Collective subjectivism is not objectivity. Selecting aspects of multiple mythologies and interpreting them to rationalize a case for someone's bizarre speculations contrary to known facts and possibility is not science.

There were no "ancients" who were a "people that was literally tens of millions of years more advanced than us" as Vogt claims. It is all nonsense. It is not a "Lot closer to reality than anything we have been taught." Please take your subjectivist anti-science somewhere else. It is not science. You have no background in science and don't know what you are talking about. Promoting this BS does not belong on a forum for Ayn Rand.

Ah, but 64 different cultures spread around the world, having identical or similar legends?...that's when one Has to go, Hmmm

As far as Vogt goes, his theory about what was discovered in 1958 and since is a Lot closer to reality than anything we have been taught.

We really need government to tell us what they know cause much of the bull crap we have been fed doesn't match what some have found.

I know you guys think everything the ancients pass on to us is just made up stuff. They had not the means nor the motive to make up stuff and some of it is really detailed. So one should be willing to admit there are Big Questions here to be asked.

If he meant just some destruction on the surface he should have said so but wrote destruction of the earth'. That is not as bad as those who now speak harming destroying the Earth by bad actions of humans or of those who categorize h humans into whites blacks, browns, reds, and yellows or that God is the source of morality or that one can find morality by finding something that appears to be altruistic be behavior among other animals or even plants or those who are pro live and those who are pro choice. There have been many local destructions by non sun means, mainly earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, fires, flooding of coastal settlements do to the 300 feet or more rise in the seas during the Holocene interglacial from the from the end of the last large glaciation, etc. Plenty of earthly means to produce legends among ignorant ancient peoples. Remember they are legends and myths which may or may not have any scientific value other than in the study of myths and legends. One looks for some corroborative evidence for the legend and does not just speculate as to its meaning. For example, the Bibles all report miraculous events which those of each religion pretend to know the causes to be from some supernatural being or spirit or consciousness. Many read the Bible and believe that it was not written by men but was the direct production from God. That happened to me in a Jury room where the two men next to me were discussing the bible. I mentioned that it was written by men. The top expert there tried to defend his view by mentioning what had happened during the the swearing in where I had to make a spectacle of myself by indicating that I wanted a secular oath rather than the religious one. He acted as though he had won some argument. Although the man most likely had far more knowledge than the myth and legend makers, he could not overcome his primitive belief in the Bible which contains some myth with a little fact mixed in with no way to tell which is which without checking with knowledge gained over the last thousands of years. I had an advantage in that my parents never taught we kids religious beliefs, just good morals by some stories and by example.
As far as I can see, Vogt has very little scientific and factual knowledge about objective reality.
It is interesting how those who believe religiously, reinterpret statements to fit their beliefs. 'Red giant' means that the star was very much larger than it is. It does not mean that the star had just a reddish appearance, which it would have had if viewed though lots of certain kinds of particles in the atmosphere. It would not look like a giant star such as a red giant star which would engulf the whole earth.
There is no evidence for a star by itself producing a micro-nova. The only one which had a micro-nova which has been determined to be of any size turned out to be a binary system with matter flowing from one to the other where build up excessively on the surface where sudden nuclear fusion takes place. The red looking star is the same as seeing the sun at the horizon as large, optical illusion, and red when large amount of particulate matter is in the atmosphere.

He is talking about plant, animal and human life with a few survivors and it is the things civilizations have built and created that is pretty much destroyed and or buried.
I would of thought that was pretty obvious.

No the sun doesn't become a giant red star but because of all the micro debris it appears red until all is finally cleared up. It's the same thing science has witnessed looking at other stars that have undergone a micro nova.

Just a couple of non-objective things from part 11.
Apparently he has no idea what he writes about.
But who cares about definitions, they just get in the way of a fantastic unproved hypothesis let alone proving it to make a theory.

Destruction means ruined beyond repair. You cannot have a destroyed Earth and still live on the Earth.
The Sun is not a red giant star, it is a main sequence star, i.e.,a yellow dwarf star which is nothing like a red giant star.

