Guns and Kids

Posted by Casebier 7 years, 2 months ago to Economics
49 comments | Share | Best of... | Flag

The only system proven capable of controlling gun ownership, or ownership of anything, is the free market. If gun ownership is expensive, then those who don’t really care that much about owning them will give them up, and those who really care about their gun ownership and use will keep them.

The question of gun ownership needs to change to a question of whether or not the gun owner is capable of responsible ownership, not whether the gun is capable of killing how many or how quickly. Owning the means to take a life with little forethought or effort is an awesome responsibility and should be restricted to persons that can show they have the mental capability and training that can assure responsible ownership of a weapon, no matter what the age of the owner.

First, why do we place less significance on the responsibilities that are inherent in gun ownership than we do with the ability to drive a car? All gun purchasers should be required to pass an examination on gun responsibility (safety and use) to be licensed, the same as you have to have a license showing you’re capable of driving a car. The license to own a weapon should be either a federal license accepted by all states, or a state licenses with universal criteria accepted by all states. Separately, a license to carry should remain state determined.

Second, gun owners should be required to carry personal liability insurance the same as vehicular drivers, and the cost of the insurance should be determined by the potential damage that can be caused by the nature or the weapon, and the capability of its user. Therefore, there would be minimal cost for a gun-safety-licensed youngster owning a single shot break-open .410 that is used to hunt rabbits or game birds, than would be the cost to a person with a history of violence, or threatening violence, who owns an AR-15.

If a parent has a weapon for a minor child, that child needs to be covered by the parent's liability insurance, and if the child misuses the weapon then the parent is held liable. If the acts or background of an owner results in their not being able to get a license or get liability insurance for their weapon, they’d either have to sell the weapon to a licensed and insured individual, or store the weapon in a licensed secure facility until they could show proof that they are both licensed and insured for that weapon. The cost of insurance would vary depending on the weapon, the same as liability insurance costs vary depending on the type of vehicle you drive, and on the background and training of the owner, same as you can’t drive an 18-wheeler with an automobile license and without passing a commercial truck driving exam.

Anyone caught with a weapon in their possession without both proof of insurance and a gun ownership license would be subject to a fine and potential confiscation. However, like driving without auto registration or proof of insurance, if the person cited then showed up in court with a license to own the weapon in the citation and proof of insurance, their charges would be dropped immediately, or deferred for a period of time to show no reoccurrence and then dropped.

To summarize, why not develop a competitive private liability insurance market that governs gun ownership economically rather than believing the government bureaucrats will ever get it right?

Now as to the age of a person entitled to buy a weapon of any type. No person under 18 years old should be able to acquire any firearm. It would have to be acquired by that person’s parent or guardian whose gun liability insurance included the minor as an insured. Again, to be covered, the insurance company would have to have proof that both the adult and the minor were certified and licensed to be in possession of that particular weapon. Once the person is over 18, they should be able to acquire any legal weapon they want as long as they are certified, licensed and insured for that weapon.

If you're going to prohibit an 18 year old from buying a weapon of any kind based on his age and assumed immaturity, then you better assume he's also incompetent to vote and take away that right. Next, take away the ability for the justice system to automatically criminally charge him as an adult. And finally prohibit him from being in the military where he might make a childish decision costing the lives of fellow service members. In other words, at some point this country has to decide, once and for all, at what age does a person gain all the rights of an adult and lose all the protections of a minor, then base all its laws on that decision.

At the same time, the gun ownership problem is not age. In our rural history, boys regularly got semi-automatic .22 rifles on their 12th birthday, but they didn't go on killing sprees. Girls regularly married at 16, sometimes as young as 14, and started responsible families. Boys at the same age often took over most, if not all, of a family's financial responsibilities if they lost the male head of household. The problem is not with their age, but with how problem children are raised having little or no moral guidance, and with their beliefs that they deserve everything right now with no concept of deferred expectations. Kids of the past had responsibilities, knew their roles in their families and communities, and were secure in knowing that they belonged. Family, social and religious covenants provided strict boundaries they knew they were expected to live within. Today the erosion and sometimes total loss of those boundaries leaves many youth floundering trying to find their way without the guidance of tradition and rules. Their parents avoid giving them unpopular limitations without understanding that limitations provide easier paths to follow and succeed. Hence failures reinforce failures, leaving them feeling powerless, that they don’t belong, that their lives have little meaning or purpose, that they have no future. When bullied, the little kid used to resort to owning a switch blade knife to make himself feel powerful. Today it is a gun. Until people young and old each feel that they have a place and a purpose and a belief that they are seen as having value, acts of violence will continue, and lest we not forget, the most common act of violence is one perpetrated on oneself.


