Propulsion system works -- Nobody knows why?

Posted by robgambrill 9 years, 9 months ago to Science
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Well it turns out the Emdrive does produce thrust. The problem is that the engine appears to violate the principle of conservation of momentum.

So, it has been independently shown to work, but nobody knows exactly how it works. Some unknown quantum effect perhaps?
SOURCE URL: http://mashable.com/2014/08/02/emdrive-mars-momentum/


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  • Posted by Madanthonywayne 9 years, 9 months ago
    From Wikipedia:

    EmDrive (also Relativity Drive) is a spacecraft propulsion system proposed by British aerospace engineer Roger J. Shawyer, who develops prototypes at Satellite Propulsion Research Ltd (SPR),[1] the company he created for that purpose in 2000.[2] New Scientist ran a cover story on EmDrive in its 8 September 2006 issue.[3] The device uses a magnetron producing microwaves directed inside a specially shaped, fully enclosed tapering high Q resonant cavity whose area is greater at one end, upon which radiation pressure would act differently due to a relativistic effect caused by the action of group velocity in different frames of reference. The inventor claims that the device generates a thrust even though no detectable energy leaves the device. If proven to work as claimed, the EmDrive could allow the design of spacecraft engines that would be electrically powered and would require no reaction mass. Such an engine would be a breakthrough in airflight and spaceflight.[4][5][6][7][8][9]

    The device and its mode of operation are highly controversial. As of 2014, there are still arguments about whether the EmDrive is a genuinely new propulsion method, a misinterpretation of spurious effects mixed with mathematical errors, or a scam. The proposed theory immediately received virulent criticism because it seems to violate basic Newtonian laws of physics, notably conservation of momentum,[10][11] though the inventor insists on the contrary.[12] Chinese researchers from the Northwestern Polytechnic University (NWPU) in Xi'an first repeated the experiment in 2010,[7][13][14][15] then NASA in the Eagleworks Laboratories at the Johnson Space Center in 2014.[9][16]

    Should the EmDrive produce a real thrust, various conjectures have been made to explain the underlying physics. Shawyer claims the thrust would be caused by radiation pressure imbalance due to group velocities of electromagnetic waves within the framework of special relativity. Dr. Yang from NWPU predicts a resulting net force using classical electromagnetism.[15] An alternative theory has been proposed in 2013 by Argentine physicist Fernando Minotti from CONICET, who explains the alleged forces on asymmetric electromagnetic resonant cavities by a particular class of scalar-tensor theory of the Brans–Dicke type.[17] Dr. Harold G. "Sonny" White, who investigates field propulsion at Eagleworks, NASA's Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory, notes that such resonant cavities may operate by creating a virtual plasma toroid that would realize net thrust using magnetohydrodynamics upon quantum vacuum fluctuations.[18] The named quantum vacuum based theories, however, can predict maximal efficiency of 3.33 nN/W, on the order of a millionth as much as EmDrive proponents claim.[citation needed]
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 9 months ago
    Even with a known mechanism, it is still cool! This is the sort of stuff (and the Alcubierre drive) that NASA should be dinking with (if we are paying them to dink out of our taxes - I'd prefer that space effort be totally privatized), not placating the Muslim nations because they have fallen behind the tech curve.

    "Impulse power only! Aye, capt'n!"

    Jan
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 9 years, 9 months ago
    If the device emits microwaves then it produces thrust for the same reason that solar sails derive thrust from photon pressure. While photons do not exhibit rest mass they do convey energy and considering E=MC^2 they have virtual mass. As a result they follow Newtons third law. This should surprise no one.
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    • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 9 months ago
      in other words, we are seeing energy converted into
      virtual mass, resulting in a translation of energy
      received into energy projected. through a converter.

      very fascinating, sir!!! -- j

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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
      "This should surprise no one."
      I agree completely. The force is "not particularly strong" b/c c^2 is not particularly small. You have to have some source of E. So the rocket equation is still in effect, contrary to what the article implies.
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  • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 9 months ago
    Careful how much we talk about this. If we discuss it too much the government will think there is something to it and want a piece of the action. And I'm sure they will throw a few trillion $ at it to make sure it works as it should. :)
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    Zen, on your suggestion, I went to their site and read their papers. Read my original comment. From their site: "no transgressions of these laws have been identified. The principle of operation is based on the well-known phenomenon of radiation pressure. ... This was demonstrated by work carried out in the 1950’s. (CULLEN, A.L. ‘Absolute Power Measurements at Microwave Frequencies’ IEE Proceedings Vol 99 Part 1V 1952 P.100) ... http://emdrive.com/principle.html

    It is the same principle as the laser, which itself began as an o-maser (optical maser) from the microwave amplification by stimulated emission of radiation. (Their theory paper here: http://www.emdrive.com/theorypaper9-4.pd... )

    As I said, this is interesting and has potential. What I found "baloney" was the hype from Mashable. "EmDrive Is an Engine That Breaks the Laws of Physics .... since it violates the law of the conservation of momentum. ..."

