When (not if) Bitcoin hits $1 Million+ per coin.... I still won't sell.

As has been said, time will tell. Either way, if Bitcoin is $1 Million or $0.... I want you to remember me and remember this conversation. I'll look like a genius or an idiot and I am fully prepared for either.
Anyone holding bonds, saving, mutual funds and fiat dollars should know their fate is guaranteed.

Not selling anything. Good luck with your mutual fund

you are lying to people
plain and simple

your bit coin has zero value without a computer behind it

unlike things you can put your hands on

but keep selling your snake oil

Interesting comment for an objectivist to make. You're pretty upset about this. You may want to look in the mirror and find out why. I'll leave with you another common Bitcoin commentary for folks like you:

"Have fun staying poor!"

you are delusional

That's incorrect and unfair. I don't think there's much more to talk about. You're misinformed about Bitcoin, I've shared places for you to inform yourself and you call that anti-objectivist.
Truth is an objective absolute. You're statements are false no matter what your personal experience is. It doesn't supercede the truth.
Please don't try to bait me into continuing a conversation you have proven yourself unwilling to have.
"Everyone gets Bitcoin at the price they deserve"

She never came back to discuss the issues I raised and we are the only two here that understands that bitcoin and all other digital currencies and transactions requires electricity. When that is no longer widely available so is your wealth.

The individual SK who posted the original comment/link on this thread is a true Bitcoin believer. To some people it's a religion--no argument possible.

"I don't have a grocery store or gas station near me that "accepts" Bitcoin either." Yea you do, SK, if you have a Coinbase debit card; I have one linked to my digital holdings of choice. I use it often and no one's the wiser. As long as we have electricity and interconnectability, It's a go.

How are you going to deal in bitcoin or any other digital currency with no electricity, interweb or phone service. The moment the lights go out, the servers go out and possibly destroyed, all your wealth goes down the crapper. In the interim gold and silver, as history showed us, will be acceptable along with anything else you want to barter. This scenario will manifest naturally. Think carrington event on steroids and no chance for recovery before the end of this cycle is very likely right up to when the real SHTF (magnetic reversal and solar micronova) This 12K year cycle is just about up . . .

PS, the first thing to go will be the satellites.

Correct, not a long time solution, not even a short time solution. Some how, we Must keep cash.

Banks do have some choice, but not the big ones, they have no choice. So, it comes down to what is used a currency. I favor the Goldbacks, money made from laminated real gold sheets in percentages of an ounce. NH,TX,NM,NV,WY have been printing such physical currency.
In a world with no wide spread Electricity/phone service/interweb, this is the only way to go. Also, physical gold and silver coinage should be part of the plan.

"While they were used at one time as currencies, gold and silver are no longer used as currencies."

That's due to interference and coercion by the central banks. The central banks persuaded their respective governments to legitimize fiat currency in order to loot the people and they (the banks) couldn't do that - as effectively - with currencies tied to physical assets. Why do you think Russia is being pilloried? It is because they announced that they would sell oil for gold and tied the price of a ruble to a physical asset (gold/oil). The central banks HATE the idea of being unable to loot the people through forced currency inflation.

"... just like every other financial transaction today outside of cash..."

Which (cash) I already use almost exclusively - fiat or not. Bitcoin is a substitute which has higher transaction costs (ie the technology) than using cash. There has to be some value inherent in Bitcoin to offset these transaction costs to make me want to use it. That may certainly happen as inflation erodes the value of existing currency, but it remains an ongoing hurdle.

"Does your local grocery store accept gold or silver for payment?"

My State may not be the norm, but gold and silver are mandated by law to be acceptable currencies. I'm sure I'd get some strange looks from the cashiers if I took my "junk" silver in and used it to buy groceries, but it's entirely legal.

"Here's a great video"

Thank you very much. When I have 75 minutes I'll take a look.

"The answer to every Bitcoin question always has to start with the problems of fiat."

One system's immorality doesn't legitimize another's. Bitcoin has to stand on its own merits.

If you had spent any significant time on this forum you would have seen that there is general agreement on the inherent problems of a currency disassociated from tangible value, i.e. fiat currency. You do everyone here a disservice by assuming that we support fiat currency just as you do a disservice by assuming that many of us have not done extensive research on Bitcoin. -1

"Bitcoin is the internet in 1996. It is a global infrastructure that is owned by nobody. Anyone can build on it."

