Employee or Contractor? FedEx back in court

Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 6 months ago to Business
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So if you only "contract out" to a single company, doesn't that make you an employee?

This one smacks to me of legal chicanery designed to save money at the cost of one's employees...
SOURCE URL: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-16/fedex-ground-says-its-drivers-arent-employees-dot-the-courts-will-decide?campaign_id=DN101714#p1


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    Posted by dave42 9 years, 6 months ago
    Here's a thought. Simplify the tax code and regulations so that *it doesn't matter*. So many problems just go away if you remove tax and regulatory reasons to prefer one form of relationship over another.
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    • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 6 months ago
      You took the words out of my mouth. In fact eliminating the income tax entirely would solve so many problems and help put people back in charge of their own lives. It is my belief that the income & social security taxes are the leading cause of the loss of individual freedom in this country.
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 9 years, 6 months ago
      Better yet eliminate the tax code. Pass a constitutional amendment that forces all states and federal governments to collect only one kind of tax, a sales tax. All other forms of tax are unconstitutional.

      You buy it you pay the percentage tax on it, period. No loop holes no codes, just sales tax.

      If you do not sale anything you do not have a tax form to fill out. If you do you pay X percent on your sales to state and Y percent to federal so you best make sure you collect it.

      Makes it simple and clean. Wont happen as it would put a whole bunch of accountants out of a job. Tax season would not exist for individuals unless they have a company and sell. No tax deductions to worry about and no manipulation of the system.

      The real beauty is the transparency it would give to just how much you pay in taxes. How long would people put up with everything adding 50% in taxes to the price of every good they purchased? Also another reason why it wont happen.
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      • Posted by LarryHeart 9 years, 6 months ago
        Yes xenokRoy. But we also have to make sure the Federal Government does not get that money directly and dole it out to control the states and the people. Here is how we implement the FAIREST TAX: http://02f8c87.netsolhost.com/WordPress/...
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        • Posted by XenokRoy 9 years, 6 months ago
          Any system put in place cannot allow for any deductions or credits for any person or business. The current Fair tax proposal has deductions for the poor.

          The deductions are all ready in place in a sales tax as the poor tend to buy less and do more for themselves. If I repair my car myself there is no tax on my labor, but if someone does it for me there is. This in and of itself is a deduction, a natural one that anyone poor or rich can choose to take advantage off. It is far less likely that a person struggling will pay another to wash there car... or any other such thing that they can do themselves to save money. Any deduction for any group is simple a doorway to get back where we are at.

          I also agree that the federal government cannot get money to control the states. It is not a hard issue to deal with. Very simply only the state can collect a tax on the people in the form of a sales tax. The fed has only two sources of revenue, a tax on good entering and exiting the country and payments for patients. These are intended to pay the costs of a standing army to protect those boarders to insure safe passage of property and the protection of property rights. Any other role for the fed, does not belong there and needs no funding.

          The key is to keep the flow of money down low enough to the feds that all they can do is what the constitution gave them a charter to do.

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          • Posted by LarryHeart 9 years, 6 months ago
            Agree. Limit funding only for Constitutional powers. Let me clarify one point, there are no unequal deductions or tax rates permitted. Only an equal amount rebate or pre-bate to everyone .

            This method enables a hands-of-government-free implementation to eliminate tax below the poverty level. No agency needs to qualify who is eligible.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 6 months ago
    All levels of government utilize contractors for all types of work. In total, I suspect they have a great deal more contractors than employees. Why should a company not be able to do so as well.

    As to the employees that are named in the various suits, they knew what they were doing when they signed on. This is labor union/NLRB actions IMHO.
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  • Posted by bassboat 9 years, 6 months ago
    To start with Fedex should not have to answer to the government on how it decides to deliver its cargo. The NLRB is anti- business and is making the US less competitive every year that passes. If they are so awful and will not pay a decent wage they will lose business. Laws and regulations only serve to hurt the worker in the long run.
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  • Posted by DigitalDialtone 9 years, 6 months ago
    IRS Section 87-41 and Dept of Labor policies establish a default employer/employee relationship. The issue in the mindset of this forum is that government should not regulate the ability to provide a work product, whether it is a physical product, a modification (piecework), or a service, as Fedex has established the drivers.

    The problem is that for me to purchase a service or product, _I_ am the person who dictates what work product I want, otherwise why would I purchase it? The gray area could apply to a painter, who after working on a restoration project for my home could be classified as my employee if the painter does not have other projects.

    The IRS regs establish that this simple attribute (Work specification) is enough to establish an employment relationship. Between the IRS and legislation pushing toward employment slavery, and the Dept of Labor who has made piecework illegal in support of Labor Unions and socialist agendas, the objectivism position of free markets to sell as much and at any rates I can negotiate is hindered by legislation, "Job Creation" and Employer policies.

    The Issue is that FedEx purchased a service of secure package transport. I surmise the driver has the freedom to set their breaks, lunch, path to drive, speed, etc. which is essential to the definition of Fedex making a purchase of work product from a contractor.

    If ONLY, the government would allow independent contractors to flourish, the entire expectation of Job Creation would evaporate quickly.
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  • Posted by RonC 9 years, 6 months ago
    By IRS rules, there are very few sub contractors. If a business owner sets hours, provides supplies, sets prices. sets service standards, assigns tasks between clients or jobs, or many other little details...Those workers are deemed "Statutory Employees"; meaning by statute their legal description is employee.