    The NASA paper was also interesting in that it only underscored the initial claim that the engine works with the wavefronts at relativistic velocities.
    "Test results indicate that the RF resonant cavity thruster design, which is unique as an electric propulsion
    device, is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon and
    therefore is potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma. Future test
    plans include independent verification and validation at other test facilities. -- http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.n...

    "... not attributable to classical ... and therefore ... potentially ... quantum ...." I do note that the NASA test also produced an effect on the null test bed. Thus, they called it an "anomaly."
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    • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 9 months ago
      Mike; I agree with the comment about hype from Mashable. There a number of peer reviewed papers and at least three demonstration projects and all seemed to explain the physics, except NASA.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
    I got to look at a textbook from the dreaded "Waves and Fields" course over the weekend. That course is where engineers learn to apply classical electromagnetic theory. From what I hear, it can be a real "ball buster" if you don't have vector analysis down cold.

    Anyhow, in a regular wave cavity the photons just travel in zig-zag paths. Remember the angle of incidence thing? I don't think the design has or requires the photons to bounce back and forth between the "reflectors" parallel to the line of thrust, like what happens in a laser or maser.

    Also in a regular wave cavity, the photons just bounce around until they absorbed. They never escape. Even if they did, they wouldn't be going in any particular direction.

    B.T.W, engineers use resonant cavities in things like tv transmitters, cell towers and radar where the power output would fry any semiconductor. But the ones they design all have uniform cross sections. Designing something that shape to resonate is really out in the weeds.

    So, classical electromagnetic theory just predicts the thing will sit there and get warm.

    Lastly, back to Rand and who does what in our society. It is up to the boys at S.P.R. ltd. to prove it works. It's their baby.

    The Chinese say they tested the Idea and said they got it to work. That got the attention of the guys at NASA. They probably assigned their least favorite "Quentin Daniels" to go look at it and he found something he couldn't explain. Hopefully he volunteered, because I don't think that that would be a plum assignment (you could come out looking really foolish if you screw up). At least the guy says he needs to run more tests.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 9 months ago
    Wasn't Albert Einstein's Nobel Prize not for the Theory of General Relativity, but for his work on the photoelectric effect, which is in essence the fundamental concept behind this engine?
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  • Posted by LibertasAutLetum 9 years, 9 months ago
    Junk science. If it had any potential at all I can tell you one thing for certain, they would NOT be releasing any images of it.
    If they claim it "works" but they don't know how, then it simply doesn't work.
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  • Posted by barwick11 9 years, 9 months ago
    May be applicable here, maybe not, but the asinine theories about quantum mechanics are completely freaking wrong. The idea that any object can have a non-deterministic location is utterly absurd.

    The scientists who founded modern science did so because they were, *gasp* Christians, and in their knowledge of the Creator, they knew that He was unchanging and utterly reliable. Therefore, they postulated that his creation may also be reliable and not based on the "whims of the gods" as was widely believed at the time.

    Now, we have a whole new voodoo science called quantum physics, going back to the days where things are non-deterministic... it's stupid. I'll tell you something... God does not play dice. Einstein had it right to begin with on a lot of these things, and then just went off the deep end.
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    • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
      You're joking, right? Please use Ironic Font when making such statements? Thanks.
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      • Posted by barwick11 9 years, 9 months ago
        Awesome response... Please enlighten me (beside "everybody knows...") how you are so certain the theories of quantum physics are correct
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        • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
          but the same objection can be applied in reverse... how are you or anyone else 'so certain' they're wrong?!

          That's why they're called 'theories'! That's what "science" is really about... creating 'theories' to try to explain and understand phenomena observed in the world around us.

          If a theory proves, through experiment, observation and repetition to ACCURATELY describe and PREDICT some phenomenon, it becomes 'accepted' or even called a "Law."