Repent! The End is Near! Save yourself by Hope, watching the sun, spamming, and following Vogt and Carl! Send more money to Mark Hamilton and his Nigerian spam ring!

And all of this affront to reason is a complex develop-mental situation.
For millenia we've enjoined in cyclical patterns of conflicting beliefs. This is so evident in observation of daily encounter and in exploring our cultural histories. Only recently have "we", in scientific, methodological manner begun to identify trends and tendencies in learning and human perceptions.....quantifying. Reading Holt, and having my youngest employee express the 4th suicide in his peer group, of approximately 25, within 5 years,prompted me to the actuarials of suicide, ADD, ADHD, Aspergers....a plethera of developmental disorders.

The swing upward appears to begin with the relegation of child care to outside sources, because we need more income to support our "programmed dream" of conspicuous consumption beacause the TV says we "need" to keep ......etc.

By your expressions here I know you have the ability to extrapolate. I must away. I'm being pushed by circumstance of my creation. Moving domicile 9 months ahead of plan, closing a business of 30 years. beginning new exploration into authorship beyond Rand's "Objectivist's Ethics".
It's all because I care about Humanity. The rarest form of life this planet has developed so far. I'll practice, to the best of my abilities to not enjoin in rhetoric without having some sort of solution based expression.

I have greatly appreciated our exchange.

These works have been sitting on my shelf for 20+ years. I read them synchronously, chapter by chapter, only one week past. Last Tuesday, interacting with my two employees, I noticed, "text book model" resistance to learning, problem solving in each.....
The following day the younger showed how manipulative he could be in getting me to lead him to the answer of another situation.....and then he "sabotaged?" another project by putting on an opposite feature to a part he was making.....cost me a $400 sale due to delay.
Still valid? I'll say yes. Holt's observations coincide with Morris Massey's lecture on values development in his video "What You Are Is Where You Were When"
I was exposed to these concepts starting at 7 years of age through 13. Dad was a maverick when it came to teaching status-quo methodology. He spent 37 years regularly getting ejected from inflexible "education" systems because he taught enthusiasm for learning rather than the "structure" that was expected.
This Vogt fella is the perfect tool of conflict creation for those who seek power and control. Look at what it's done in this environment......

These are the things that compelled me to look at my "programming" as I grew up. I've spent the last decade questioning every facet, that comes to mind, on how my values were developed and influenced.
The real kicker was the Objectivis't Ethics. I've found no holes in this authorship. I have found some things that will augment. Ayn did not express the emotional quotient to enjoin learning. The Joy of just being alive. And so I begin the endeavor of authorship. I'm closing down my vocation of machine shop, manufacturing and stepping into a great unknown. Because I care deeply for myself and extend this care, even to poor souls that are misguided toward this cliff of socialistic behavior.

I've always been an educator.....time to thrive.

LMAO...you crack me up...SNL material you spout.

I'm beginning to understand why so few survive these events...maybe that's a good thing after all.

I read both of those books by John Holt. Very nicely written, understandable and convincing. I expect they are still valid.
Would not be acceptable to today's marxist chatterers who control education.

Why am I reading this ... ? .. I suppose it is good when it stops.
A question while I am here-
what about the mythologies of societies that were not included in the coverage?
and 'the sun stopped in the sky'
Now there may have been times when I could have said 'did the earth move / or stop / for you?
Literary metaphors have their place.

I do have a theory of existence which old male racist it may be uses the conservation of angular momentum. With that the kind of power needed to reverse the spin of planet earth if applied would not leave any evidence of anything on the surface.

Velikovsky! I read in the fifties! Worlds in Collision, too boring for science fiction. Thousands of references that do not refer nor support statements, etc.
The Statesman- a socialist weekly in the UK, quite dour when I read it.
von Dainiken- if you like that sort of thing. No need to report back.

The "skinny" is that such vigilant fears are best kept in silence safely hidden under the bed along with Vogt's "science" finding the "exact date encoded in the Torah". Continuing to sound the alarm that The End is Near will only incur the wrath of your Quantum Nephlimphlams who will come for you. Keeping an eye on the sun will not help you. They come at night.