All Comments


Previous comments...   You are currently on page 2.
  • 13
    Posted by jimjamesjames 7 years, 2 months ago
    In a society with guns, there will be atrocities; in a society with no guns, there will be genocides.

    Registration means confiscation.

    If you love your country, never trust your government,
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 2 months ago
    In a land of rational people, firearms are no more scary than an axe or a knife. Merely tools for specialized purposes. The problem is the irrationals among us. We must devise a way to identify and take care of them before they act out. It can be done, it must be done, it shall be done.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 2 months ago
    All the hoo-ha about guns is just so much unneeded nonsense. Guns are inanimate objects. they have no evil or good inherent in them.We must pay attention to the good or evil of the owners. Never mind trying to fix them. Broken owners can be fixed once they've been sent to the big, barred multi-room house by a jury of their peers. The thing we have to devise is a system that identifies likely shooters, and locks them up BEFORE they can do their dirty deeds. I think it is possible. Even probable. Don't you?
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Snezzy 7 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You or I could easily make a gun out of materials available in any hardware store.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 2 months ago
    I'd like to add an observation here that I think some will find interesting. Currently, schools actually protect bullies. Oh sure...you hear about all the "anti-bullying" programs, blah, blah. But, they protect bullies. As a result, some bullies fester into a serious problem. Another result is that some kids (like the kid in Florida) have absolutely zero protection from bullies. As is this case, if the school won't protect a kid and the kid's parents are not able or willing to, it gets really bad. In this case the kid's parents were gone, dying, dead. There are many other factors, as I've mentioned with the young guys on psych meds (often with some correlation to bullying).

    In a side note...I think boys are not really encouraged to be men. There's this concept of "toxic masculinity", me-too, feminism, etc. (not the type of feminism I practice, I actually want strong women). On and on...these are very challenging, confusing times for kids unless their parents are very with it and play an active role.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The Las Vegas shooter doesn't fit the profile, except for his gender. He was a successful, seemingly normal older man, with no criminal record, and no medical record that indicated intake of suspect medications. It's possible to go nuts without the help of prescription meds, I guess. This seems to be a case of a girlfriend who should have reported him.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Stormi 7 years, 2 months ago
    The problem is nt the guns. He could have and was making a bomb. He could easily have set off poisonous gas. He could have driven into the schoolyard and killed many. The problem is, he should have had a police record, but Oabma set up a program where infractions were not reported to police, but handled by the, in my estimation, incompetent school. I was taught by my dad at 8, to use a rifle. I was told if I broke the rules he set up, and was not cautious, it would never be in my hands again. By 13, the boy with the locker next to mine at school, brought his hunting gun to school on many days. There were no shooting, because kids knew limits, respected adults' rules and God was still in the schools. Today, teachers are "change agents" (their words), and push kids toward peers and away from respecting parents. I fear the above ideas are a slippery slope and does not solve the problem, but creates others. Insurance can be very prohibitive and a national data base tells a Marxist government who has what. Obama would just love it.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Under current law, it's perfectly legal for you to construct a firearm for yourself, and you can make as many as you desire. They must comply with firearm regulations (no automatic weapons, e.g.), and you shouldn't sell them to another party too soon. There is no time period by law, but building and selling a "ghost gun" (so called because they usually have no serial numbers) within a short period of time may wind you up on federal charges. The most popular ghost guns are the AR-15 and the Colt 1911 45 ACP, and there are firms that make what is called an "80%" frame that must be milled with the proper openings and slots, and equipped with the trigger and hammer mechanisms before they can function as a firearm. No background checks are currently required for purchase of the materials to make a ghost gun.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by bobsprinkle 7 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The last part of your post about the failure of the FBI is right on. I would say 85% fault. Maybe more. This so called "promise program" is still providing cover for more potential deadly problems.
    Also dangerous is using psychological evaluations to determine rights to own a weapon.
    I KNOW it is a factor. But, I can see how some would avoid counseling out of fear of losing their right to own a weapon. Then there could be "shrink shopping" to find a doctor that might not report them as dangerous.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by scojohnson 7 years, 2 months ago
    Sounds like something made up by an urban dweller. The gun violence problem, while not exclusively, is almost entirely an urban city issue. None of these offenders have had any clue about gun safety, there hasn't been a father in the picture to-date, and the common thread has been a strung-out single mom somewhere in the works.

