Somebody thinks bitcoin is a store of value

Posted by lagged 1 year, 2 months ago to Economics
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Maybe when compared to a fiat currency that's inflating at 1,000,000% per year.

Otherwise...
SOURCE URL: https://banyanhill.com/bitcoin-solution-global-currency-devaluation/


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  • Posted by MinorLiberator 1 year, 2 months ago
    It may be many things, but one thing it’s NOT is money. I’ve been studying Economics for almost 50 years, specializing in monetary Economics. Bitcoin fulfills almost no criteria of real money, such as gold.

    As I am also a techie geek, I think blockchain technology is a beautiful thing, and has many valuable uses. But money is not one of them. Bitcoin is simply not REAL. To say that it “as good as” fiat money is hardly an argument.

    True, some people use it as a medium of exchange, but that’s their risk. A risk IMO that’s a losing proposition for all but the luckiest of speculators. Simply look at its volatility and tell me it’s a “store of value”.
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    • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
      Excellent post. But in my opinion your vision on the technology side is short sighted. It is a technology that on the good side has limited possibilities but on the side of evil could be unlimited.

      It is not a joke, it's a fatality waiting to happen even in it's present form which you have amply stated.

      Gold has always been accepted as a store of value but that is no longer really true. Today gold is just another tool of manipulation evident by it's seemingly lackluster performance by manipulation. For gold to be what it once was would require a renewal of it's value and ownership.
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  • Posted by term2 1 year, 2 months ago
    Bitcoin is a fiat currency based on a few clicks on a computer keyboard. There is nothing behind it, except perhaps a way to avoid governmental meddling.
    I wonder why someone doesnt make a competing currency that IS backed by gold. I suppose it would be deemed illegal in some way if it isnt already.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 1 year, 2 months ago
    Meanwhile gold and silver are at their lowest points in years, ostensibly because of the "strength" of the USD.
    I can understand how the USD under Trump is strengthening against other fiat currencies but against gold and silver I suspect manipulation. The financial condition of the US balance sheet is as bad as it has ever been in history except perhaps after the revolution or mid civil war.
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    • Posted by term2 1 year, 2 months ago
      The US dollar isnt a store of value at all. Its just paper with nothing behind it. In a way, its just another commodity which exists as a medium of exchange mandated by our government. All governments print money, and so does ours. I suppose in a way the relative value of currencies depends on how much each one is inflated through printing.

      I think gold and silver have not done well because they are antiquated mediums of exchange and dont fit into our neat internet based financial systems. Also, the government doesnt want them used, as they cant be manipulated easily by typing in a few characters on a keyboard.

      So they make increases in gold and silver values subject to capital gains. When the crap really hits the fan, they will make them illegal to possess as was done in the 30's . As I remember, you had to sell your metals to the government at a low price, who then revalued gold much higher, depriving the owners of the real reason for having it in the first place.

      The chickens will come home to roost. Gold used to be $40 an ounce, then moved to $400, and is hovering at $1200-1300 now. Not a bad store of value in any case.
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    • Posted by mshupe 1 year, 2 months ago
      Lowest point in years? It's never a good idea to cherry pick a time frame to justify an economic opinion. The rising dollar has more to do with rising interest rates than Trump.
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    • Posted by  $  DeangalvinFL 1 year, 2 months ago
      That has long been a mystery to me as well. How can the dollar stay relatively strong when its underpinnings keep getting much worse. With Federal Government debt levels, including unfunded liabilities, getting dramatically bigger the dollar ought to be declining in value.
      Theory says it will eventually, but when?
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      • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
        It's called the world reserve currency backed by oil but that illusion is falling apart quickly. If you think Venezuela has inflation problems, wait until all those petro dollars come home to roost. Estimates have the amount of petro dollars around $150 Trillion.
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        • Posted by mshupe 1 year, 2 months ago
          Its the world reserve currency because Bretton Woods said so when it became obvious the Allies would defeat the Axis.
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          • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
            Actually the agreement was written long before that when as a neutral nation we provided huge deliveries of armament to the British. As our price for joining the war the City of London agreed to withdraw the pound and accept the dollar but we had to give up all our gold at $35 an ounce. Nixon had to stop it because there was no more gold left. Remember when we couldn't give Germany back there reserve deposit they kept in the US.

            And I didn't even mention that WWII had consumed Europe, Africa, Asia, Russia, China and the whole of the Pacific Rim.

            And as reserve currency our bankers got to loan money backed by government stolen from the citizens.

