13

Census to include citizenship question

Posted by $ blarman 6 years ago to Culture
48 comments | Share | Flag

California is fighting this - of course - because they want representation (in the House and Electoral College) they can control (i.e. illegal immigrants). Representation should be ONLY from US Citizens - not illegals or visitors.
SOURCE URL: https://www.mail.com/news/politics/8374560-decision-to-add-citizenship-question-to-census-dra.html#.7518-stage-hero1-3


Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years ago
    Wouldn't it be "interesting" to live in a country run by a government elected in another country by non voting citizens? You think not? Well, if you're a Democrat that is what you are promoting.What if you got in your car that you bought and paid for not to mention insured and when you went to drive it a total stranger pushed you into the passenger seat and told you he was driving from now on. Even if you liked the idea of being chauferred, you might not like the fact that the driver is not necessarily going to where you want to go. But apparently, that's the new Democrat norm.Are they nuts - or what?
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by mccannon01 6 years ago
    I think our country went down a similar, but not quite the same, road in its past. That is, pre-Civil War slave state Democrats wanted slaves counted in the census in order to gain additional representation in Congress, even though slaves were denied the vote. I ask, "what's next?" a 3/5ths illegal immigrant compromise? I suspect the communists ... uh, I mean Democrats... could use this to swing the electoral college more to their liking as well. The ploy is the same even if the people being exploited by the Dems as a means to the end are different. I agree, blarman, non citizens shouldn't be allowed to vote, nor should their numbers be counted to gain more representative power for those that do.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 6 years ago
      There's no question about it: illegal immigrants count toward representation. The issue is not whether to count them but that Democrats fear that the question itself will keep illegals from filling out the census.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ 6 years ago
        They aren't citizens. They can't legally vote. They can't be legally represented in Congress. If they are included in one's representative count, it replicates exactly what mccannon01 is pointing out: that this is no different than the 3/5th's Compromise: the "slaveholders" (those taking advantage of illegals) are getting excess voting power while the individual illegals get what? Handouts from the rest of us!
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by ewv 6 years ago
          Slaves were not getting handouts.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ 6 years ago
            No, slaves were not getting handouts, but today's use of illegals is every bit as exploitative - which is the point. The leftists entice the illegals to come live here and work here with promises of government handouts - handouts which can subject them to prosecution and expulsion from the country. They are making slaves out of them by making them offenders of the law subject only to the whim of the ruling class in choosing whether or not to impose the penalties of the law - right out of Atlas Shrugged. The illegals provide political power for the elites in no manner different than the slaves of the 18th and 19th centuries.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by ewv 6 years ago
              Non-citizens who cannot vote (but often do anyway) aren't "no different" than slaves being exploited. People who do not vote are not exploited for political power. Equating slaves with people getting "handouts" is a terrible and invalid analogy.

              People who come here looking for work or welfare or both simultaneously know what they are doing. They are not slaves "exploited by the ruling class". Rationalizing filled contradictions and package deals mixing Marxism with conservative slogans is not "right out of Atlas Shrugged.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • -1
                Posted by $ 6 years ago
                Illegals are quite different than legal non-citizens. Your conflation of the two is disingenuous. And yes, the illegals are getting exploited. They can't take their grievances to the local authorities for adjudication. They can't complain about their landlord. They can't complain about their teachers. They can't complain about employers working conditions. I saw this firsthand with some Albanians whose children were going to a public school. The teacher knew they were illegal and threatened to expose them and have them deported if they didn't do what he (the teacher) wanted. I even met the teacher later - he was a jerk.

                "People who do not vote are not exploited for political power. "

                That's one of the primary reasons California is fighting this: they want the representation which comes with the extra population of illegals whom they are importing left and right, but those very same politicians can turn right around and deny the illegals the right to vote to control their own lives and laws. That's not exploitation? Of course it is!

                In Atlas Shrugged, one of the chief methods being used by the ruling class for manipulating people was to make them an offender of a law they could then arbitrarily choose to enforce. Illegal immigration fits perfectly within this mindset because the sheer number of illegals makes them difficult to deal with en masse. Their stories are also manipulated in the media to prey upon the emotions of the populace (see the so-called "dreamers") despite the fact that a large portion of the illegal population consists of gangs, violent criminals and repeat offenders. In my eyes, there is a very open and direct parallel to the book.

                "Rationalizing filled contradictions and package deals mixing Marxism with conservative slogans..."

                Which are inventions of your own mind and which you are more than happy to keep to yourself. -1. I espoused nothing of the kind.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by ewv 6 years ago
                  The rationalizations and contradictions are throughout Blarman's own posts. Equating people coming for handouts with the slaves is both false and offensive. Political power is not gained from people who can't vote. I did not equate legal and illegal non-citizens; he made that up and proceeded to use it to rationalize his usual personal insults. I am not "disingenuous".

                  There was no "ruling class" in Atlas Shrugged. It was a novel about the importance of ideas, not Marxist "exploitation" by the "whims of the ruling class". Those are his words, not "inventions of my own mind". Blarman's rhetoric, rationalizing free association of ideas, and personal attacks have nothing in common with *Atlas Shrugged".
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by ewv 6 years ago
        After the Constitution was ratified, calling for a census of counting "persons", there was no such thing as an illegal immigrant and all immigrants were assumed to be becoming citizens. But if the War of 1812 had been the War of 1810 would the census that year have counted British soldiers as "persons"?
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ 6 years ago
          The immigration laws have changed over the years. The laws around Madison's time were all about: you're welcome to come here, but do so knowing there are no handouts: you're on your own. Around WW I, the laws around open immigration changed drastically and immigration was no longer a given. Topping that all off was the introduction of the Social Security system, which then made verifiable citizenship an official thing so one could qualify for government handouts, and everything has gone downhill from there.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by ewv 6 years ago
            That does not address the purpose of the census in the Constitution.