I see that there are new editions of Holt's books on education that seem worth looking into.

But whatever the psychological problems and the general state of education of a fruitcake like Vogt, his crackpot theories and the few who follow them are primarily a philosophical return to unreason: Vogt seems to have had a normal education at the university level, though he is a dedicated charlatan uneducated in science.

There are occasional Creationist activists that crop up who have more of a science background than he does. (See for example Nelkin's The Creation Controversy: Science or Scripture in the Schools.) The bizarre versions of "science" on behalf of religious myths cannot be entirely attributed to a failed education.

The doddering old fools like Vogt are not important. There are always such fruitcakes lurking in the shadows, and they are safely ignored. The difference now is that anyone can publish on the internet -- and they do.

Far more important than Vogt are the instances of anti-reason in the general culture and its anti-science consequences, partially encouraged by bad philosophy within science itself.

Ordinarily when you happen to see something like Vogt's concoctions you laugh at it and dismiss it. More annoying here is that the pollution on this forum is amplified, tolerated, promoted and followed on a forum that is represented as for Ayn Rand's ideas of reason, which the dominant crackpots verbosely infesting the forum have no interest in and are oblivious to, just as they are oblivious to serious scientific thought.

"even then listening to someone talk is much slower than reading."
You can try clicking on the setting sprocket on the video and then going to Speed - 2x. The audio sounds weird, but I seem to be able to follow most talks at that speed, allowing me to absorb audio as fast as reading. I use different speeds depending on the content and if I'm trying to do something else while listening.

Please stop spamming this forum with your repetitive, multiple posts promoting religious mythologies. It does not belong here. Do you not understand that this is a form for Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason? You can believe whatever you want but take it somewhere else.

The varying magnetic field does not cause the earth to stop rotating as this clown claims.

Medicare and a supplemental would have paid for it but I agreed to have them insert a special leans in place of what will be taken out.
Hopefully, I will never have to wear glasses for the rest of my life or else just wear reading glasses.
It's nice to have inherited some money!
Let's see, I had to get glasses for my student driver permit at age 15. 72-15=I've worn glasses (contact lenses for a few years during my twenties) for 57 years of my life.

Chapter Conclusion

We have covered the mythologies of 64 different societies and tribes throughout the entire world. All of them say that at one time there was a great deluge. On this point there is no exception. Ten of these societies specifically said that the sun rose in the west and set in the east. Other societies amplified this point by saying that the sun stopped in the sky. These two points alone prove our theory that the earth changes rotation at the end of each cycle. In the past, archeologiest and scientists were not able to understand why societies all over the world mentioned this unusual phenome­non. This is because scientists had an inaccurate view of existence. With our theory of existence, we must conclude that modem man should take many of these ancient tales of the cataclysm literally. We will go so far as to say that our theory of existence is the only one that does make sense of all these cataclysm legends. Many archeologists like to think that these legends are nothing more than the product of the vivid imaginations of our ancestors, but there are two big problems with that theory. One: what would be the motive of all these primitive people in telling the same lie? We see no logical motive for over 64 societies scattered throughout the world, which had no way of communicating with each other, to tell the same lie!

The second important reason is that many of the ancient arche­ological finds, such as the massive stone cities found in the moun­tains of Peru, the huge tunnel systems found in Ecuador, pyramids found all over the world, and the wide stone streets found in the Carribean off the island of Bimini, all prove there was a highly advanced civilization on the planet. We must be able to explain these massive construction projects with some kind of motive. We see no other motive for the construction of caves and pyramids or cities on top of mountains other than as shelters from a cataclysm that struck the earth. Over half of these societies specifically men­tion the sun as causing the conflagration on the earth and also the sun being associated with the flood. To put it very plainly, the evidence is literally overwhelming that such a cataclysm occurred approximately 12,000 years ago; but, also, the causes of this cataclysm are exactly what we theorize. []

And another interesting section; that of Plato and ancient Greece:

“The Statesman,” believes that these cataclysms are caused by the earth reversing its motion.