          If observation and attempted replication show that the 'theory' does NOT accurately and repeatedly predict, it's discarded or modified to see if it can fit what IS observed or predicted.

          What 'theories of quantum physics are correct' today may be changed or rejected OR proven to be accurate in the future.

          THAT'S what science does. To argue the veracity of a Theory is silly.

          Many 'theories' have been modified or proven OR disproven as new information has been discovered and/or measurement techniques have improved over the centuries.

          Please consider thinking about "theories" as 'today's explanation as best we know or understand it TODAY' and not as some cast-in-stone Truth Forever.

          If the predictive value of a 'theory' is found to not be accurate, it's wide open to modification or rejection.
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          • Posted by barwick11 9 years, 9 months ago
            Come now, here you sit on a board dedicated to logic and reasoning, and you're arguing the side of Neils Bohr and the instrumentalists. The very same people who wanted loose rules for science based on outcomes, not on the strict rules modern science HAD been founded (and operating) on for centuries.

            Einstein in 1927 argued for those rules of science. Bohr argued against them. He, being the bully that he was, along with Heisenberg, Pauli, and Dirac, shouted everyone else down until he got his way, and it became "the consensus". Schrodinger, Einstein, and deBroglie fought them, but ended up losing the fight.

            And so here we are.
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            • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
              Um, Bar, you may have misunderstood one or more of my points, but I can't even figure out which one... :)

              "Consensus" is what kept the Geocentric "Theory" alive for a lot longer than it deserved.

              Einstein postulated a whole raft of Theories, some of which took many decades to be verified because 'instrumentation' couldn't even do experimental measurements accurately enough!

              "Loose rules for outcomes"??? No! A theory describes the expected result from experiment and subsequent measurement. When the experimental results stabilize close to some 'final value' "Scientists" eventually decide that it might not be worth the time, effort or money to wring that extra few decimal points out of the answer. Actually, the folks funding their research have that influence. Pure research is a "forever goal."
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              • Posted by barwick11 9 years, 9 months ago
                Not "loose rules for outcomes", not sure where you got that quote from, please re-read what I said. "Loose rules for science based on outcomes". Kinda like liberals do... everyone must be equal... at the finish line... so they modify the start line.

                In this case, these scientists modify their preconceptions and say "since we see this in the end, the beginning MUST be this way because that's what they must be to fit our theory"
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    • Posted by teri-amborn 9 years, 9 months ago
      I have considered these thoughts for quite some time now and think that Christians (probably more fitting would be Catholics and Protestant denominations) context drop and concept swap when the thought of "unchanging God" arises.
      The quote mentioned is from Jeremiah ...who had capricious patenting. God was reassuring him that nothing would change between their relationship.
      Jesus operated in the realm of the sub-atomic. That is how water is turned to wine and food is multiplied.
      Eventually we humans will find a way to do the same.
      I think this is all very exciting.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    This is baloney. As described, it glides over the fact that it needs energy input. After that, yes, the microwaves (ahem) "bouncing around inside" will leave to produce some small thrust as stated. It is interesting. It could be worthwhile. Nothing is mysterious here, except as the hype attempts to make it so.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
      I don't normally look at Mashable. There, the discussion started off with U.F.O's so I re-posted here to see what you all would think.

      Let me see if I understand what you guys are saying about the source of the hype.

      When the NASA guy says

      "... is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon"

      he probably would have been more correct to say something like

      "..is producing a force who's mechanism is not clearly understood".

      Maybe the guy is just trying to get his research grant renewed?

      Still the idea of a propulsion system that does not expel mass sounds pretty cool. If you don't have to carry propellent and it does not require sunlight, it could be a way to send probes into interstellar space.
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      • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 9 months ago
        I'll wait for more experimental results and experimental replication.

        Some decades ago, a claim of an 'antigravity generator' was "demonstrated" using simple tools like an electric drill, some swinging weights and a bathroom scale.

        Turns out, it didn't meet any claims. It seems that the only thing really discovered was that when a bathroom scale "weighs" something that's vibrating all over the place, it's nowhere near "accurate."

        I'll wait for replication, thanks, but it's either a fraud OR there IS something 'doing it' that we don't understand YET.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
        "Still the idea of a propulsion system that does not expel mass sounds pretty cool."
        I think it does expel energy, which means if you made a precise measurement it expels mass.
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