Your comparison isn't remotely accurate but we don't need to dwell on that. Unless you're carrying around a telecommunications network in your pocket AND the Bitcoin software (not to be confused with one's digital wallet) - two fairly major dependencies - Bitcoin is inaccessible even if you own it. And I'll point out the "teensy-tiny, but ever-so-crucial detail" (thanks, Hades) that the telecommunications companies only exist because the government allows them to. If they started black-listing the IP addresses for Bitcoin servers (and yes I am very aware they are decentralized), the entire system would fall apart. (And you could build an adaptive filter to do it just like they do on firewalls which do deep-packet inspection for viruses.) The Achilles' Heel in Bitcoin isn't the algorithm but the communications network.

This is not to say that Bitcoin should be avoided at all costs. All I am pointing out is that as of right now, Bitcoin is as much a fad as tulip bulbs (see a history of currency for relevance). There were certainly those who made a lot of money, and there were a lot who lost everything when it all came crashing down. I'm not advocating for the demise of Bitcoin, I'm just hesitant to invest in tulips.

"It's hard to use this forum to educate."

It's sometimes difficult to persuade - which is what you're really trying to do - but this shouldn't be conflated with "education." Voluntary trade takes two parties who agree on the goods/services, their value, and the medium of exchange.

Pretty hard to get around "electronic" (digital) holdings of some kind these days.
Even your bank account is digital these days. But so is Bitcoin. When the killer solar flare or weapon-related EMP occurs it will all be wiped out--so i wouldn't bet the farm on the long-run future of anything "electronic" or digital. Short term, yes (hardly any choice)--but not the final answer, and not a long-term solution IMHO

RE: '...hard currency is "completely useless." I'd like to get a better explanation of why you think so.'
While they were used at one time as currencies, gold and silver are no longer used as currencies. Today, fiat is used as currency and gold and silver are considered more Stores of Value (though they're not truly scarce). And, don't expect to be paying for your groceries with gold or silver anytime soon.

RE: "it still faces the problem of needing a connection to the Bitcoin infrastructure"
Yes, electricity and an internet connection are required - just like every other financial transaction today outside of cash (fiat). And, if we lose electricity, gold and silver won't be much help either. In that case, we'll be trading value-for-value with chickens.

RE: "AND a willing vendor in order to make it work"
So do gold and silver. Does your local grocery store accept gold or silver for payment? Bitcoin is peer-to-peer and requires no 3rd party.

Here's a great video explaining Bitcoin by Atlas Shrugged fan and advocate, Mike Maloney: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF362...

Also, I highly recommend reading, The Bitcon Standard: https://www.amazon.com/Bitcoin-Standa...

Yep, all good questions.

The answer to every Bitcoin question always has to start with the problems of fiat. If we can't agree that fiat money is complete bullshit, we can't continue.
Assuming you understand the problems with fiat and why it is immoral to use....

You're misinformed as to the "baseball card" ubiquitous-ness of Bitcoin. I don't have a grocery store or gas station near me that "accepts" Bitcoin either. There are things like this:

https://strike.me/

Bitcoin is the internet in 1996. It is a global infrastructure that is owned by nobody. Anyone can build on it.

It's hard to use this forum to educate. I highly encourage you to check it out. Bitcoin deserves a few hours of your time. Learn about the principles . Learn about the lightning network. There are some incredible use cases for this incredible network, and this community is the exact group of people that should understand and utilize it.
Bitcoin is the gold of Atlas Shrugged.... Except there can never be more of it.

I know what Bitcoin is and I don't have a problem with the algorithms or idea per se. But I'd appreciate it if you fleshed out your statements. You make two claims. First, that hard currency is "completely useless." I'd like to get a better explanation of why you think so.

Second, you say that Bitcoin is both scarce and portable. But it still faces the problem of needing a connection to the Bitcoin infrastructure AND a willing vendor in order to make it work. In my not-so-small town, there isn't a grocery store anywhere who accepts it. Same thing with gas and pretty much anything I need. Until that changes, it is comparable to a stamp or baseball card collection: fascinating, yet hardly a form of ubiquitous value.