“There was a time when God directed the revolutions of the world, but at the completion of a certain cycle he let go; and the world, by a necessity of its nature, turned back, and went round the other way. For divine things alone are unchangeable, but the earth and heavens, al­though endowed with many glories, have a body, and are therefore liable to perturbation. In the case of the world, the perturbation is very slight, and amounts only to a reversal of motion.... But the truth is, that there are two cycles of the world, and in one of them it is governed by an immediate Providence, and receives life and immortality, and in the other is let go again, and has a reverse action during infinite ages. This new action is spontaneous, and is due to exquisite perfection of balance, to the vast size of the universe, and to the smallness of the pivot upon which it turns. All changes in the heaven affect the animal world, and this being the greatest of them, is most destructive to men and animals. At the beginning of the cycle before our own very few of them had survived; and on these a mighty change passed.” (42-p435)

Plato, we believe, reached this conclusion after himself research­ing the many ancient records of his day, which we do not have at our disposal today. From his ancient records, he had correctly concluded that some of the cataclysm was caused by the earth changing its rotation. The pivot to which Plato was referring, we believe to be the time of the reversal. When the information that makes up the magnetic field changes polarity and crosses the imag­inary X axis, we believe that the information, from which Plato derived this conclusion, came from a previous, more advanced civilization that inhabited the planet. This will be further expound­ed upon in the mythologies of Egypt. Previous to our theory of existence, no philosopher or scientist would take seriously Plato’s contention that the earth reversed its motion; but with our Theory of Multidimensional Reality, it is but an obvious calculable con­clusion to the theory of magnetism. We again see Plato referring to the sun rising in the west in the Atreus myth. The Greek philoso­pher, Censorinus, called these periods of cataclysms, the supreme year. The supreme year marked the close and the beginning of a new world age. The Greek word, ‘kataklysmos,’ is associated with the supreme year; and it means a great winter, or what we would call the ice age. Another Greek word, ‘ekpyrosis,’ also associated with the supreme year, means combustion of the world. (3-p4l)

408

In Plato’s dialogue, “The Republic,” he tells us that the great year occurs every 36,000 years. (41-pl94) We can easily see that 36,000 is a product of 3 x 12,000. Evidently, some of the source material that Plato relied on was not totally complete. They knew that the time between the cataclysms had something to do with the number 12,000, but did not know exactly what it meant. Plato’s timetable is a little different from that of the Greek philoso­pher, Heraclitus (540 B.C. to 475 B.C.). Heraclitus believed that the world was destroyed by a conflagration every 10,800 years. This number is exactly like the Hindu legend, but he might have picked up the idea from them. (3-p4l)

Again we see from the Greek legends, ample proof and historical evidence that a cataclysm occurred on the planet at the same time the sun novaed and baked one-half of the earth. The deluge and the ice age are also well covered in these Greek mythologies.

Yes...good thing you are not a fly!

Hope the surgery goes well Dino, keep us abreast.

Legends of the Eskimos:

We start with the legends of the Eskimos who live in the northern­most regions of the North American continent. The legends of the Eskimos are not as concerned with the creation of the earth as are those of many of the other North American Indian tribes but there is a legend about what will happen on the earth when the cycle begins again.

“In the course of time the waters will overwhelm the land, purify it of the blood of the dead, melt the icebergs, and wash away the steep rocks. A wind will then drive off the waters, and the new land will be peopled by reindeers and young seals. Then will He above blow once on the bones of the men and twice on those of the women, whereupon they will at once start into life, and lead thereafter a joyous existence.” (10-p303)

What is interesting about this mythology is what it implies. Not only does it tell us that the Eskimos also know that a tremendous heat melted the polar ice caps and a flood swept over the earth, but it implies that some of their ancestors did survive the last ice age, even though we might think that they were all buried under thousands of feet of snow and ice. Somehow a few of their fore­fathers survived the last great cataclysm.