            Is that the Bretton Woods agreement you are referring to?
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    • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
      On a daily basis there is more commodity contract for gold and silver than what exists in the world. If you want to prove the point, buy a commodity contract and demand delivery or an exorbitant fee to drop. You will receive the exorbitant fee as the goods are not readily available.

      It's called gambling, call their bluff.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 1 year, 2 months ago
        I don't buy promises from the banking cartel voluntarily. Accepting their FRNs is done only at federal threat of force.
        When one group runs the game, manipulates the rules to serve themselves, and forces other unwilling participants to accept total financial responsibility when there is a crisis, I wouldn't call it gambling as the term is usually defined.
        What exactly is your rational plan that an individual effectively "call their bluff" ?
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        • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
          Of course you do, on a daily basis. Do you have a mortgage? Do you have credit cards? If yes then you voluntarily accepted a promise with no coercion whatsoever. He that comes to equity must come with "clean hands".

          Stop being a good little citizen and stand as a people. I would suggest an excellent book, "U.S.A. The Republic Is The House That No One Lives In. The start of the introduction:

          "Our Republic (at time of this writing) is now celebrating the 200th birthday of the Bill of Rights to our Constitution. Through the wisdom of a few free - thinking men, we have come incredibly far in 200 years. Our nation has been blessed with prosperity more than any other in world history. The technology in this country compares with no other. Our leadership in world politics and economics has no rival. Yet, all this has happened outside the "house" our predecessors on this continent designed and built."
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          • Posted by freedomforall 1 year, 2 months ago
            Are you practicing what you preach? If so, please elaborate on how you rationally do so.
            The underlying currency represented by all credit operations is stipulated by law and only approved cartel members are allowed to participate. I do not voluntarily consent since there is no legal and practical alternative. To my knowledge, every person who has left the financial system must still depend on others in the system to survive. Your suggestion is, at best, impractical and counterproductive.
            I repeat, what exactly is your rational plan that an individual effectively "call their bluff" ?
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            • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
              Of course I practice what I preach. I own all my property outright.

              Last week I contracted with a local vendor to replace the roof on my house and he confirmed I have a zero credit rating as I haven't had credit for more than two decades.

              I fought the IRS to a standstill, they refuse to participate in any legal proceeding as they would have to publicly announce that I'm not a tax payer. I haven't paid taxes since 1994. They pretend I don't exist.

              The last magistrate I faced is still a little ashen in the face on my offer to ligate with him based on 18 USC 242 and 42 USC 1983. He immediately dismissed me rather than discuss my unregistered truck.

              Rationally do so, are you a slave, I'm not.

              I believe you are in love with your question, so much so you don't want an answer because you have been given one but refuse to accept it.
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              • Posted by freedomforall 1 year, 2 months ago
                I will be glad to applaud your achievements with more details, but you still have not stated the rational plan for so doing, nor how you accomplish any tasks that are required for an average person with a family to survive. Where does someone get funding to buy or build a dwelling to live in with his family if he doesn't have enough to pay cash? Are there guidelines for choosing a property to prevent ad valorem taxation? How do you make a living and prevent IRS from seizing your property and production? How do you practically pay your bills? Do the IRS and/or local tax authorities have liens on your property or actions against you? Do you have a bank account?
                You are suggesting that someone change their way of life completely and take the substantial risk of opposing the tax collectors of federal, state, and local governments. No rational person does such a thing without adequate detail. To get someone to give up a way of life that is working for them (albeit not ideal) you have to provide rational solutions.
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                • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
                  I'm not looking to be applauded as that was not my intention. You challenged my claim and I responded with my facts which you are presupposed to deny.

                  I have no plan for an average family to survive, that is not my venue. I only have a plan on how I survive and that is very well thank you, How another handles their survival is up to them, not me.

                  Where another gets funding is up to them as man has the unlimited ability to contract. If another wants to deal with the devil, that is on them, not me. Just don't try and stand on false premises by denial of the fact. Lots are available for as little as $5000. You may have to live out of a van or tent as you save money for a small structure. Where there is a will, there is a way.

                  Avoidance of taxation is another matter all together, it is not for the faint hearted. I do pay real estate tax because my little farm has such a low tax bill it is not worth my effort to remove it from the tax roles. We do not allow our county to issue bonds so no real burden there. I pay sales tax only when I can not avoid it which means I pay little.

                  Let me address this fully before moving on to the IRS. Property can be removed from county tax roles by the acquisition of allodial title. It requires a tremendous amount of work if you live in one of the original 13 states as it requires you to trace all the way back to the king's grant which is further complicated by the use of metes and bounds system. All the other states are much easier as you can determine the end result via the Bureau of Land Management to find the original patent. It is also much easier when completed as you send a certified copy of the property search and apply for the patent to come forward in your name.

