This one quote shows what angry white guys mean when they talk about government overreach

Posted by $ nickursis 6 years, 5 months ago to Culture
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An Interesting discussion on a weird topic tha actually meshes deeply to the root of all the social angst we have, as well as an Ayn Rand question. Do you have the right, to modify your truck to "roll coal" or emit heavy black smoke, as a way to express your discontent and outright hatred for a system that imposes it self upon yu? Do you do unto others as they have done unto you? How does perception of wrong, vs actual wrong (and how would you ever determine it?) fit together with today's manipulation and deciet?
SOURCE URL: https://www.vox.com/2016/9/9/12843120/rolling-coal-government-overreach


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  • Posted by rbroberg 6 years, 5 months ago
    There's no "right" to pollute. There is also no right for a government to govern pollution. Property rights govern pollution. The market for clean air or clean water is what drives pollution reduction. It is the same concept as purchasing insurance or AAA. Exhibit A from the Article is just an example of crass stupidity.
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    • Posted by term2 6 years, 5 months ago
      When you have common "public" areas, there are no property rights established really, so there is no prohibition on pollution. If it drifts onto someones land, I would see that as violation of rights.
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      • Posted by rbroberg 6 years, 5 months ago
        Public areas are owned by the public, whatever that is. Pollution would have to be governed by public laws. We could have judged the effectiveness of that system by taking a stroll through the Central Park in the 1980's, before the "I-am-a-taxpayer" argument became popular enough to force politicians to enforce certain laws.

        Since the only public spaces would, in Objectivism, also be government facilities, then police, military, or judicial rule would govern those spaces.

