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So THAT'S how Tesla has survived...

Posted by  $  blarman 2 months, 3 weeks ago to Business
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I knew there had to be more than investor stupidity keeping Tesla alive for this long. Now we know: they've been selling so-called "green energy" credits on the global exchange - artificially providing investment capital to them while jacking up prices on the traditional automobile.
SOURCE URL: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-03/tesla-s-secret-source-of-cash-unmasked-as-gm-and-fiat-chrysler?cmpid=BBD060319_BIZ


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    Posted by freedomforall 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    So once again, the fedgov has meddled and looted the American people of $2 billion with regulations that no one wants or needs.
    Thanks, Obama.

    GM sells 3 million units per year in the US.
    FIAT-Chrysler sells about 2 million units per year in the US.
    2016 $302 mill in credits sold by Tesla
    2017 $360 mill in credits sold by Tesla
    2018 $420 mill in credits sold by Tesla

    Excellent posting blarman!
    C'mon Gulchers, give blarman some thumbs ups.
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  • Posted by mccannon01 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    So... Tesla. Isn't that the car that is "pollution free" until you plug it in?
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    • Posted by  $  exceller 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      Yeah,,

      Cortex said we need electric cars b/c you just plug them in and they don't need polluting gasoline to run on...
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      • Posted by  $  2 months, 3 weeks ago
        Ignoring the fact that most of the nation's energy needs are supplied by coal-fired power plants - including the electricity being used to power the Tesla. It's just blame shifting.
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        • Posted by TheOldMan 2 months, 2 weeks ago
          That used to be the case. A decade or so ago, coal provided about 50%, nuclear 20%, gas 20%, hydro + solar + wind the remaining. Today coal is down to about 25-30% with gas having taken up the slack.
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          • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 2 months, 2 weeks ago
            The rest of the world is finding out now just how worthless solar and wind is for generating electricity...I think England makes up the difference burning wood to make electricity.
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        • Posted by  $  exceller 2 months, 3 weeks ago
          Shifting the blame would require understanding what to shift.

          In her case, she had no idea how an electric car operates, let alone how the energy used for running it is made.

          Only one of the examples of the reality of ideas coming from the left.
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          • Posted by  $  2 months, 3 weeks ago
            As much as I'd like to credit her with sheer ignorance, I gave up being that charitable towards elected officials who mouth off all the time. Gross stupidity is willful ignorance and entirely unbecoming of an elected official who puts themselves in the spotlight continuously as she does.
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            • Posted by  $  exceller 2 months, 3 weeks ago
              I was thinking of why are they doing it, e.g. being ignorant, since it is glaringly obvious.

              I think it is because they concluded that the sheeple is ignorant and would never understand let alone back anything rational.

              That's why the left hates thinking people and relegate them to the corner of "Nazis", "racists", "Islamophobes", etc.
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        • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 2 months, 2 weeks ago
          Only a few understand just how environmentally Unfriendly electric cars are...not to mention, they need stop more for recharges than a gasoline car needs refilling.
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          • Posted by  $  2 months, 2 weeks ago
            Correct. Few understand how toxic the process is to create the batteries and the mining required for the rare-earth elements is generally carried out by companies who don't really care about the "save the Earth" crowd...
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  • Posted by  $  Dobrien 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    +1 Nice find Blair. Thanks for posting.
    Gore has made many millions trading RIN’s.
    The Evil ones of course steal and loot from a supposed good cause. Create problem loot from the solution.
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  • Posted by ohiocrossroads 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    Does anybody in the Gulch but me see the similarity to the Steel Unification Plan in AS? The automakers who produce Real Useful cars will be penalized and forced to give their money to a maker of cars whose only purpose is to allow their owners to show that They Care.
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  • Posted by jconne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    On the Tesla innovation front = not to be missed !!!

    See the YouTube video from the Autonomous Day announcements by Tesla about a month ago. It's about three years of development of an application-specific super chip and neural network system with tons of machine learning data from the fleet of about 1/2 million vehicles out there.

    The chip is named TSD, for Totally Self-Driving -- whatever "totally" means here - an aspiration?

    As someone who has been in the systems business for over 50 years, I found it super exciting. He has hired and supported innovation by some of the best young technical talent on Earth.
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  • Posted by jconne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    Yes to all the economic, environmental, and ethical/political comments.

    However, the other side of the coin aside from his fear mongering on CO2, fossil fuel and AI, is is brilliant product inspirationa, invention, and manufacturing innovation. That's what's driving the public interest and mine. He's the Thomas Edison of our age. He's delivering fully functional systems incrementally, driven by relentless innovation and experimentation. He's delivering. That's the bottom line emotionally and functionally for the culture.

