Transhumanism Vs. A Conservative Death Ethos

Posted by Eudaimonia 9 years, 8 months ago to Philosophy
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This piece by Edward Hudgins in the latest Atlas Society newsletter is a pre-review of a book by Zoltan Istvan

In this short piece, Hudgins briefly addresses the central argument in Istvan's book.
He also address the argument of Wesley Smith a conservative detractor of both Istvan's argument and of Transhumanism in general.

It is not clear whether Istvan is making a case that Transhumanism is a beneficial movement.
Smith makes the case that Transhumanism is not beneficial because it is inherently selfish.
Hudgins makes the case that Transhumanism is not only beneficial but compatible with Objectivism precisely because it is selfish.

I find Transhumanism disconcerting.
Aristotle speaks of form and function being integral to each other.
He also speaks of human ethics being integral to this form and function.
Ayn Rand resurrected Aristotle's approach to ethics: "man qua man".

As an Objectivist, I believe that Aristotle and Rand are correct in their approach to the question of human ethics.
Marxists consider men evil and imperfect because men are not and yet should be ants, bees, or some other collective hive-mind insect.
Smith considers the Transhumanist possibility of immortality to be selfish because men are and should be plants which must "go to seed".
Transhumanists consider "man" to be a phase which man is passing through.
None of these lines of thought address the Objectivist ethical tenet of "man qua man".

Transhumanism strikes me as inherently Nietzschean.
If the Transhumanist possibility of immortality succeeds, then we would no longer be longer "men".
It is not only humanism which will have been transformed, but according to Nietzsche and Aristotle our values as well.
What then would be our ethic?

My concern is not of a Luddite nature.
It is more "Popeye" - "I am what I am".

Your comments are welcome.
SOURCE URL: http://www.atlassociety.org/ele/blog/2014/08/20/transhumanism-vs-conservative-death-ethos


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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 8 months ago
    Interesting. I do not fear life extension or worry about exploding populations. It has been demonstrated that people will have fewer children when local populations increase. Accidents will continue to take lives and nature is always providing new ways of controlling the population. I've always been intrigued by the thought of having one's id placed in a robotic body and living on... Past attempts at things like cryogenics seem like silly pipe dreams...
    Nietzschean... now that notion, if taken to create superior beings likely to rule over others is proffered, I am a apprehensive.
    On the other hand it is not dying that scares me... it is living under tyranny...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ4pO7Ih8...
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
      Like you, I see plusses and minuses here, depending on who is motivated and for what.

      Handguns let some people rule over others, but then, everyone could have one and they lost their advantage. Alternately - and more positively - advertising became a special study. People complained about being "manipulated." Now it is all common knowledge, and - more to the point - we all use the same tools, as for instance, this post began with "Like you..."

      The point is that every technology spreads to those who want it; and as it is replicated, the costs of production and delivery go down. So, even more can afford whatever is new and better.
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  • Posted by CTYankee 9 years, 8 months ago
    The Web is almost an Trans-humanist experiment, and has exposed an number of flaws. Perhaps the most offensive flaw is the lack of containment of snarky 13 year-olds.

    Sarcasm is difficult enough to pull off effectively in person when non-verbal communication channels are wide open. So many repeatedly fail to use effectively in the text-only medium of the intertubes, that there needs to be a physical penalty...

    It is also likely that the 'dumb masses' of society would simply self-delete when faced with the powers that accompany a trans-human existence. Their limited minds would be incapable of handling the bandwidth, and ultimately all the permutations of fantasy football would all be explored -- then what would they do?
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    • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 8 months ago
      Send pictures of cute cats. They will not self-delete...they will use their resources, just as the rest of us do, for things that please them.

      Jan
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 8 months ago
    I think life extension and enhancement are wonderful applications of man's minds, but I wonder most of all about the impact to human evolution. Does any developmental stage of man have an ethical right to essentially halt evolution at that point? Or would we arrive at enclaves of norms to observe future evolution and judge it.? Or have we already reached the point that natural evolution has reached the point that it's time for technological evolution to replace it?
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
      Zen, I have to agree, but perhaps not in the way you intended. Is this not what every "economic regulation" is from the licensing of automobile dealers (read about Tesla) to the licensing of attorneys and barbers? You asked: "Does any developmental stage of man have an ethical right to essentially halt evolution at that point? " And I thought of Rome. Successful merchants turned their enterprises over to slaves and free servants while they retired to the country to live like successful farmers. Rome sought to maintain itself as expressed by its civic virtues of gravitas, civitas, pietas, et cetera. So, like his father, the Marc Anthony we more easily know conquered a city (several of them), looted them of their wealth, and delivered that to the people of Rome. He even gave the Library of Pergamum to Cleopatra.