    I have a lot of rifles in my collection and a couple of handguns, and my CCW weapon. Someday I'll inherit 50+ more from my father. Thanks to the liberals, it's not really cost-effective to sell the stuff I would be willing to, so they take up gun safe space. Am I supposed to have 100 "insurance policies"? That's absurd, I have a 1968 Ruger Deerslayer that has never been fired (ever) in the 50 years it sat in a box in a safe, compare that to some thug in Miami walking around with a handgun hanging from the boxer shorts.

    Similar insurance is already available, CCW insurance - including NRA Carry Guard. Unfortunately Carry Guard was just ended because the Florida assholes blamed the underwriter (Chubb) for some weird 20-steps removed liability for Nikolas Cruz and shamed them into dropping coverage. Cruz certainly did not have a CCW, nor had he ever been to NRA firearms training, and I seriously doubt he was an NRA member. He was a horrible result of liberal ideas of family units, having been adopted by senior citizens and the father dying of natural causes when the kid was 4... Ask any sheriff deputy, the CCW background check and marksmanship training is top-notch, you need 97/100 rounds dead-center, and CCW people are anything but a risk to society. But the insurance is still around $250 a year - it's not about liability from the victim, it's primarily for legal defense because you will be arrested if you discharge a firearm and someone is injured or killed, self-defense doesn't matter, you will be charged- maybe not found guilty, but only after a million dollars in legal costs... That's why there is CCW insurance. I don't actually carry mine - mostly for that reason, and also because I don't really go anywhere that I perceive to be dangerous. I have a CCW because "I can". I only carry when I'll be in a remote area with $100,000 worth of RV and tow vehicle on a hunting trip, self-defense if stumbling on a gang of tweekers from the 'hood out where they shouldn't be cooking their brew. I don't need it when out for dinner.

    For the most part, accidental discharge and the like are already covered by homeowner's insurance, and I have a separate policy covering my high-value items in my collection (from theft). The argument here makes it sound like just because I have a couple of AR-15s for range use, that by definition, I am a "higher risk" of deciding to open up on people just because - like an 18 year old with dad's corvette. That's absurd. It's funny, no one mentions an AR-10 in the mix... probably 4 times as powerful as the lowly 55 grain .22 caliber projectile that an AR-15 is throwing. An AR-10 is a .30 caliber .308 round at 168 grains and comparable velocity. But the writer here seems to think that the notoriety of the "AR-15" should be a higher priced insurance policy? It also outsells almost everything else 10 to 1, so yeah - a single broadly-interpreted model with 3 million loosely-defined copies on the streets, compared to 1000s of other market choices sold in small quantities - I would expect to see a spike in the statistics looking at individual "models". Why don't we use some granularity? Was a Del-Ton $399 plastic AR-15, a $1000 Bushmaster, $700 Colt, or a DIY with composite furniture? Do I have to add cost to your insurance policy scheme because I prefer to have a $1700 vintage M1 Garand in the collection instead of a Walmart $169 Marlin lever action 30/30?

    Do I have to have an insurance policy on a musket wall-hanger? I guarantee your average idiot-thug that broke into my home would have no idea how to use it. Do I have to have more insurance on my hand-loaded ammunition (which is probably 5-times more accurate than store-bought)? Is that a "risk factor" compared to someone that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside? Maybe I get a huge discount for being a veteran? Or the libs don't like Vets because we only vote GOP and would want it to be "unavailable" to Veterans because we all have PTSD in their eyes, because their safe spaces at Berkeley didn't really paint them a picture of the way the world really is.

    This sounds a lot like infringing "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". It doesn't say "might be", it says "shall not".
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by jeffdhurley1 7 years, 2 months ago
    There is a very robust private liability insurance industry for gun owners that covers any use of deadly force , guns , bats,knives . I would say that anyone who does not have this coverage and carries is foolish in today litiginous society . I can agree on the last paragraph of this tome ,The rest ...to me... smacks of stealth removal of the rights insured by our second amendment . You have the right to bear arms .. upon approval of the type of firearm, your emotional state ,your age , you insurability etc with those guidelines based on the decisions of those the right was implemented to protect against .. henhouse...meet fox ! Also these guidelines would only be followed voluntarily by those who doubtless would not kill anyone in the first place .
    reminds me of a great Randian truth . There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. ....Rand
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by pamzt 7 years, 2 months ago
    That sound all well and good. But it puts additional burden on those who are already responsible gun owners. The criminals will continue to procure and use weapons illegally. They don't work within the constraints of the law and would continue to not do so even with more laws and regulations. So why are we trying to burden the law abiding gun owners?

