We can’t have a totally free market?
Posted by Solver 6 years ago to Ask the Gulch
A free market without rules would be like competitive teams playing sports games without rules.
Agree or disagree?
If you agree, how should the free market be limited?
Agree or disagree?
If you agree, how should the free market be limited?
None of these are “individual rights.”
I heartily recommend a reading of Steven Pinker's "The Blank Slate" if you are interested in learning more about our human nature, and how we are wired to behave.
Governments role is to protect our rights.
I’ll play devils avocate. Let’s say that customer A has 1000 slave girls to trade with dealer B, who has a suitcase nuke. Both A and B want to trade.
I suspect it’s more than the customers that provide the guidelines/rules/limits to free trade.
I read this discussion up to the last post below. Is it simplistic for me to separate trade from the action. It's not illegal to buy slaves because buying is illegal but rather because slavery is illegal. It's the same with hiring a hitman or buying goods you know are stolen. It's not the buying that's the crime. It's what you're buying that's illegal. You can have a totally free market, but that doesn't mean everything is legal as long as it's in some way marketed.
You are confusing the determination of items that are dangerous/immoral with trade.
You don't think that anyone should own 1000 slave girls or a suitcase nuke. I'm certainly inclined to agree with you on the slaves and probably the nuke as well but that's not quite as solid.
A market is trade. Presumably you must have the right to own the thing you are trading. So what you are talking about is the ownership of these items it has nothing to do with a free market.
And to further your analogy you can play sports without externally specified rules -- so long as the two teams agree to the rules they are going to use.
I don’t think someone should be able to own 1000 slave girls. It does not mater much what I think if some rulers that make up their own laws in some country owned a thousand slave girls and wanted to trade them. What would limit them from doing so in a free trade market?
Your problem is with people owning things that you don't want them to own, and especially when it comes to slavery I don't thing you should own people. But a market has nothing to do with that. You shouldn't own them and not trade them either.
I would say more accurately, a market is where people are exchanging things they possess.
Many people will trade what they did not earn.
So back to the original question, can a free market operate without rules?
No rules means anyone can trade anything they want to. Let’s pretend we have a real free market.
and then a freer one...and then a freer one.....
If I dont like what facebook does, which I dont, I can just abstain from using it. Same with TV and news media. I do this all the time. I am the customer from HELL, who makes up his own mind (for better or worse). If everyone else did that, the marketplace would serve the people better.
Monopolies favor only the seller, who has no incentive for product improvement. Some of us are old enough to remember the Bell telephone monopoly, and how the breakup of that monopoly helped create the dynamic, competitive environment for communication services we experience today.
At a minimum, there should be rules that prohibit the formation of monopolies and trusts. In medieval Europe, the rules were established among merchant societies and craftsman guilds, who could take violators before courts, with often unsatisfactory outcomes. That alone points to a need for a common enforceable set of rules, with sufficient authority to force participants to abide by them. That almost inevitably puts enforcement in the hands of government. The question then becomes at what level of government the rules are to be enforced.
Part of the problem with health care, as one glaring example, is that we've allowed the constitutional restriction on inhibiting interstate commerce to be violated by states. Each state sets the rules for health care, including what any health insurance has to cover. creating wild variances in the cost of health care from state to state, and inhibiting trade in medical goods and services between states. That would indicate that the rules of commerce in the U.S. should be set at the highest level in order for the efficient free flow of goods and services
Sometimes something comes to market that is unique. That business may start out as a monopoly. A monopoly that could be maintained as long as the completion can not duplicate a similar product at a similar value.
No force needed during this stage.
I agree with both points yet they were not any part of my last argument or any of my arguments, but you counter argued as if they were. So I stopped after that first sentence, well above, and called it a strawman. Everything after that I pretty much ignored.
My last argument is either valid or invalid but it seemed to have been just ignored.
“A monopoly cannot be maintained without force.”
Sometimes something comes to market that is unique [that people want]. That business [which created it] may start out as a monopoly. A monopoly that could be maintained as long as the completion can not duplicate a similar product at a similar value.
No force needed during this stage.
If you are trying to say, “A monopoly cannot be maintained forever without force.”, you would, by default, be correct.
Peter Thiel's Zero to One is about this. He says we generally think of competition as good, but what's really good is creating something no one can compete with. It's a quick read and worthwhile.
Over time someone always comes up with a newer creation as an alternative. In real markets everything takes a finite period of time to develop. Accusations of a sustained "monopoly" because competition is not instantaneous are another form of floating abstractions misusing concepts outside of their meaning in reality.
Maybe I need to understand WHY you take the position that force is REQUIRED. I would agree that force is HELPFUL for sure to maintain a monopoly,
I can't imagine paying to listen to talk radio in my car. Probably causes an increase in high blood pressure and road rage ;^)
Still, Sirius XM had maintained a monopoly on various services for years. Just to maintain a monopoly on the Howard Stern show costed them hundreds of millions.
Sirius is a pain in the ass really. I routinely cancel service, and then take their $5 a month retention deal (for years now !!). Its not worth the $18 a month regular price. They have commercials for sirius radio constantly on their supposedly commercial free music stations. LIARS they are.
They dont very good service. choice of music is not good, and the rest of the stations are replete with commercials. Might as well listem to regular FM radio.
I also listen to various internet radio stations on my computer. Many are good quality and few ads. I have a device that streams those stations (and music on network drives) direct to my hifi using my wifi. Works well with very good quality and no subscription fees.
I'm working with a friend to manufacture (in USA) a hi-fi tube preamp for sale later this year that will likely include wi-fi connectivity and built in DAC. Great quality and reasonable price coming soon;^)
I am not "ok" with violating private property rights for the sake of the collective. Lumping bribery and a vague "shutting out" with market dominance is another invalid package deal exploited here for government controls ambiguously passed off as "some guidelines". Protecting the rights of the individual, especially private property rights, in the market is "real competition". Government coercion violating freedom while claiming to provide "free flow" and "opportunity" in a rationalized floating abstraction of a "market" is not.
Look at Mc Donalds- in the beginning it was cheeseburgers, fries, and shakes. Now, check out their menu, and in spite of that Burger King, Wendy's, Jack in the Box, Taco Bell, Del Taco, etc., etc.
And None of them have a monopoly
Trusts can create an "impenetrable" market. The big three auto manufacturers collectively bought all the excess steel to attempt to prevent new competition. They hadn't counted on Henry J. Kaiser, who built his own steel mill to produce the Kaiser and Fraser autos. However, unless a similarly wealthy individual or corporation can fight a trust, it pretty well closes out competition. No force required.
The problems come when people decide that they need to make rules for other people because they don't respect others. This is usually those in government seeking power. That's when you start getting favorable treatment towards some groups, cronyism, etc.
Black markets just circumvent the rules which make any market un-free.