Question for you regarding Altruism

Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 11 months ago to Philosophy
184 comments | Share | Best of... | Flag

We've had a totally voluntary military for about 40 years now.
The ultimate altruistic act would be to willingly give one's life for others.
We've had several periods of conflict over those 40 years.

How do Objectivists view those who volunteer for the military? Especially the Army and Marines who have been the brunt of the casualties in the past 40 years.

Isn't volunteering for something that might result in the ultimate sacrifice, one's own life, for the benefit of others, the ultimate form of altruism?

Should those who volunteer for the military be admired, or vilified?


All Comments


Previous comments...   You are currently on page 5.
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I have, and you're correct, there are some things that are disappointing. I merely use her as a surrogate for the concept of altruism. There are many others - Ghandi, Mandela, etc. Nobody is pure anything, so you can always find something to counter the main point.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Solver 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If the individual sacrifices greater values for a lessor values, then yes. Otherwise, no.
    This is not a one single firm answer from the collective mind type question. It's all about the individual and what each person values.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    By Objectivist philosophy all people own themselves and by derivation are free, and by further derivation not allowed to initiate force against others, but are allowed to use retaliatory force. I think we're on the same sheet of music here, correct?

    So, a nation of such people that exists in a world of other beliefs would need to maintain a countervailing force to protect itself from the initiation of force by others (am I correct here? Or do you believe that such a force could only be assembled after being aggressed upon?). It is in the personal interest of each citizen to have such a force, is it not, as it protects the liberty of all?

    Since such a force must be comprised of somebody, and it is in the personal interest of each individual, is it not logical that each individual should agree voluntarily to perform this activity? It is in their interest to do so.

    If none chose to do so, wouldn't that open up all to the application of aggression by outside forces?

    People aren't all the same. Even given the same situation and using their rational minds, they can come to different conclusions, don't you agree?
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I can see a diploma, the sign of an education (or at least successfully meeting requirements for same - whether educated or not is another matter), as can I see, touch, measure a car, all these things are measurable. How do I measure "patriotism" or "love of country?"
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As I said, I also served, and joined for many of the same reasons that you identify.

    Do you consider yourself an Objectivist? If not, then you probably cannot answer my queries. If so, the issue is with your statement that you did it for "something you believe in." That is not objective, it is subjective. I cannot observe, touch, test, measure what you "believe in." I thought that was anti-thetical to Objectivism. I'm trying to rectify that inconsistency.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Isn't it altruistic to volunteer to do so? Particularly if you haven't had force initiated against you in the first place?
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I've said as much several times. But there are some very fundamental issues that I take issue with (as do others here, but I'm just more strident in my exposition of same - in the interest of understanding how to close the gap), but they are relatively few. I started this topic to open a dialog on one of the most fundamental issues that I cannot reconcile in my own mind regarding Objectivist philosophy (or epistemology or whatever you want to call it - to me it is just a belief system). Frankly, I'm not sure that many Objectivists have themselves given the topic much thought, notice the absence of many of the typical O voices in this thread.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I know your reason for serving.

    I feel sorry for modern and future soldiers, in a military where PC inclusiveness and "feelings" matter more than winning wars.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    well, to your last point, that is called working as a team and is important in most military operations. As well, making promises between one another and sticking to a code of conduct is perfectly rational and in self interest. NOT altruism. I am now going to torture you with an Objectivist's definition of altruism because I think there is some confusion:

    "What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.

    Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice—which means; self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction—which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

    Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not give a dime to a beggar. That is not the issue. The issue is whether you do or do not have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. The issue is whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem will answer: “No.” Altruism says: “Yes.” '-AR, Philosophy Who Needs It?

    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 11 months ago
    Rand said: "All the reasons that make the initiation of force an evil, make the use of retaliatory force a moral imperative."
    Is it altruistic to defend and protect the country that guarantees your freedoms?
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If you understood my reason for serving, you would know no thanks is necessary.

    I can assume by your confusion you haven't served. If you did, I would be surprised (shocked?) by not understanding that simple trade off.

    I love my country and what it stood for. If its that part you don't understand, then we have no common ground to talk about.

    On top of that, I got a multifaceted education, hands-on (and nerve wracking) leadership and decision making experience I wouldn't see in civilian life for many years. And it turned me from a no-account immature naïve person to someone who could stand up for her beliefs, convictions, and values, who could think under fire and make decisions impacting lives - and continue on.

    You can't *buy* that at any cost, except by trading something of equal value.

    Nothing "altruistic" in that at all. I did it for me, and for my home, family, and nation. I think - no, I *KNOW* - I came out way ahead on the deal.

    Like I said... if you haven't been there, you can't understand.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Robbie actually agrees with the rest of the Gulchers far more than he is given credit for. Most of us have one or two issues that we disagree with AR on. If that weren't the case, GaltsGulchOnline would be pretty boring.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I have read it now, and I still struggle with this issue. There are a couple of things that AR and I disagree on. If that makes me a heretic, that's OK with me. I can live with myself. If I were forced to agree with AR on absolutely everything, I would be in contradiction with myself and could not function properly.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Facts as interpreted through our own perception.

    People ignore the filter perception at their own peril.

    The world is a messy place and you have to make judgments continually. You make that judgment using the best facts you have and your own reasoning and perception.

    This is one of the areas where schools are really sticking it to the students. Teaching people to never judge anything is basically teaching them to never think for themselves either.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    A=A is still true. You are who you are. People are not all the same. What is fundamental about humans and therefor common is the ability to reason. Reasoning is an individual activity and only has meaning if you can act on your thoughts. This means anything that keeps you from being able to use your reason is bad. That eliminates the use of force except against those who initiate force. So the draft is eliminated. In a free country it contradicts its very basis and in a not free country serving in the military is not in your self interest.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by iroseland 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Have a closer look at Mother Theresa and you might find yourself vilifying her for things other than altruism.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    An even tougher question.

    Objectivism fits me very well, so in that respect I would consider myself one, if you force me to self label.

    Are there areas of friction between Objectivism and my personality? Yes

    If I am required to be 100% in line with every tenet of Objectivism I guess the OI would say I am not.

    I am not an atheist, so if that is your criteria of exclusion then I am not an Objectivist.

    Some here would "shun" me on that basis, some would not.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Solver 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Isn't military service "living for the sake of other men?"

    For some, that is their altruistic purpose. For others it the free education, room, board and training. For others it is what their step-father demands. For others they want to fly a fighter jet. For others...
    It is all about the individual.
    Reply | Permalink  

  • Comment hidden. Undo