    The electric car is a great idea from a physics perspective. The only risk is not having access to electricity. The positives include a much simpler and therefore more maintainable machine with amazing acceleration. Just consider his assertion of a million mile warranty on a vehicle. What's the value of getting even partially to that goal?. What's that worth to bettering your life as a car owner or renter?
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    • Posted by freedomforall 2 months, 2 weeks ago
      Was Edison supported by billions in taxpayer funding against our will? Musk is a looter. His fortune was extracted at gunpoint from our production.
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      • Posted by jconne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
        Not sure how he was supported. And that's a valid point. In this cronyism system he's operating in a different context. While there's no excuse for the subsidies forced upon us, the government launch contracts are often appropriate, or at least more appropriate - starting with national defense.
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    • Posted by  $  2 months, 2 weeks ago
      I'd love to see an actual study on maintenance costs of comparable cars in order to justify this assertion. Really all you're doing is trading out your engine (and arguably transmission) - the rest is still the same: brakes, suspension, etc. The one thing a lot of people like to cite is the cost of electricity vs cost of gasoline - which is a fair comparison - but they forget to add in the cost of replacing the batteries - which is a doozy of around $10,000 according to figures I've seen.
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      • Posted by jconne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
        Just do a thought experiment or talk to a mechanic. The powertrain is what needs constant attention including the mandated pollution control systems.
        Body, suspension, breaks... the breaks are used much less in an EV with regenerative braking. Moving parts are sources of wear - the more there are the more vulnerable the product is. Thus all the benefits of solid state electronics and memory over its predecessors.
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        • Posted by  $  2 months, 2 weeks ago
          The power train isn't all that different between an electric vehicle and a combustion engine - just minor differences in the transmission. You still have a drive shaft and gear box you have to deal with which move and wear. And regenerative braking doesn't replace disc brakes on your wheels. It's essentially an engine brake similar to those on big rigs or like a flywheel on smaller cars. The major sources of wear being replaced by batteries are primarily in the engine itself. You're still going to have to replace tires, brakes, etc. at a similar pace - unless someone can point me to something I'm not thinking of.

          Regarding electronics, yeah, they can be great at managing fuel efficiency. Or they can be like my co-worker's Leaf where the car doesn't run without all 20 main circuit boards - each of which costs $1000 to replace! Nothing like a basic carburetor-based hunk of steel you can fix with some bubble gum and bailing wire in a pinch...

          Yes, the mandated pollution control systems are an efficiency drain on a combustion engine which aren't needed on an electric vehicle. But how many times have you had to change out a muffler or catalytic converter? I never have even after putting more than 200,000 miles on three vehicles...

          Question: does anyone know the comparative weight of an engine vs the battery system replacement? I'm curious...
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  • Posted by term2 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    I thought that the demand for electric cars was overblown. Electric cars have a lot of disadvantages compared with gas powered cars. The government is just trying to force us into electric for some ulterior motive
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    • Posted by jconne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
      Ok. Please be specific about the disadvantages.

      The biggest losers will be the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vehicle manufacturers' loss of the billions invested in manufacturing facilities for ICE power trains all over the world.
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      • Posted by term2 2 months, 2 weeks ago
        Disadvantages: 1) Batteries can only provide 50% of their stated charge when cold (I assume that means like in the east and midwest during winder)
        2) What if you want to drive from vegas to los angeles- about 300 miles through the desert. Run out of charge and you are stuck if you cant find a charging station and then wait for awhile for a charge to be delivered.
        3) Use of A/C and heat will much more rapidly deplete charge from stated levels.
        5) Chevy Volt has a small engine to give you remote charging if you need it. Straight electric cars are ONLY electric.
        6) When the batteries GO, its like $8k to replace them.
        9) Not that Gasoline is not flammable, but Lithium batteries can spontaneously explode if damaged or overheated.

        Still want a current production electric car?
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      • Posted by jconne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
        Re some of the current disadvantages....
        - Good point about the Heat and A/C battery needs.
        - In any major technology innovation the supporting infrastructure takes time to roll out. Guess what it was like transitioning from the horse to the ICE vehicles. Trading horseshit for ... ;-)
        - I can envision a service of swappable batteries much as we do with gas grill small tanks. But that's another step of innovation and infrastructure buildout. Or a variant on that could be what we do with portable chargers for mobile devices. Swappable boost batteries to support the primary, built-in battery.
        - The flammability of Lithium batteries has been a area of well funded research and I've seen some Musk videos discussing how they mitigate that with their battery designs.
        - Re batteries needing replacement, the latest prediction by Musk is a 50% to 100% increase in lifespan for next-gen. Note tht for Musk, Nex-gen means being worked on now and for some prior years.
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        • Posted by  $  2 months, 2 weeks ago
          I'm certainly not going to argue that cars are better than dealing with horse manure. ;)

          I am interested in how they deal with the battery issues, however. Batteries of that size aren't cheap - even if they are replaceable. And they have a proscribed lifetime - currently only 3-5 years with degrading performance just like your cell phone. There have been huge strides - I completely agree. There may still be improvements to come but I'm evaluating based on what is in play right now.
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      • Posted by  $  2 months, 2 weeks ago
        Disadvantages of Electric Cars include:

        Range. On a full charge, most electric cars go about 1/2 the distance as a comparable gas-powered engine on the same vehicle. (This is particularly applicable to the trucking industry where range is business viability.)

