes his victim as he finds him. Vosberg v. Putney.
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          • Posted by evlwhtguy 9 years, 4 months ago
            We have to have police, they are not always at fault. They only do the bidding of the elected officials. The politicians are the problem not the poor schlubs carrying out the laws.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
              well actually, WE are at fault. We can control every aspect of police training, monitoring, resources, direction, implementation...down to the city level. we do it poorly. WE don't care until we're hugely alarmed. You and I have complete control over police academies. why are we not involved up in there HUGELY? we aren't interested in that. no one cares,until it's their anal cavity searched on the side of the road http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=body...
              if this does not offend you...well...
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  • Posted by mccannon01 9 years, 4 months ago
    I guess I have to go along with the courts decision on this one. To do otherwise, you would have to expect all police officers to have passed the bar exam and be well practiced at the law to always make the right decision and to be paid accordingly. I would expect the police to be "in the ballpark" enough to notice "something ain't right", make a reasonable call based on the current situation, and let the legal battle take place in court afterwards. I suspect the court was thinking the same thing.
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    • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 4 months ago
      Yes, it was. The majority opinion, written by Chief Justice Roberts, makes exactly your argument and explicitly states we have a right to "reasonable" police not "perfect" ones.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      no -YOU as a citizen should have to pass the bar. that's how the law comes down. You get NO pass for not knowing the law. period. How is this productive. Do you know what laws you have already broken in Obamacare? no you don't. that you rest at night because they have not enforced the laws you have surely broken is the sleep of the oblivious. The laws under the Constitution and common law were originally set up to work for YOU. the police should have very NARROW leeway. they are the ones with the authority under the law to use force. thus, their actions must be strictly in line with the law.
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      • Posted by mccannon01 9 years, 4 months ago
        There certainly are enough laws, ordinances, rules, and regulations to choke us all to death, even if we did pass the bar exam. This case seems to recognize that fact and gives policemen some slack in legal interpretation and perhaps even legal ignorance in some cases. Someone else in this thread mentioned this may give the citizen a defense regarding ignorance of the law. I hope so. So who made the law that ignorance of the law is no excuse? Maybe that law needs to be scrapped.

        I've said in the past "The Founding Fathers laid the corner stone of a justice system, but today we have a legal system and the two are not the same." The legal system is totally out of control. Especially when laws are passed before we even know what's in them.

        OK, lets have a bit of fun. Two bills come before the NY State legislature addressing the same issue. Which one will pass? Answer: The one that generates the most revenue for lawyers.
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  • Posted by radical 9 years, 4 months ago
    The answer is simple. The U.S. is already a police state. Factor in the militarization of local police, the IRS.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 4 months ago
    well, let's see. . the police might think it reasonable
    that a stoner would buy Doritos at the local
    convenience store, and thus conduct a search
    at the door of anyone buying Doritos. . this is ok? -- j

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