    It sad that when these terrible events occur, we immediately look to restrain the rights of citizens rather than address the core of the issue ( as suggested by others on this thread) such as the lack of respect for humankind.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Snezzy 7 years, 2 months ago
    Where I live boys (and girls) in our rural area often own firearms and learn how to use them properly. I was talking to a gentleman, and his son about 7 years old was standing nearby holding a .22, but had it pointed away from me, at the ground. As I walked about, the boy always moved so that his weapon was pointed away from me.

    In our local city, things are somewhat different. People get shot, usually by someone they know. Sometimes the perp is arrested. They are known felons already, and thus unable to own a gun legally. I don't know where they get them. Probably steal them. So for them, gun ownership is already illegal.

    Suppose I want a gun, but can't buy one because it's against the law. Can I make one myself? Or is there some secret formula that nobody except the government knows? Well, I have made my own explosives, out of materials that any child can obtain, and could make my own gun if I wanted to. Should the government require me to give up that knowledge, or forbid me to talk to others about weapons? Should my shovels, pitchforks, pickaxes and slingshots be regulated? What about my chainsaw?
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 2 months ago
    You can't enforce culture by law. And the problem of violence is universally a cultural one. We used to have a culture in the United States where gun ownership was a standard staple of life and every kid knew that you never touched Dad's guns without his permission or you would never get your own! My dad had a .22 he would go out with nearly every day when he was 12, yet he never shot anyone. My kids go out with me at least once a year and are required to properly care for and fire ALL my firearms. They each have their favorites of my collection (which is still very small), but they can also recite the basic four laws of gun safety (because they are required to before they pick up a firearm).

    In today's culture, the only firearms kids ever pick up or actually handle are digitized ones, where death and wounding are abstracted and "head shots" are the ultimate mark of skill in first person shooters (and I have a brother and a brother-in-law who are very good). And so kids are either desensitized to the realities of the violence in firearms, or they are cavalier in their realm of "Oh, I'll just re-spawn." This could be seen in the heckling and jeering that occurred at the scripted CNN bloodfest where high school students were given scripted remarks calling Senator Marco Rubio and Dana Loesch murderers because they support they NRA. Anyone truly horrified at the murder they had just undergone at that Florida high school would have recoiled - not cheered - at the prospect of an actual murderer standing before them.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ elfshelf2 7 years, 2 months ago
    Brilliant. I’ve been failing to imagine a logical progression of potential gun lethality vs. required testing/permitting licenses since Valentine’s Day. Adding liability requirements solves everything. ‘Tis a lovely dream.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Haha...We used to play with toy guns at that age. I carried an air rifle with me everywhere at 9 - lived in a remote location on an island. Now...my kids are into Minecraft...It's like crack to kids.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by 7 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The idea is the the liability insurance company would not risk insuring someone on pysch meds, or at a cost that would be prohibitive, similar for auto liability insurance for a high risk operator. Without insurance, no gun license. No gun license, it's illegal to have it in their possession. And while the government won't take the time to check out the gun owner (that is unless it's the ATF regarding the transfer of a registered machine gun) a liability insurance company will before they take a multi-million dollar risk.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ kddr22 7 years, 2 months ago
    I have seen many teens in my office on pysch meds who have no business having guns and know many younger children who hunt responsibly. Any laws have to be clear concise and standard. Parents also have to have responsibility for their own children. The real error of this last shooting was the poor handling of real preventive/ credible tips given to the FBI that they ignored. This was a preventable case.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 2 months ago
    Do you have any young children of your own at this time? It's not like when I was a kid. The kids are very different now. Society is also. Man...we could talk for hours over a beer on this...
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 2 months ago
    I have passed exams on gun skills, and laws. So...it's not like buying a stapler. Guns aren't the problem, really. The problem is men on psych meds between the ages of 16 and 23 with access to guns. Often, these shooters have already broken enough laws or simply demonstrated instability to the point that they shouldn't have the guns at the time of the incident. (the laws are already in place). Affecting my use of firearms won't help anybody. Of this, I'm sure.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 2 months ago
    I agree with the tenor of this, but I'm always afraid increasing gov't power is a slippery slope. I definitely agree that age is not the way to go. It feels like a slippery slope. Plus we already have a problem of people not becoming men and women fast enough, IMHO. We have teenagers who need their parents to go with them to do basic things, and we have people up to 26 on their parents' health insurance. I think the age thing is just an attempt to ban guns, one they can pass right now because many young adults today admit they struggle with "adulting".
    Reply | Permalink  
  • 10
    Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 2 months ago
    Sorry, Second Amendment prevails. Feds don't have the power to do any gun laws.
    Reply | Permalink  

  • Comment hidden. Undo