        Recharge speed. Most electric cars can take up to six hours to fully recharge. A gas-powered engine can be refueled in five minutes.

        Recharging stations. These are few and hard to find. Gasoline pumps are ubiquitous.

        Battery replacement. These run about $10,000 and must take place about every four to five years. (The equivalent is about 100,000 miles on the same vehicle averaging $3 per gallon for gas and 30 mpg).

        ===================================================================================
        Advantages of Electric Cars include:

        Noise. Electric cars are comparatively silent. Most electric cars actually have to add noise so drivers feel comfortable in them.

        Acceleration. Electric cars accelerate faster than comparable gasoline engines.
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  • Posted by  $  Stormi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    Obama was the one pushing to give Tesla endless credits and bailouts. AOC is brain dead when it comes to any science. Plug everyone in and their electric bill goes sky high, the power grid goes down, and we are all under complete control by big gov.!That is the goal. Calif. allone would blow the grid in no time, they already need multiple sattes sending them electricity. This whole CO2 emission thing is a hoax for control by big gov. CO2 levels were higher during times before industry. Climate is controlled by the Sun, not Biden or AOC.
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  • Posted by chad 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    What a neat idea. Sell something that doesn't have to be manufactured, has not cost of goods on the accounting side and doesn't exist to someone who is willing to buy it instead of telling the government NO! Get subsidies from the government who will install your 'filling stations' for you and everyone can feel good about themselves while they rob their neighbors at the point of a gun. I want to sell something like this!
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    I'm sorry, I don't think I understand the whole thing.
    The regular car manufacturers (which make gas-using cars) need credits (from whom? the government?) to be allowed to sell their cars? So they buy the credits from Tesla (the electric car company) ? Why would they buy the credits from Tesla? If it's protection from government prosecution they want, why wouldn't (or couldn't) they buy these credits directly from the government? I can't drive anyway, having epilepsy, but this does seem to be a sort of political issue, which affects bus and cab fares, and I guess I would be better off if I understood it. But at present, I don't.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 2 months, 2 weeks ago
      The credits are "credited" by government (creating them from nothing, just as the fed and all banks do with fiat credit) to companies who supposedly generate less CO2. They are rigged to favor electric car companies by not recognizing the other sources of CO2 use that go into producing electric vehicles and ignoring the cost of batteries. (They also are ignoring that the electric car owners are not paying their share of fuel tax that is supposedly used to maintain roads.)
      It's a typical statist, neo-liberal government scam to screw the people and enrich the elitists' friends.
      As to why government doesn't sell them? My guess is that government doesn't qualify to "earn" any of them.
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  • Posted by  $  exceller 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    Thanks for the earthshaking info, Blair.

    I never trusted Musk but Wall Street backed him no matter how imbecilic he came across, especially recently.

    He is of the same caliber as Al Gore. Selling fiction.

    There always will be buyers.
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    • Posted by jconne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
      Comparing Gore to Musk is terribly unfair. Gore is a politician who has designed, built and delivered nothing but influence and legislation.

      Musk is a physicist, software engineer, entrepreneur, leader of innovation and manufacturing teams.

      He never came across as imbecilic to me. His style is unique and quirky and quite transparent in his communication - including admitting his sometimes delusional timelines. That can be more smart than anything to drive to objective goals.
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    • Posted by jconne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
      Comparing Gore to Musk is terribly unfair. Gore is a politician who has designed, built and delivered nothing but influence and legislation.

      Musk is a physicist, software engineer, entrepreneur, leader of innovation and manufacturing teams.

      He never came across as imbecilic to me. His style is unique and quirky and quite transparent in his communication - including admitting his sometimes delusional timelines. That can be more smart than anything – to drive to objective goals.
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      • Posted by jconne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
        "he never struck me as a serious man"

        How could he not be and accomplish all he has?
        I love watching his promo videos. It always raises my spirits, even if I'm judging his content as foolish or manipulative - thanks to his transparency.

        Edit - I think you may be confusing his informal but thoughtful style while sometimes making smart ass remarks. He always comes across to me as meaning what he says. His ideas on AI (a misnomer that should be Augmented Intelligence - as there's no artificial intelligence)... are bizarre, especially his call for a government regulatory body for it. That's a sure way to stifle innovation and get all the benefits of a government monopoly.
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      • Posted by  $  exceller 2 months, 2 weeks ago
        Fair comment.

        I agree that Gore never produced anything.

        Reason I mentioned them in the same breath is that Gore was with Kleiner Perkins in SF, the VC firm that was one of the investors in Tesla.

        Gore made millions. Being associated with Tesla was good politics for him: no-emission cars! Right in line with his "global warming" agenda.

        Musk is quirky, as you said, but he never struck me as a serious man. This is my opinion. I am not an investor in Tesla and have no intention to be one.
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    • Posted by TheOldMan 2 months, 2 weeks ago
      And there will always be sellers...of uncovered call options all the way down :-) Never had the courage to do real short selling but short-term naked calls have been a steady boost for me.
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