What you guys are discussing can happen at any power plant. The generators need excitation (voltage to put it simply) in their field windings to generate electricity. The initial excitation has to come from something besides the generator in question. Usually a smaller generator capable of self excitation. The construction of self exciting generators is inefficient due to the use of magnetized metals , eddy currents present within those metals etc. BIG turbine powered generators are composed almost entirely of windings that depending on the difference between the voltage of the Stator and the Rotor windings allow controlled output based on something besides RPM. Like a helicopter rotor head. Prime mover RPM can remain constant and LIFT can be controlled by the pitch of the blades.

There may be a theoretical ceiling but.......there is no floor. How many decimal points out are people willing to go?
To me Bitcoins main strength is it’s portability. I can take $100,000 buy BTC get on a plane to somewhere else and the so called authorities can’t stop me. Because the BTC is effectively already there. That’s powerful. We need more of that.
And incidentally remember that pipeline ransom that was paid in BTC and the AuTHOrITIES allegedly “intercepted” the BTC and got it back before it made it to the address?......That was a bunch of BullShit.
Anyone that believes that will also spend hundreds of dollars on N95 masks.

Honestly, this video does a great job. Better than I can communicate through text. As a Randian, this should clarify. Please watch when you get a moment.

https://youtu.be/ZcjFrIMw2sI

I refuse to support the corrupt system. I have 160 acres. I grow most of my own food and have the ability to grow all of it. I'm ready.

All of my economic energy at the end of every month is either put into fencing, water, perennial fruit, livestock, energy, or Bitcoin.
I don't interact with dollars. I hate that system and will do everything I can to help it collapse. I have $500 in a bank account and I make "minimum wage". I get paid in cash and Bitcoin and I pay in cash and Bitcoin.

My goal is to help other producers see that by engaging in dollars, they are helping to keep this unethical slavery system alive. Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch. I really want this community to understand the philosophy.

This is a battle of ideas. Taking responsibility for your life. Enlightened self interest. Strength of the individual. These are all ideas that will change the world that I'm creating for my children. I'm not willing to kill for these ideas, but I am willing to die for them.

Actually I'm not trying to argue at all. You seem to be all-in on Bitcoin, and I don't see it. So I'm trying to understand it from your view, but I'm not there yet.

What scenario are you trying to prepare for?

When a nuclear plant loses power, it shuts down. This is a design scenario called LOSP - Loss of Off-Site Power. It happens fairly frequently. There are diesel generators that can provide backup power, systems which rely on gravity and differential pressure, and systems where there are pumps driven by steam from the reactor itself. If all that fails, the meltdown is inside the containment structure. TMI is a good example. Even at Fukushima, the radiation released was not a lethal hazard off the plant site.

Sorry I think you missed the point of my question.
What happens when a nuclear plant (anywhere in the world!) loses power. Can't function..... You have meltdown. What happens if 1 plant has a meltdown? 5 plants? 20 plants?

My point is.... An EMP knocking out humanity's electrical supply is far worse than the stone age. Your argument that Bitcoin wouldn't do well in that scenario is so incredibly ridiculous.
98% of humanity is dead if an EMP ends our energy. Nuclear plants are one example of why.

60% of the bitcoin network is powered by decentralized, off grid energy from micro-hydro, solar, and yes.... Nuclear. If all of that is lost at the same time...humanity as we know it is over.

My point is still the same: Bitcoin >Fiat in every way.

Check your logic: are you arguing for something, or arguing against? If you're arguing against, what is the alternative you're proposing?

I don't think I would describe a nuclear plan as "fragile". Not the ones in the U.S. at least. And nuclear is only about 20% of the power production.

Regardless of the source, an EMP or solar flare knocking ALL power out is my scenario.

If the cell phone tower can't get power, your cell phone is just a brick. Satellite phone? Maybe ... but there has to be something to talk to.

In that scenario, it is not a question of fiat money vs bitcoin. The question is: what do I have that I can trade with my neighbor to get what I am short on. Canned food for gas for the generator. Ammo for canned food. Some might take silver.

If they think everything is coming back online soon, they might even accept cash. I would not expect ANYONE to accept a check. Or the promise of a bitcoin payment if and when the internet comes back.

Well said. Great points indeed.

What happens when a nuclear plant loses power? These are very fragile facilities. You would know this as well as anyone.

The banking industry is not more essential. 3 billion people are unbanked.... But they can have a smart phone!

Let's make this conversation way simpler. 2 choices Fiat money vs Bitcoin. Are you saying you choose fiat, government backed money?

We can have the gold, food, generator, ammo conversation next 😜