                  I have no need to make a living at this time. I owe nobody and have no mortgage. I grow most of my own food and either barter or buy what else I need. There is a family a couple of miles from me that has grass fed grass fed beef which is just fabulous with a fat profile similar to fish without all the heavy metal poisoning.

                  As to the IRS, I would highly suggest Dave Champion's book, "Income Tax: Shattering the Myths". I would have loved to have had that book when I was doing battle with the IRS. But alas I just picked that up recently and I had already won. But what one must remember when fighting the IRS is not to obtain that dreaded "tax protestor" status. But the easiest way to defeat the IRS is to offer to pay immediately upon tender a certified declaration that you are a taxpayer and a certified invoice.

                  I keep stating I owe no one anything until my roofer finishes his task and all payment matters have been arranged under their terms of 12 months same as cash. I have instructed my bank of the payment schedule so they that matter is resolved and I again owe nothing. Guess that address the bank question.

                  I am not suggesting anyone do anything. I merrily inform that their are options. What you are suggesting was answered by V in my all time favorite movie "V for Vendetta", fear keeps you under control. I have no fear. The most that can be done is death and I have already accepted that reality.

                  Now you are asking that another man live for you, that I refuse to do. I ask nothing of anyone as no one lives for me. I offer options, it is up to the individual to determine the methods, the price and their wiliness to pay that price.

                  If you want to see what freedom feels like, I would suggest you start with a traffic ticket. So long as you have done no harm because with harm you have waived your rights, challenge jurisdiction by filing a motion for dismissal on the grounds of personal jurisdiction. But beware as the unprepared are doomed to failure.
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      • Posted by mshupe 1 year, 2 months ago
        Buy a commodity contract? You mean go long, right? If you're long the futures contract you're willing to buy the basis. Got the cash? Or are you buying options on futures? Put or call?
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        • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
          Yes, a long buy position with a near future date for delivery, and take delivery. Mini contract for 1000 troy ounces would be around $16,000. Playing the market is nothing but a gamble anyway. You're gambling they can't deliver, they are gambling you won't require delivery because they don't have physical.

          Worse case for you, you have to store silver which should according to money managers should be at least 10% of a wise portfolio. You see you would not be really gambling, you would be ready for any emergency or a nice profit in the future on being able to deliver physical metal.

          I favor silver because the annual ore recovery rates of silver are dropping in relationship to gold. But the big thing is silver is required in so many manufacturing processes that it's value will necessarily have to rise for delivery of actual metal.

          Do I have the cash, not any more. Spent every penny of my heirs inheritance, it was a marvelous time. But not a problem got my silver and some gold too.
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          • Posted by jimjamesjames 1 year, 2 months ago
            Just like Scrooge McDuck, I love to pull out my 101 pounds of silver rounds (1/4, 1/2, 1 oz), and fondle them. Accumulated over the last 40 years at an average cost, per ounce, of about $9.
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            • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
              You didn't get any tearaways, how are you going to make change?

              I would say that when that brown stuff gets into the fan you will be prepared. Have you seen the projection that silver and gold may change ratios with silver being a multiple of gold?
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              • Posted by jimjamesjames 1 year, 2 months ago
                The 1/4 oz rounds will do fine for small transactions. I envision being able to fill my tank (48 gallons) with diesel for 1/2 oz. As to the G/S ratio, in terms of extraction, 10 times more silver (more or less) is mined than gold thus, the ratio should be closer to 1:10, historically, about 1:16.

                Here's an interesting resource http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-go... Nevertheless, when gold goes up, silver will go up, proportionally, more.
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                • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
                  Actually I seen some reports from trusted sources that the rate of consumption with all these phones and computers is trending toward the deficit side. Couple that with news like this from 2016: http://www.kitco.com/news/2016-12-23/...
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                  • Posted by jimjamesjames 1 year, 2 months ago
                    We are on the same page, Alfred. Hell, maybe silver will become worth more than gold!!!
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                    • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
                      We do seem to be on the same page, different paragraphs but the same page.

                      Silver will outstrip gold because silver is necessary in many processes whereas gold holds mostly an intrinsic value based on utility not need.
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                      • Posted by jimjamesjames 1 year, 2 months ago
                        Agree on the gold is a "barbaric relic" noted by J.M. Keynes, though he was referring to his advocacy of central banking, not gold, per se. Nevertheless, fondling my silver is a joy and makes me smile.....
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                        • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
                          I don't like prints on my pristine rounds so I try not to fondle them.