      In short, what you are saying is that any attempt to preserve the past is inherently a betrayal of the future. That has ramifications for those who embrace the "original" U. S. Constitution.



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      • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 8 months ago
        Mike, I tend to think the questions go a bit deeper than things like the Constitution. In the evolution of the human species, Nature has been the controller to date and she's a cold hard bitch. Nature isn't purpose driven or influenced by the desires of either the successful or unsuccessful mutations, and works at her own pace with no regard for the constructive destruction of the antecedents except possibly to work from some basic architecture. But as our species has reached the point within the last 10,000 years at which we can influence, control with limits, and modify our environment which has been a prime decider in the mutation sweepstakes till now, we've begun to reduce the impact of natural evolution on our species.

        Is the logical next step to begin working around the pace, randomness, and narrowness of natural evolution and control (expand) our own evolution? Were the Galileo's, DaVinci's, Newton's, Maxwell's, Einstein's, US Founders' of the last 1,000 years (less than an eye blink in the time frame of Nature) freaks or representatives of Nature's evolution? What is our role, for good or bad, in controlling our own evolution? Who or What is the determiner or controller of the race's destiny as we take this next grand step?
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
          Zenphamy, any way in which one person or group stops another from acting can only be political. We may want that to protect rights. Beyond that, of course, are different questions - and the "beyond that" is very near. The original article by Ed Hudgins cited Leon Kass: “In perpetuation, we send forth not just the seed of our bodies, but also the bearer of our hopes… If our children are to flower, we need to sow them well and nurture them, cultivate them in rich and wholesome soil, clothe them in fine and decent opinions and mores, and direct them toward the highest light. ... If they are truly to flower, we must go to seed; we must wither and give ground.”

          Replying to this over on Rebirth of Reason, I said that I had to look up Leon Kass. Leon Richard Kass was one of President George W. Bush's science advisors. "...best known as proponent of liberal education via the "Great Books," as an opponent of human cloning, life extension and euthanasia, as a critic of certain areas of technological progress and embryo research..." -- Wikipedia. His is an old argument; and one perhaps not easily ignored. Enduring power - political, cultural, philosophical, ... ethos, Zeitgeist... - conserves itself, making change more difficult.

          In this case, in particular, not only did the government not fund the research, which is fine, but they made human cloning illegal. How would legal controls on the Internet affect the "Internt of things" when some of those "things" are parts of your body or adjuncts to your brain?

          3D printing makes body parts, from joints to tissues. Doctors and hospitals are regulated, but can the government prevent you from making these and installing them yourself? We have had robot surgery for about 30 years. Give yourself an anesthetic and run the program...

          As for the Einsteins, that is a result of our population explosion. People like that came along once every lifetime (maybe). Now the 25% smartest people in China are more people than are in the United States. But they need freedom to make the best use of that intelligence. That is why we know more of these people in the 15th century than in the previous 10 or 15 centuries.


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  • Posted by $ Commander 9 years, 8 months ago
    Have you bounced this off of "The Objectivists Ethics"?
    What might we base "values" upon if we have unlimited life, barring accident. My mind's eye envisions "Gort"....The Day the Earth Stood Still.
    I do like the mental masturbation though! lol!
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
      That is an excellent point, Commander, and one not addressed by Hudgins. Ayn Rand claimed that our mortality is the basis of morality. She asserted that an indestructible robot could have no morality because no choice would be consequential. That of course applies to God. Why should God be moral? The problem is that this reductio ad absurdum involves a l-o-n-g line of reductions. In other words, a new-born baby, being totally helpless has the most need for morality - and absolutely no way to understand or achieve it. Damn, that's harsh... But ok... So, the more powerful you become, the less moral you become? Automobiles, antibiotics, mathematics, they all incrementally remove ever more from us the need for morality? That just seems wrong.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 8 months ago
        "So, the more powerful you become, the less moral you become?"