        Regarding the public sphere polluting the private sphere, yes, you are absolutely correct; it is a violation of rights.
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        • Posted by term2 6 years, 5 months ago
          But how can a government which taxes its citizens to supposedly purchase the public lands have private property rights. I could understand if the "town" was a private corporation with stockholders who put up the money to buy certain spaces and then own them- but the taxation part of our government I think nullifies any right they have to control those spaces.
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          • Posted by rbroberg 6 years, 5 months ago
            I think we are beating a dead horse, because I think we agree on the principles. The government should not accept funding from its citizens without their express consent. The parks, lands, reserves, etc. owned by the government should probably be divested in the same way that schools need to be moved to a private system.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
        The moment it impacts me, in any way, it becomes my problem, and I am going to do what I can, and the legal system is wholly inadequate to the task, too many costs, too much corruption and politics.
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        • Posted by term2 6 years, 5 months ago
          The legal system in the USA rests on basic flaws in the constitiution unfortunately- such as very inconsistent protection of private property. It’s not ok for me to steal from you, but it is ok for all levels of government to steal from both of us for example to do what it wants
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    • Posted by lrshultis 6 years, 5 months ago
      Government never acts by rights. It, when legal, acts by permission of the law. Only individuals have rights, despite what some here consider to be rights rather than permissions under law. No right requires permission from governing law.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
        Then why do you need a permit to exercise your 1st Amendment right?
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        • Posted by lrshultis 6 years, 5 months ago
          The freedoms that the First Amendment innumerates are anti-government dealing with certain human actions. You do not have freedom to force your religion, speech on others, so some in society make laws about making it possible for some to force their speech through music, protests, etc., by requiring permits. For example, in the village where I live, it has been decided by the government that some ordinances prohibiting forcing amplified band instrument noise to be allowed for certain groups, such as the local resort, by permit, kind of a might makes right approach. I personally would like quiet all the time except for traffic, property maintenance, and construction. Would you prefer that there just be freedom to force your ideas and pleasures on others without any redress by government or private property considerations? I understand that government is necessary to keep uncivil persons from forcing themselves on others and self government actions such as door locks to help keep honest people honest. Otherwise, one should be free to believe whatever crap one wants, speak as one wants, one who is a member of the press should be free to report but not to violate private property, etc.
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          • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
            Your points are valid, I am not advocating any other, my point was " no right requires permisiion from governing law", and so, I should be able to say anything, anywhere, in any form I want, yet I have to get permits, etc, 1st Amendment was manipulated to say corporations can give all the money in the world to a candidate (basically legalized graft) and that is legal, and money does not speak, last looked. It makes no sense. I do agree the fundamental rule is everyone has a right to do whatever they want, unless it is impinging on others (like the amplified noise). In fact, I have fought that issue with my idiot neighbor, who was running jet engines. After 10 years of battling with a dysfunctional state, I had a deputy tell me "Why don't you get a very loud stereo, and point it at his house, and play it until he gives up" (Because there is no noise ordnance in this county, which is why they couldn't do anything to him). I did , it took 2 years of stereo war, and he has quit the jet engine thing, and the gunfire on my property line thing, as he knows I will nuke him. MAD is a beautiful tool when used. In your case, I bet if you find the money trail, you will find connections to the law that allows others to abuse you with noise. Oregon has a very detailed noise law, they just laid off the 3 people who could enforce it (in 1998) and never rehired them, so no one will enforce anything.
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            • Posted by lrshultis 6 years, 5 months ago
              You can say anything you want in public, though some places have laws about threatening speech and some phrases (big topic including business and personal signs and sizes of them, advertising , etc.). On private property, you can only say what the owner permits, otherwise you can be expelled from the property. Remember that liberty on private property is by permission only, on yours you are free as long as the action is totally contained within the property, otherwise you need permission from the owner for things like economic externalizations. That may be a problem in a society without public areas and very time consuming getting all the permissions for life off your property. Being free in action is not the same as having liberty to act. The latter is a legal matter dealing with laws or rules of groups which have control. enumerated rights tend to be liberties, while rights are actually in the 9th amendment which does not state any rights. Free action is something that one must decide if it is worth the trouble of being opposed. Acting freely only means that one has the capacity to act and not whether the action is acceptable to others or even to other animals or in nature for that matter. One's body can act but as in all actions, one needs to choose whether it is worth acting. There is the problem of repeating an action over and over trying to rectify a repeating situation and only resulting in reinforcing a subconsciousness to produce a stronger and stronger emotion the next time the mind sees a similar situation until one is totally ready for some psychiatric help. With me, I had tried to quite things down by police calls but found that they could do nothing. In one case, loud drumming from a neighbor, I quoted the law to the officer but he said "How dare you question my understanding of the law.", so that was it with the police. Trying to quiet neighbors just ended in stronger emotions about the situations. In a more recent case when the village permitted a charity rock concert two blocks away where I live, to talk in front of my home, I had to yell to be heard. I complained to the village and was told that if I didn't like it, I should sell my home and move away. This year, though, my complaint must have gotten to the right person and I could hardly hear the concert, even outside.
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              • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
                Well, good for you, I have had the same "If you don't like it move" comment from a County Commissioner, who was more interested in preserving an idiots right to shoot guns on my property line, than the state law on noise. My interaction with the cops was better, as they agreed that no one has the right to let their noise leave their property, hence the "suggestion".
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 6 years, 5 months ago
      I want to believe that works, but how is there a market for clean air?
      It seems to me, that pollution, including noise pollution is a only a charge to others, a involuntary servitude, and that cost should be paid by the user (creator of the pollution) to the affected, in accordance with a market price. Is that what you mean?
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      • Posted by rbroberg 6 years, 5 months ago
        Yes, why should government intervention be necessary to keep people from behaving obnoxiously? Social ostracizing is a perfectly acceptable form of behavior modification. If a dog shits on a lawn, is the owner of that lawn or the owner of that dog responsible to clean up the mess? The dog owner. I ostracize any dog owner who behaves in such a way.

        A second point: ownership is not a one-way street. You pay for people to take your garbage away and put it in landfills because you don't want disease in your house. You basically pay someone to dispose of what you own. That some large chemical conglomerate pollutes a river doesn't mean all that waste doesn't belong to them. They have still not legally transferred that property to another party. They need to clean up their own dog shit. And I believe most cities have laws against not picking up after one's dog.
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        • Posted by $ Thoritsu 6 years, 5 months ago
          If my neighbor is burning boat hulls in his yard all day, ostracizing is wholly inadequate.

          I go back to a cost to me, and many others. This action encumbers me. The person encumbering another without agreement, has essentially assaulted them. There should be a cost associated with this in some manner. Plaintiff in court with a precedent for the cost could work.

          I personally view this as a role for government to play. However, it should just be to assign that a cost should be attributed, and let the market proceed. My metric for government action is where a completely unregulated market will converge on a local minimum (e.g. a large company burning boat hulls). This is such a case.