                          Well there has been beads, salt, diamonds (worse than gold except as industrial abrasive), chocolate and so much more.

                          Wonder what's next? I'd say brains but they are hard to measure in short term and many would be destitute.
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                          • Posted by jimjamesjames 1 year, 2 months ago
                            Water. Have watched a couple of long documentaries on water issue in the world and it is going to get worse in many parts of the world. Parts of Mexico City are sinking due to water table depletion. Consider, Los Angeles has been sucking on water taken from the Owens Valley, 250 miles north since about 1911.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 1 year, 2 months ago
    Bitcoin, shitcoin.While we are headed in the direction of Venezuela, to date, it is still quite a way off.The world economies have gone nuts. Even the price of gold and silver has become variably unreliable for no apparent reason except that manipulators are trying to squeeze more value out of a thing whose value should not be screwed around with..
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  • Posted by  $  allosaur 1 year, 2 months ago
    Me dino had the good fortune to receive a tidy inheritance.
    That's how I was able to previously mention being able to afford adding four guns to the two I had.
    Not mentioned was buying a year-old-car with one whopping check with plenty left over.
    Bitcoin? Me dino wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot-long pole.
    No, let's make this jazzy modern like bitcoin is supposed to be.
    Me dino wouldn't touch bitcoin with a ten-meter-long way longer pole.
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  • Posted by  $  DeangalvinFL 1 year, 2 months ago
    Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
    Yes, all things are relative and only relative to a worthless currency would bitcoin temporarily qualify.
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    • Posted by mshupe 1 year, 2 months ago
      To qualify as a viable currency for an indefinite period of time requires confidence as a store of value, medium of exchange, and unit of account. For that to happen it has to have a high store/flow ratio. Bitcoin has that.
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    • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
      But the real nature of bit coin lies in it's limited supply. As bitcoin is quickly approaching saturation, what is going to happen when the miners go away? Block chain failure? Absolutely.
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      • Posted by mshupe 1 year, 2 months ago
        Quickly approaching saturation? What the hell are you talking about?
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        • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
          Are you aware how bit coin works? There is no centralized source that can update the register. The first block of coins released was for 50% of the total bit coins that can exist. That block is calculated to last over a 4 year period of time and will pay out a certain sum of bit coins on a average 10 minute window. The miner that is first to solve a complicated math problem gets to write a block of transactions to the blockchain and received the sum of bitcoins (currently 12.5) plus any fees associated, Every blockchain computer then verifies the correct answer and the whole blockchain is updated. The next block to be released will probably be awarded at 10 or less bit coins and will occur in 2020.

          I can't remember when but the new coin releases will soon be over. When you consider that some of these bit coins ASIC miners can chew up 50 kw every 24 hours, mining is not cheap. Everybody will then have to live off the tranaction fees, And who likes those fees and has huge server populations? My guess would be the banks. It's their business model.
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          • Posted by mshupe 1 year, 2 months ago
            The last of the 21 million bitcoin max should be mined by 2040. Each of those can be divided into 100 million satoshi. By that time transaction costs should be negligible. It's designed as a lousy investment, too expensive to mine, and fungible over space and time.
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            • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
              Thank you, I didn't want to spend the time to look up those final details.

              While I agree it's a lousy investment, it wasn't designed that way. The design was centered around decentralization of currency control which was a fraud unto itself.

              What it has proven is the possibility of a one world currency in a cashless society. And while it is impossible to manipulate the actual bit coins that is not so for either the wallets and more importantly the passwords. This is not a lousy investment, it is a very dangerous technology.

              And all the little sheeple have bought it hook, line and sinker, But not to worry, it will be coming soon to a bank near you.
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  • Posted by  $  Thoritsu 1 year, 2 months ago
    I think it offers true liquidity and anonymity in transactions. Good currency. Volatile investment.
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    • Posted by 1 year, 2 months ago
      If you think bitcoin is anonymous, you don't understand how bitcoin works.
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      • Posted by  $  Thoritsu 1 year, 2 months ago
        I don’t know precisely how it works, but I’m certain it is more anonymous than credit cards, checks and bank transfers.
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        • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
          And you would be sadly mistaken. Blockchain is a matter of public record there for all that wants to take a look.

          The IRS was looking and had every transaction, boy did some people get some rude awakenings for their 2017 tax returns.

          Bitcoin is a test of a technology to see if the sheeple would accept it and to would seem they did. Here comes the cashless society where if you do something not liked your wallet mysteriously just stops working.