        What if power is derived from morality - not independently from it? Then morality in and of itself becomes the pathway to power - not to mention the ultimate guide on how it is used. Food for thought.
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      • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
        Maybe your question: "Why should God be moral"
        is really: "Does God have the same morals he (might) expect us to have?"
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
          You do not understand the question because you seem not to understand the context. Commander opened the door to a cogent examination of the Objectivist ethics. Your question here (and the one below) show that you are not on the same page. It is like someone arguing whether "selfishness" is good or whether "capitalism" is just. Then demanding that we define our terms. We did, long ago; but you were not there for that. If you want to come up to speed, read _The Virtue of Selfishness_, especially the introductory essay, "The Objectivist Ethics." Rand defined what she meant and why; and we all pretty much accepted that. If you want to discuss this productively, you need to understand the context.
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          • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
            You're right--I missed the "cogent' examination of "Objectivist Ethics". Can you describe it in a nutshell?
            I studied Rand in High School. Extracurricularly, of course. My friends all leaned liberal.
            Anyway, perhaps you can give me a review. By the way, The question "Why should God be moral" relates to Objectivist Ethics how?
            Rand's code of ethics--as actions--were expressed as moral pragmatism. What does that mean to you, exactly?

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            • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
              Ayn Rand's theory of egoism, called the Objectivist Ethics, is opposed to pragmatism. If the last time you "studied" Ayn Rand was in high school, then you need to brush up because you seem to have forgotten significant facts.
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              • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
                Oh, and just one more thing, Mike--as Columbo would have said--you got the egoism (egotism in your case) part right--I might just call it hyperegotism.
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                Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
                You are way wrong--she designated her philosophy as "moral pragmatism." No wonder you don't understand her!
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                • Posted by IndianaGary 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Now, that sounds like a quote. Can you back it up by citing your source?
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                  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
                    What quote? Perhaps you would do well to read my new thread: "The Modern Witchdoctors"---
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                    • Posted by IndianaGary 9 years, 8 months ago
                      I'm still waiting for you to cite your source. If you can't then stop attributing the comment to Rand.
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                      • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
                        I just had an epiphany--I wonder if, in the 5 years that have elapsed since I spoke thus to BO--see previous post--he has tried to use Rand's moral pragmatism for his own idiotology, and that's why you are wondering why I have said it is an objectivist thought. There was an article in one of the uber intellectual mags on moral pragmatism, using it for socialist thought. I knew BO was behind it, but I didn't think anyone would take it as seriously being a socialist phenom!!. A word to the wary--BEWARE!!!
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                        • Posted by IndianaGary 9 years, 8 months ago
                          If, by BO you mean Barak Obama, he IS a Socialist. I don't see the connection between BO and your statement that Rand designated her philosophy as "moral pragmatism." As others have noted, "The Objectivist Ethics" in the Virtue of Selfishness would be a great chapter to review. The whole philosophy of pragmatism was anathema to Rand which is why I am skeptical about the attribution.
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                          • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
                            Do you see what BO has been doing? Perverting the principles of Objectivism in an attempt to give Socialism credence!
                            He asked me, in 2009, to espouse on morals, which I never do, by the way, so I read a few paragraphs from "For the New Intellectual".
                            See where he went with that?
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                      • -1
                        Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
                        This is a good opening for me to report that when I mentioned "moral pragmatism" to BO about 5 years ago now, in his odd little mind he interpreted as meaning only if it works is it moral.
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                      • -1
                        Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
                        Start with "For the New Intellectual--the Philosophy of Ayn Rand"--
                        (I had to reply to your comment on the general "Add Comment", by the way, we're running out of room here.
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            • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
              Carol,
              Rand's ethics are not based on "moral pragmatism. " As she wrote pragmatism can be amorphous not grounded in reason, yet hides behind it. This is a logical positivist argument and undermines the foundations for morality. You are perhaps confusing her with Hegel.
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      • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
        Before you question why God should be moral, perhaps you should define morality and morals---
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
          Again, as above, you do not understand the context. For anyone familiar with the works of Ayn Rand, those words are defined. Arguments do follow, but they begin with a basis of common understanding. It is not my preferred reading, but if you care to find _The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies_ you will find a lot of arguments against a lot of what Ayn Rand wrote. But they all assume prior knowledge of that set of works.