    In reality a sub contractor is someone you bid a job to, don't care when he starts, how much his fees are, don't care how he gets it done, just do it the best way you can with your own tools.

    Control seems to be the element IRS is focused on. A few years ago a friend of mine in the salon business had all "sub contractors" working for him. Read that again, that last sentence is an oxymoron. When several of the contractors could not pay their taxes, IRS bill the owner for $115,000 in taxes, fines, and fees. They ruled "the owner, is responsible for all debts, liens, and taxes incurred by the business!.

    This is the kind of ruling when government force is applied to everyday situations.

    In my opinion, flat tax, fair tax, anything is better than the system we now have. This system is used to modify Socio-economic behavior rather than pay for the cost of government.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 6 months ago
    United States Contract Law.
    1) No force was used when the drivers SIGNED voluntary contracts to drive "exclusively" for FedEx.
    2) Both parties agreed to the terms.
    3) Doing this will impact ALL contracts for all industries and put hundreds of thousands of independent contractors out of work.

    4)) Government needs to STAY OUT OF THIS!!!.
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  • Posted by Ariastaire 9 years, 6 months ago
    Dave42 has it in a nutshell, but it's interesting that so many on this website keep missing the key point
    that all of this results from government interference where it has no valid reason for doing so. Any of them actually read Atlas Shrugged?

    unnecessi
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  • Posted by $ Commander 9 years, 6 months ago
    All this can be found under the Federal Labor Standards Act. This all depends on how the parties interacted. If the employee/contractors were given specific access/guidance to the definitions of their legal position by Fed-Ex prior to the "changeover", Fed-Ex looks to be in the "right". I use this same technique in my business relations to legally avoid taxation. My best guess.....both sides of the "table" are equally culpable. Corporate Wolves and Sheeple.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 6 months ago
      Yes, but in order to be a contractor, there must be some leeway provided in how one conducts their job and how one is managed. If one is treated like an employee and micro-managed to the degree alluded to, one has a fairly good claim to be an employee - not a contractor - which is the heart of this claim. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, as the article mentions that previous challenges have gone in FedEx's favor.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 6 months ago
    We have deviated so far from "wrong and right", its silly. This is all about government power and money. The government does what we let it get away with.
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  • Posted by fivedollargold 9 years, 6 months ago
    Delivery of packages is the essential service provided by this company. Utterly disgusting ethics demonstrated by FedEx. Nevertheless, the workers agreed to the contract, so $5Au would reluctantly have to side with management if he were judging this case. $5Au's advice to drivers if they lose this case. Drive real slow and dare management to fire all of you.
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    • Posted by DigitalDialtone 9 years, 6 months ago
      You make an assumption that the worker is an employee of FedEx, otherwise (as you express the terms of value exchange is covered by a contract) they are a piecework contractor. That's important. The value exchange is the secure delivery of product from their distribution center to the pkg destination.

      Your thinking implies a collective work situation, (how dare individual achievement ruins the statistical mediocre average.) That's the problem with most J.O.Bs, they are a form of employment slavery which punishes exceptionalism because any increase in worth (being efficient) rewards the employer, not the actual worker.

      Your suggestion for a slowdown, only punishes the driver by making them less valuable, achieving poorer performance, and less commission from selling service.
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  • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 6 months ago
    It's all in the contract, sign a bad one shame on you, sign a good one, Yea! free happy dance.
    40 to 60 percent is the average cost of expenses for an Owner-Operator or a Contract-Operator, but a good accountant, specialized in the Transportation Industry (Mine was thru OOID) can save 20 to 25 percent of those by recovery from taxes. The real problem is keeping up with the paperwork, and not trusting a contracting company, who doesn't care about you, to do it.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 6 months ago
    I think it's a distinction without a difference. Technically, contractors are supposed to set their own hours somewhat, bring some of their own tools, advertise in some way for other clients, etc. I worked on a project once as a W-2 (employee) in which I billed weekly, charged the same rate I charge 1099 clients, etc, but they wanted me as a W-2 for some legal reasons. My wife serves on some gov't boards that pay her a trifling W-2 income, which is bizarre b/c doesn't see it as different from a paid speaking engagement. I've done 1099 projects where I represent myself as an employee. To me it doesn't matter. I think the IRS should drop the distinction and handle all employees and contractors the same way.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 6 months ago
    A contractor is just that. An entity with a contract. The rules of the contract must be obeyed by both parties. If either party doesn't like the term of the contract they may refuse to participate or change the contract. Just calling a person a contractor doesn't make it so, but calling oneself an employee doesn't make it true either. If both sides are rational, where is the problem? I guess the key is rationality, which seems to be the problem in most conflicts in every area of human endeavor.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 6 months ago
    So this means my son could not sue FedEx for its driver dropping a $1,000+ car mechanic tool box off at a crook's house. This was tracked by my son on the phone ten or so years ago.
    The crook made the said box go poof while his father next door said, "Tool box? There was never any tool box."
    I guess one of the the beauties of using a contractor is that if he expensively messes up, only he can be sued.
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