          Due to the way the blockchain technology works, bitcoins cannot be manipulated but the wallet is open for control. The fact that your wallet may contain a certain amount of bitcoins will always be true. The fact you are the owner of that wallet or can even gain access to the wallet is easily manipulated.
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    • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
      Rotten in all respects. Looking at the bitcoin chart where you to buy a bitcoin on 12/07/17 for $13727.80 to support a transaction on 12/08/17 when it shot up to $16371.80, you would have been one happy camper.

      However if by that same token your transaction was on 1/6/18 at $17108.70 you would not have been very happy at all on 1/7/18 when you needed more because the value had dropped to $16371.80.

      The only real value of bitcoin is high intensity gambling.
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  • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
    Not even then, this is all an emotional response to fiat currency. Instead of looking to value, most people look to expediency.

    Bit Coin is nothing more than a government scam. It has been allowed to flourish because it will have value to the government in the future. This is the start of a cashless society were dissenters can easily be cut off from any form of goods with just a few keystrokes.

    The bankers of the world thanks all the idiots dumb enough to participate.
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    • Posted by mshupe 1 year, 2 months ago
      It seems extremely unlikely that a government operative could invent blockchain. Government is by definition a generation behind technological change.
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      • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
        Don't bet on that sir. I provided a communication platform for some technology back in the early to mid seventies that I haven't seen of heard of anything like it to this day. I can only imagine with today's technology what it can do.

        Did you not pay attention to Snowden? And he only scratched the surface because to go any further would invite a bullet.

        Are you not aware of that huge computer farm out in the mid-west with unreal storage capacities that need to be water cooled and we're talking a lot of water?

        Only the bureaucrats have low tech. The military to a lessor degree and the spy agencies have thing that are not of this world.

        Now as to block chain, they didn't need to invent it. They just allowed it to happen and pay the miners very handsomely but they own it. In fact the IRS let it be known in January that they expect taxes to be paid on bitcoin transactions.

        And believe me, they have backdoor passwords and wallet manipulation where you wallet can just sort of disappear.

        Are you not aware of the trend toward cashless societies and bitcoin is the answer. Once bitcoin is fully distributed, remember those guys that started bitcoin, they got that 50% (as a side note miners in 2017 reportedly gobbled up between 1 to 4 gigawatts of electricity.

        Can you not guess that when the mining is done the only miners that may remain will in all likelyhood the banks that will be collecting the fees. Read your bank insert lately, then fees have been climbing. And the IRS will be told all, no new technology there but their friends the bankers will send over some tapes.
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        • Posted by  $  Thoritsu 1 year, 2 months ago
          1-4 gigawatts? Over what period of time?
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          • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
            2017
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            • Posted by  $  Thoritsu 1 year, 2 months ago
              So, it was between 8,760-35,040 GW-hrs. At $0.12/kW-hr, this is $1E12 - $4E12 cost for electricity. Didn’t see that in the budget.

              Perhaps you mean it was between 1 and 4 GW-hrs, which is still between $120M and $480M. Even at the cost line, this is big bucks.

              How big is this facility in acres?
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              • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
                Perhaps you are trying to read a lot more into this than exists.

                The claim was for gigawatt hours and was one of the low estimates maintaining a very conservative estimate. How conservative, try this one"

                https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...

                "The skyrocketing value of Bitcoin is leading to soaring energy consumption. According to one widely cited website that tracks the subject, the Bitcoin network is consuming power at an annual rate of 32TWh—about as much as Denmark. By the site's calculations, each Bitcoin transaction consumes 250kWh, enough to power homes for nine days.

                Naturally, this is leading to concerns about sustainability. Eric Holthaus, a writer for Grist, projects that, at current growth rates, the Bitcoin network will "use as much electricity as the entire world does today" by early 2020. "This is an unsustainable trajectory," he writes."

                This is not based on a single facility, it is based on the technology as it stands currently.
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                • Posted by  $  Thoritsu 1 year, 2 months ago
                  No, looking for a place for a tin foil hat.

                  Computers are 0% efficient. 1-4 GW in a square mile is an exciting amount of heat.
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                  • Posted by AlfredENewman 1 year, 2 months ago
                    Agreed, even 1 GW would be extensive heat but spread over a year then no so much.

                    I only used the cite for 1-4 GW as it was the low end of the range but this second article I cited is stating that worldwide annual consumption is 32TW. Now we are talking power.

                    One YouTube presentation I say from a bitcoin miner said his power bill was $80,000 a month and he averaged 30 bitcoins a month. Yes it was paying for itself but what an utter waste of resources.
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