          Again, I refer you to "The Objectivist Ethics" in _The Virtue of Selfishness_.
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          • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
            I read AR, as I've said. I wouldn't say that I studied Rand. Perhaps as a philosophy it appealed to something I already had inside, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything she has said or written.
            Nor do I make Objectivism into a cult or Rand into a Saint. For one thing, she was not an economist.
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          • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
            Also, Mike, I may put you into the same category wherein I have slotted Buckley and Vidal: pretentious uber-intellectuals. Just because you espouse Objectivism doesn't clear you of pretentiousness!
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
      I photocopied "The Objectivist Ethics" to read it through and mark it up again with this challenge in mind. Did you see my PM to you about that? Your suggestion has ramifications.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
    I am still uncomfortable with the definition of what it actually is. When I research a little, I find different movements define it differently. To what definition of transhumanism do you make your opinion?
    MM posted this same article yesterday, which is what prompted my looking into it
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
      "Transhumanism in the Bible and the Second Coming of Jesus" -- it can mean anything, I guess... But for that, I would recommend just keeping to the narrow functional meaning expressed by Ed Hudgins in the Atlas Society essay. The first would be _directly_ modifying our DNA. Yes, every animal does that when the females choose the best competitor male; for humans, women marry good providers. But Transhumanism is beyond that. It is the DIRECT modification of our DNA, the DIRECT modification of our chemistry with materials not found in nature, even megavitamins. I just took 25000 IU of vitamin A. Do you have any idea how many carrots that represents? I can only imagine...
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    • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
      I've not looked into Transhumanism enough to know all of the different factions.

      I make my opinion on what I understand to be the common view of Transhumanism in general: that "man" is a phase which man is passing through.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 8 months ago
    Any attempt to limit my ability to attain immortality is murder - of me. I take the right to mine own life as a matter of paramount importance, and I will brook no argument that says that it is unethical for me to do this. I will control my genetic material as I see fit and am able to afford - there are genes I do not like in my body, and genes that do. If I decide to clone myself in the future, or have a genetically modified child, that is my business, and not the concern of anyone else.

    Technology has done more to feed people and eradicate disease than any well-intentioned charity program. If it is not crushed by political limitations, it will continue to do this: we are fully capable of feeding the billions, of providing electricity and education to everyone in the world. It is politics and people who think that they have the right to control others who are standing in the way of this - right now, and in the future.

    There is no compromise on my right to mine own body, longevity (if I can achieve it), or potential reproduction. If you feel that you have the right to do these things, then I have only one thing to say to you: Get out of my way.

    Jan
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago
    Regarding a future stage of life if there is such a thing, I will have lived a life worthy of entrance into that life. Whatever happens ... happens, and whatever doesn't happen was never meant to be.
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 8 months ago
    I have for years read this one and that one trying to refute the mind of Ayn Rand, and all fail. she was absolutely brilliant and the fact that AS has been the largest selling book in the world and the most influential speaks volumes for itself. all of these "critics" will continue to try and will fail. reading this book will only be a waste of time.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
      Wiggys, I certain agree about the brilliance of Ayn Rand; I also accept the premise of Transhumanism as described by Ed Hudgins of the Atlas Society. If you are answering something or someone else, then quoting and citing would help us all. As you said, "... all of these "critics" will continue to try and will fail." I assume that you did not mean Ed Hudgins but were referring to someone else.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 8 months ago
    The future of humanity is more complex than the transhumanists thinking. We have reached the point in our scientific development that we are the first species capable of what I call "self-determinant evolution". Succinctly, that phrase means we are no longer bound by natural law in the direction of our biological transformation.

    There are several paths this self-evolution might take: genetic engineering, with life extension only one of many options (enhanced sensory or physical capabilities as a possibility); bioengineering, with the ability to replace failed body components with superior organic components; cyborg enhancement, by the merging of human and robotic elements; possibly other paths that are outside the scope of my imagination.

    The social implications of any of these futures will be challenging, since some will resist such changes as unnatural. How does a society handle the situation where some are truly superior, yet still cling to the notion of equal rights?
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    • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 8 months ago
      observe that obesity and all ailments that come from it are on the rise because
      the youth of America is stagnating physically by choice. while my parents generation has increased life expectancy as is mine, I am 72, the generations following mine will see a lowing of life expectancy. as for replacing body parts we will need skilled doctors and obamacare is making that impossible. read "return of the primitive" by none other than AR. that is the direction we are going in.
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 8 months ago
        The paths to life extension will be expensive, and likely available only to an elite. That will create the most dramatic division in human society in its history, and sure to breed a violent rebellion. This is not going to end well.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
          I disagree, DrZ. In fact, history demonstrates that pretty much everything trickles down to the poor. I remember when we used to dress up to go on an airliner. My mother's generation dressed for travel on trains. Today's indigent unbilled hospital emergency room visits get treatment that H.G. Wells would have called "science fiction." (How about those plastic leg casts tightened with velcro strips?)