Last mentioned point from the South American legends: The last point we wish to make in this section on the mythol­ogies of Central America is to see if there is any evidence that be­for the last cataclysm the earth rotated from East to West. This would mean that the sun would rise in the West and set in the East. It was mentioned in some of the previous legends that the sun had stopped somewhere over the eastern horizon. This would imply that the earth’s rotation had indeed stopped just before the flood and fire descended on the earth. There is one legend from

342

the Teotl Lixco Indians of Mexico which says that the sun moved toward the East, “traveling toward the East and the disappearance in the East.” (3-pll9) After the sun had stopped, they say the earth was visited by upheavals and earthquakes.

Continuing:

We would expect that the story of the event would be slightly

328

different in each part of the world because on one side of the earth, the sun literally cooked the earth while the people on the other side of the earth would only have noticed that the sun “went out” for a long period of time. During this time there great floods, torrential downpours. In the northern latitudes we would expect to hear stories of extremely long, cold winters. Some of the points of similarity for which we are looking in these mythologies are: Stories of strong winds; earthquakes; land masses rising and falling; the sun changing color; lightning; the sun standing still; fire coming from the sky and melting the surface of the earth; dust and debris falling upon the earth; a great flood; the oceans and rivers drying up; the sun going out; and, finally, a period of a long cold spell accompanied by torrential rains, snow and hail.

The first mythologies we cover are from Central America. We theorize that the eastern part of the American continent was ex­posed to the nova; therefore we would expect to hear many myth­ologies describing widespread conflagration.

Continue reading Here, if you like: http://www.vectorpub.com/CH11.htm

Next:

Velikovsky’s theory was that the planet,( Venus had passed dangerously close to the earth at some time in the past. If a planet is the actual cause of these polar reversals and ice ages, then either Venus or another planet has been passing this earth in that manner for the past billion years. If we consider the sophisticated tele­scopes in use today, astronomers would certainly have noticed any planet having an orbit that would come in proximity to the earth.

Donnelly’s theory was that the earth had collided with a comet thousands of years ago; and this comet was responsible for the destruction of Atlantis. But he cannot explain the hundreds of polar reversals and ice ages that occurred in the past. His idea of a comet hitting the earth could explain some of the other phenom­ena mentioned in the mythologies, but it cannot explain scien­tifically how the polar reversals occurred, especially repeatedly. Neither theory can explain why many mythologies specifically mention that the sun sent fire down to the earth. Both men felt that this mythological description was not to be taken literally, even though they themselves took the rest of these mythologies literally. Being bound to old scientific theories of what the sun is and how it functions, neither man could accept that the sun had novaed in the past. They thought that if the sun had somehow exploded, it would have caused too much heat, thus totally de­stroying the earth.

Because the sun is not a solid mass, the only part that reaches the earth is the gaseous outer shell of the sun.

In this section, we will present pertinent mythologies from all over the world and of every major civilization. The descriptions of some civilizations are quite explicit, which is usually due to that civilization’s having mastered writing and other forms of commun­ication-and thus a more accurate chronicle of the event was handed down over the thousands of years. More primitive civiliza­tions remembered the cataclysm, but they associated it with animal or human characteristics. This may have been because the event occurred about 12,000 years ago, and the descendants of the survivors probably had a difficult time understanding the literal description of what had happened; so they distorted the descrip­tion of the event to fit their limited frames of reference for ease of understanding.

First paragraph:

Mythologies of the World



Many mythologies have a definite basis in truth. In many ancient mythologies there is a recurring theme of a past destruction of the earth; we have found this theme in every major civilization of the world. The events may be described in slightly different order or in slightly different terms, but the main idea remains the same.

We were not the first to notice these similarities; at least two earlier scholars also noticed the same similarity. They were Ignatius Donnelly and Immanuel Velikovsky. Both attempted to explain what terrible worldwide event inspired these civilizations to tell about them in their mythologies for thousands of years. Both men felt that the cataclysm which occurred was caused by a comet or a planet coming very close to or hitting the earth. Both theories have major flaws in them. One flaw is that the magnetic field of the earth could not have reversed itself even if hit by a comet or planet to prove the point, take a bar magnet and pound it as long A you want-its north and south poles will not reverse themselves. The magnet will get weaker, but that’s all. Another error in their logic is that ice ages and polar reversals occurred many times on the planet and the time intervals between these events are equal.