Okay, I will. My brother's death was December 25th 1985. He was a cross country truck driver, having marital problems after being robbed a few times on the road. Dad died Sept 1994 while on vacation in Las Vegas pulling handles at age 82. His pockets were bulging full of quarters. Mom called to tell me he died and in tears she asked if she had to claim his winnings on her income tax. That made me cry and laugh at the same time. Thank goodness the whole family has People's Memorial Association, they took care of everything and delivered dad home to Seattle in a small box to mom's door. Mom died in 2000.

JB, my work involves the dead and I see suicide notes (and more) a couple of times a week.
I usually have cast-iron guts but a final letter from some months ago struck me as a beautifully written and logically argued piece that fully resonated as 'live for the sake of no other person"
He was in his 30s, well- read and travelled and no illness of any sort.
That young man was in control of his death.
I wanted to post his letter here - he was expressing my view of my life - just he had chosen a different outcome.
Obviously it would have been very wrong to post it.
I have often posited to myself that Galt's creed supports self-determination to the point of organising one's death.
Don't get me wrong - i have zero intention of suiciding. I strongly say it is a valid decision but Galt starts with 'by my life and my love of it.
And would you want your workmates to see you in the nuddy? LOL

Sorry neal. I think you should talk about it.

My father is bi -polar. Of course in tbe early days he was diagnosed as a manic. I 'm not sure manic depressive is a current term used? Most people are hidden from the lows. They are so bad, there is usually a co -dependence role happening in order for survival. When they are at the other end it is also hell. I call that "super happy." You long for the middle and you rarely get glimpses of it. Drugs are marginal. The disease is hugely physical but of course takes a mental toll on the patient. Everyone close to them is hugely affected. Anyway, he wasn 't going on talk shows in his despair cycle. Trust me

About 8 years ago I saw him on the Fergus show, he did some funny stuff, but looked really tired and as if he had lost a friend recently. He looked like he had just come from an internment service.That was a memorable time, but there were others. Once I saw him with Dick Cavette. They were in a one ups-manship contest of depressive comments. The audience laughed, kind of like they were sympathetic instead of entertained. Later I learned Dick Cavette was a depressive. I don't know if he is still living. I am so glad I am only a recovering alcoholic. I don't quite fit in at AA either because I was a happy drunk who just couldn't stop once I got started. The 4th and 8th step are really buggers because all the people I could have offended are dead. I am near 70 years of age and almost everyone is younger than I. I am a loner, so don't have any friends to offend. Maybe here? LOL

Brenner:
Brilliant! It is one of those moments that, if you haven't lived it, you are not and never will be able to understand. That CAN be understood.

You suggest that a person should live for the sake of another man - a definite "no" for Objectivists. and further - what if there IS no one who loves you and cares about you?

I live with a bi-polar mate. She could be Robin #2 in her high moods. In her low moods, the only thing she didn't try was suicide. I thought for years he was bi-polar based on the few times I saw him on stage performing and once in a while on talk shows when he was down. I think the human side of his personality was soft focus depression. Patch Adams was the closest to his personality type I've ever seen.

True, remembering that persistent thoughts driven by certain mental habits can create chemical imbalances.

Is the epinephrine count causing paranoia or is the paranoia creating the higher epinephrine count? We don't have the means to be sure without further study.

Suicide is a nasty thing. My brother did it at age 39 in his living room with a pistol to his head. After I told my dad he said, you're not supposed to outlive your kids, and not another word was ever spoken about it after that day. I still get ill feelings about it every Christmas day.

I agree. That is why someone with high intelligence and acute perception who sees the world as illogical and irrational would not have any.

Suicide is often due to mental disease. In the case of Robin Williams, I think he was bipolar and suffered from deep clinical depression. Some believe it is due to imbalance in the neurotransmitters. I doubt the victims have much philosophy behind their decision to take their own lives. I think they are merely seeking to end the psychological pain they are suffering. I have known a couple suicides who were resuscitated. They all said the pain of death was nothing as price to pay for relief from the pain they were suffering. How they arrive at this conclusion, I don't know. No one survives suicide to testify to its pain relieving properties. A couple of them tried again and succeeded. The cases who survived didn't try again. I don't know about why that is either. I asked one of them how death promised relief. He said he didn't know, but that it was instinctual. He just knew it would work; he expected annihilation.

Our lives are constrained and our choices limited by all the conditions surrounding us--family, friends, and most of all government. How we exit this world is the last outpost of self-ownership and sovereignty in the face of the demands of others; the last assertion of free will.

Robin Williams did not appear to be terminally ill, waiting to be tortured to death in a hospital bed. He leaves a legacy of a full life of cinematic achievements. It is not for us to judge whether his exit was irrational or rooted in hopelessness. It is enough to accept that it was his right and his last act of doing it his way when to ring down the curtain.

Gayle Wynand in The Fountainhead committed suicide when he realized that his whole life had been a sham. Makes for good drama, but the character in real life would have been wrong. He still had the ability to achieve great things but he gave up on himself. Then, of course, there's the issue of being incapacitated and under great pain, with death an ongoing companion. That may be the only good reason for suicide. In the rollercoaster we call life, many of us reach a dead end (Pun intended) where there seems to be no way out. But by the mere act of persevering, somehow we find ourselves back on the upswing. Unlike a rollercoaster, however, if you give up at the bottom, you will stay there. Depression can be overcome unless it's a chemical imbalance which sometimes can be helped by drugs. I think ennui and apathy have more to do with suicide than most people will admit.

Suicide is a personal, truly selfish choice. There could be a potentially rational reason for choosing to commit suicide: for example, if one is dying from a terminal disease and medical costs are through the roof, one might rationally choose to kill himself rather than lose his life savings (which he might have intended for his progeny) for only painfully prolonging a life that is doomed anyway. Especially if this person has already led a long, full life. I know I would choose that path. Also I would rather kill myself than be a perpetual burden on my loved ones. What is so wrong about that? (Religious convictions aside, of course.)

As far as experiencing severe chemical imbalances so as to render one incapable of clean rational thought--and to be lodged in unbearable torment--suicide does seem to present itself as a "logical response to an illogical (state of being.)"

Also, if one were subjected to lifelong slavery or even a life sentence in jail, suicide would seem to present a more reasonable alternative with greater dignity than living in lifelong torment or confinement. I firmly hold that "quality of life" takes priority to "quantity of life."

oooooohhh, Mimi, I beg to disagree! people have
gone to great lengths to handle excessive stimuli,
or illogical ones like The End....... take religion,
for example. Faith. we shield ourselves from the
most awful imaginable thing by learning that life --
of another sort -- continues. and there is love for
kids -- we view them as ourselves living on,,,,,,,
and there is art -- a way to pass into eternity by
dint of our talent, or fame, or infamy if it is negative.

for me, the last male of my name, tears come most
easily when I lament having no kids. but I have
lived well and loved well and been good to people,
so I can go to sleep saying "if I die before I wake"
with a good conscience. maybe heaven -- it's
OK; let go of the excessive stimuli and sleep.

I snap every night. feels good. and I drank too much
for a period. stopped, by will, overnight. my wife
and the doctor are still puzzled. IQ is not always a
blessing, but sometimes........
and I do not mean to belittle anyone who cannot
handle the stimuli;;; I do my best to love them into
staying around for awhile, like the man in our spare
bedroom at the moment. -- j

I love this.

Yes.