          I am a fan of public transportation, so I see the lower strata every day. I mean, looking out the window, I saw three guys I would call homeless in a ravine behind a strip mall tapping into someone's WiFi with a laptop. Elite? I doubt it...
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          • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 8 months ago
            How many poor do you see getting elective surgery, like cosmetic facelifts or tummy tucks? Life extension will not be seen as a necessary procedure. Treatments to aid in a healthy normal life are one thing, but performance enhancing or life extension procedures will be considered extraordinary for a long time.

            I could see performance enhancing medical procedures for military purposes, but I suspect that robotics will make that unnecessary. Advanced prosthetics or limb replacement (regrowth?) will be available to all to restore function, and genetic screening and in utero treatment for fetal disorders as well, but the fancier procedures will take a very long time to "trickle down", if at all. I still think the issue of life extension is a social bombshell.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
      Dr. Z, I must agree with your generalization: "The future of humanity is more complex than the transhumanists thinking." What is not more complex than the original thinking of the innovators?? Do you think that Edison or Ford or even Alduous Huxley foresaw 2014? That they did not and could not is not the point. The important action is opening the door. You do not know what lies beyond or where it will lead, but knolwledge is the key that unlocks the door to the future.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
    I note what Circuit Guy wrote (in the original topic thread):"When a new technology makes the death rate fall, the birth rate actually increases at first and then falls. Even though birth rate > the death rate, our production capabilities keep growing with population. If you educate all people, this problem will solve itself without state planning." He calls it "education" and that is correct, but the consequential factor is _culture_. Education changes the culture. New ideas improve the standard of living.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
    I probably fall into the Objectivist camp, but even then its fuzzy. One wonders what is the distinction between this and performance enhancing drugs. As long as they do not pose a major health concern, why are vitamin regimens and work-outs with technologically advanced machines ok but some steroid version is not? You aren't less human because you're missing a leg, why would you be less human with a 3 D printed bionic one? The six million dollar man (adjusted for inflation) will always be a hot MAN to me.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 8 months ago
      I agree, kh, and I think that this could be a different discussion. I do not know what standards could apply that justify the one "performance enhancement" but not the other. It is known that kids on campus get the drugs for combating ADHD so they can focus while studying. Would it not make more sense to just open up the market and let such things be developed openly and correctly. I mean, you should be able to put your finger in a reader and get the prescription that is right for you.

      Then, think of something obvious and common like speaking foreign languages. Only a few thousand years ago, most people had a hard time speaking one. Every language you learn increases your range and depth of thinking.
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
    Just looked up the definition of Transhumanism in Wikipedia. Didn't get too far before I had to ask "Who is to determine which are the "present limitations and miserable conditions" that are to be overcome?
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  • Posted by johnmahler 9 years, 8 months ago
    I like Science Fiction as much as any one else. Having an eye on the economy and political current events, I have little to credit the belief this prophesy will ever be realized. The aspiration of politicians is always more power over humans because machines don't vote, even intelligent machines because voting machines are routinely compromised. Long before such half breed machines could be built, the global economy will collapse increasing human dependence on government. Machine / humans would be all powerful and obviate the need for government dependency.
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
    My source for what, Indiana Gary? Moral Pragmatism? I'll have to go home and look it up in one of my books on Objectivism--or maybe you can peruse her writings, you seem to have overlooked it!
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
    The wikipedia article quoted Julian Huxley, something he wrote in 1957. After 50 years of the European subcontinent nearly destroying itself and a major portion of the world. It is no wonder he and others felt that the human race needed improvement, and a lot of improvement!!
    Europeans need to stop beating themselves up and work on trying to figure out just why what happened, happened. Wallowing in guilt isn't going to get you anywhere. And I'm pretty sure it is guilt in being human that is the motivation for transhumanism. I see a lot of good in people-not always at every point in time and space, of course.
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 8 months ago
    And just how are they to be overcome? What is to replace whatever it was we had to begin with? Who is to be the determinator--the eugenicist, the POTUS, who?
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