            "Everything went downhill" did not start with an was not caused by "verifiable citizenship" with a Social Security card, which was also long after WWI.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by $ 6 years ago
              Your original question about British soldiers was meaningless. My point is that times have changed and that now we do have illegal immigration which must be accounted for and immigration has become more about social programs than building America.

              What is the purpose of the Census as it relates to the Constitution? It is for the purpose of apportionment in the House of Representatives. Thus citizenship status is an entirely Constitutional and legitimate question to include on the Census. Only citizens should be counted toward apportionment. Only citizens are legally entitled to vote for representation in government. If one also gathers information on other people living in the United States for informational purposes such as employment, cost of living, etc. I have no problem with that.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by ewv 6 years ago
                "Times have changed" is not an answer to interpreting the Constitution. Neither is rationalizing what you would prefer.

                A lot of people do legitimately object to using the census for open-ended "informational purposes" contrary to Constitutional authority and more fundamental ethical violations through forced interrogation.

                The census was not originally related to citizenship or voting. About half the population consisted of women who could not vote. The census was a ten year sampling of the population, including permanent residents and those expected to be replaced. The Federal government was by consent of the people, consisting of all residents, not just voters, represented by the House of Representatives for the people in different geographical regions.

                Excluding a temporary invading army from the census would have been a reasonable interpretation (aside from the impracticality of getting enemy soldiers to answer polls or fill out forms). Excluding non-citizen residents, even those here for a short term but being replaced in a statistical trend over a ten year cycle, would be more difficult to justify under the apparent intent of the census.

                As much as it is reasonable to want to know how many non-citizens are here, let alone illegals, who aren't supposed to be voting and collecting tax-subsidized benefits, the original intent of the census does not appear to allow that. The left and other statists cannot argue based on that intent in the authorization because they want to use the census and all other government powers to do whatever they want in accordance with whatever their ideology demands.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by maxgeoac 6 years ago
    Why was California the 1st to file a lawsuit on this issue? Why are they worried about having fewer representatives in Congress and get fewer federal funds? I thought they were going to Secede?
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ 6 years ago
      There are reports that much of the rest of the State would like to leave the metro areas to their own designs...
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by Solver 6 years ago
        Imagine that California did create its own nation. Leftists from other states would flood in to forcefully remove the diseased parts. Respect would be law. A new political party would be formed. It would likely be called, the National Socialist Kalifornia Workers Party.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by $ 6 years ago
          It would be interesting to see the entire thing go down and twenty years later turn into "Escape from LA" (starring Kurt Russell). Because without the rest of the producers to prop them up, they would suffer an epic meltdown.

          My biggest concern there would be that China would offer to buy them out - or just occupy them.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by GaryL 6 years ago
    I suppose we should all care if illegals refuse to submit their census forms or state if they are here illegally. Like with stronger background checks for gun purchases. I am pretty sure that illegals, criminals and gang member don't submit to background checks before they purchase or obtain their guns.
    Democrats will always take a strong stance on weak issues whenever it comes down to their voter base. The definition of Anti American!
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by NealS 6 years ago
      Of course the census does not ask about "Illegals", it only asks if you are a citizen. A "No" answer does not mean you are here illegally.
      What's the real issue, it's do everything in your power to make it hard for America to succeed under a Trump administration, no matter what. I would guess the left would let North Korea go nuclear as long as it made Trump look bad. How can the people be so fooled and act so stupid because of these politicians? What do the people actually get out of it? It's all for and about the politicians, they could give a hoot about anything or anyone else, even this country.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by CarrieAnneJD 6 years ago
    "The Census Bureau states on its website that personal information obtained through its surveys cannot be used against respondents by any government agency or court. And the disclosure by an employee of any information that would personally identify a respondent or family can lead to up to five years in prison or a fine of $250,000, or both."

    But please... let's talk about how this is going to be used to target people here illegally.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Casebier 6 years ago
    Don't know why blue California is worried about this when red Texas will have the same questions on their census forms, and looks to lose equivalent representation in the House and Electoral College. Or maybe they're concerned that once an illegal signs a government form declaring such status that they'll be less inclined to register and illegally vote. Might see a glaringly marked decline in California Democrat voter rolls, while in Texas where photo ID's are required to vote, and they don't give driver's licenses to non-citizens, maybe not so much.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Ben_C 6 years ago
    Simple solution - census is in English only. If the democrats object then the argument can be made that clearly their agenda is to inflate the census numbers with illegals (which obviously is the case). I would live to hear the MSM rationalize the census in other languages.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Solver 6 years ago
      Well, if we all spoke the same language then we could all understand each other, express our ideas and reason things out and that would be bad, for those who want to divide and rule us.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by NealS 6 years ago
    I think the Feds should completely skip the census for California, and just estimate the numbers (like Obama wanted to do). Then they could drop some of their fruitcakes and lose representation based on the lower estimates.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by LibertyBelle 6 years ago
    Personally, I don't see that it has much practical importance. I mean, an illegal alien filling it out could just lie and claim to be a citizen, and how would anybody know?
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo