False dichotomy fallacy. The original choice was to have sex. Pregnancy is a potential consequence of that choice. This hasn't changed since humanity came into being.

Lol.

Neither do people with Trisomy 21 (Down's Syndrome) or Alzheimer's. Even children don't have autonomy over themselves. It is the responsibility of their parents (first) and then society larger (second) to protect the vulnerable.

Now you're getting into "A Handmaid's Tale."

Same for me, Eyecyou, but non religious people often dismiss a religious argument out of hand and just ignore it.

In the good ye olde days, she would have the baby and put it up for adoption. Of course, way back during the good olde back then depending where she lived, she may be scandalized or shunned or something.
A modern Muslim girl may be killed for shaming her father. Maybe even stoned by her neighbors.

LOL, children at around 4 years old or Democrats never. Can we abort Democrat politicians.....please?!?!?

I use the religious position because I am Christian and it is the simplest and quickest way to state my position.

As for parting with Rand, obviously as a Christian I part with her on religion.

It's the "Responsibility" part I question. Sure, mistakes can and do happen and timing can be way off but it's not for me or any of us guys to say. Which is why I believe these decisions belong in the family, church and with the doctors and not at all in the state or federal governments perview.

If a woman doesn't want to become pregnant, and does everything possible to prevent such an occurrence, but it still happens, what is she to do?

Women who don't want to become mothers shouldn't do so. However, that should not preclude their right to participate in responsible sexual relationships.

Potential life.

I certainly did read it.

Perhaps not unusual, though it would be for a male. Cruel indeed, if a female doesn't wish to experience the pain, discomfort, and risk of pregnancy and childbirth, not to mention the cost and inconvenience of parenthood. Also, not everyone should become a parent, for various reasons.

Also, much as I dislike those who disagree about such fundamental issues, I cannot advocate or condone harming them in any way. So there.

You assume facts not in evidence. Also, Rand herself wrote that those who are anti-choice are anti-life. I do agree with her that abortion becomes questionable after viability, the borders of which are shifting medically. I do believe in self-defense, but not in the initiation of the use of force. Again, you and I have vastly differing definitions of the pertinent terms and therefore will never agree.

any excuse to declare the unborn a non-person so you can destroy it

who next will you declare as "inconvenient" and seek to murder?
the old? the sick? those that do not vote the way you like?


you missed you time, Germany, 1933-1945

Pregnancy is not cruel and unusual punishment. It is natural to the female members of our species and is a requirement for the survival of the species. Parenting a child to adulthood may have it's challenges, but it is not involuntary servitude. If one thinks it is, then give the child up for adoption, don't kill it. If you treated your parents like servants and they let you get away with it, then that's your and their problem.

Oh, did I mention my son is adopted? He's 50 now and in spite of many challenges, my wife and I were never his servants and he was never our master. He is a fine responsible loving man with three sons of his own and I wouldn't trade away a single second of our relationship. If his birth mother aborted him all that would never have been.

Adding to what you are saying, Eyecu2, one doesn't need a religious argument to take a pro life position. Simply explore a line of reasoning starting with are we a civilized people? If we are, what is an important characteristic of being civilized? I would say respect for the value of human life. Then isn't human life a natural progression starting with conception and gestation and proceeding through infant, toddler, preteen, adolescence, young adult, mature adult, and geriatric adult? Killing this living entity at any stage is killing a human life and extreme care and reason must be presented before doing so.

I part with Ayn Rand's assertion that the gestation phase is not part of being human regardless of how well she verbalized her argument.

That's almost humorous. A fetus has no agency to take action on its own behalf, so no, the right to self-defense cannot apply.

Thank you for this enlightening information. However, I wonder whether pregnancy and childbirth can or should be mandated.

Does the unborn child have a right to self-defense? Asking for a friend...

Which is why I'm interested in the "science" that tries to prove that an infant in the womb isn't a human child deserving protection. Abortion admittedly halts a natural process which if left alone would result in a human child. Morality says that we shouldn't initiate force without a conviction for a criminal act. I'm not seeing either a scientific or moral justification for abortion here...

If the facts aren't clear, they haven't yet been established as fact. Insufficient knowledge isn't proof of an assertion.

https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2...

31 States explicitly allow for judicially-determined sterilization. Only two specifically outlaw it.