          Maybe we are saying the same thing.
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  • Posted by mccannon01 6 years, 5 months ago
    Forgive me, but will someone please explain what on earth "white guy" as in race/gender has to do with any of this crap?
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    • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 5 months ago
      I was trying to figure that out myself. I’ve seen black guys do it, not a lot of Latinos buy diesels, they go for the used Chevy ¾ ton Vortec (cheaper). I’m not personally going to modify my $75,000 truck, so I guess I’m a white guy that won’t.

      Just another article portraying people in the Midwest or South as ‘idiots’, like their panic over the Whitefish Energy thing and $462/ hr. I kind of laughed at that one too (linemen do actually earn that much in most disasters). Whitefish is also a small business, and preferred under the laws that liberals crafted. It’s as if they are shocked that a small business in Montana could win against high margin / high overhead competitors.

      I think it’s passive aggressiveness - these types are pissy because they struggle to make their Prius payment, and big diesel trucks are expensive... I’m at a loss.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
        I have a Dodge 3500 Cummings, and it never occurred to me that making smoke like that would be a "protest". I am picky, I try to keep my truck FROM smoking.
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        • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 5 months ago
          How do you like your 3500? I need to get something in a few years w/ a dually for retirement, we'll be pulling a 46 foot Voltage 5th wheel (about 17,000 lbs loaded) around - will spend the first 6 months in British Columbia, Yukon, and Alaska with it actually - and I'll spend most of that hunting :)! . The 3500 dually is the one I'm generally considering and budgeting for.

          I tow a 30' ultra-lite travel trailer right now (much lighter - probably 6,000 lbs), so it's not an issue right now and I didn't want to daily-drive a dually, but I'll need the dual wheels and bed payload for the retirement setup. I have a Ram right now, love everything about it, except the dumb trailer mirror setup - it's either 3 feet out with the ghost-trailer look, or completely useless when folded in.
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          • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
            Look at the total capability, we got a haevy duty Allison tranny with it, but for power and torque, I don't think it can be beat (and no, it does not do "rolling coal"). Although, starting in 2012 I think, they now need to add DEF (Diesel exhaust fluid) which is an intense pain in the ass. My son is an E7 army mechanic, and also got his ASE cert, and says DEFT was a huge boondoogle that does more damage than good. But, aside from that, I have had my baby 13 years and had few issues except the damn breaks will eat pads/and or lock up (last event cost me 1800, with Chrysler picking up another 1000), but you can monitor them yourself. My real opinion is , other than the redundancy of 2 wheels in the rear for flats, duallys are totally useless in snow. I could not get it to go in 2" of snow with no weight in the rear one year, so you may want to really think the dually part, the 4 wheels seem to go anywhere. I do like the fact I can get parts aftermarket pretty easilly, I replaced both my mirrors (and I didin't even know they folded up) for 100.00 and they fit perfect except for the gaskets. I have gotten other parts on Amazon cheap as well, so it is easy to keep up. I have a real issue with Ford's customer service so I will never buy another. If I was going to get another, it would be a Ram 3500 4WD, and skip the dually.
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            • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 5 months ago
              I’m not a fan of dual wheels either, but I’ll need it for the payload towing the fifth wheel, will probably be about 3000 lbs on the rear axle. I definitely agree otherwise, it’s why I’ll keep a daily driver pickup.
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              • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
                Thats the key, you need to make sure you can handle the rear axle weight. As long as that is a priority, look for that Allison, or whatever they use now, as it has been pretty good. I have 188K on it, and have finally reached the end of the adjustments for the bands, so I guess an overhaul is next.
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    • Posted by term2 6 years, 5 months ago
      To the left, everything is racial. If you are a white person and prefer vanilla ice cream, you are a racist. Same with preferring white chocolate to dark chocolate
      same with preferring milk chocolate over dark chocolate.

      Its truly nuts about this racism stuff. As long as one grants people of all races the same human rights, whats so bad about preferring people of one race or another ?? Anyway, most things that are declared "racist" today really have to do with cultural background and beliefs, and not DNA
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
        Oh, it is all a fabrication, but the sad thing is, a chunk of America really believes in it and will persecute you for it. I have had a few battles on FB with them and chased them off with "facts". They don't like "facts".
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    • Posted by rbroberg 6 years, 5 months ago
      Possibly the last group that for some unknown reason is "allowed" to be profiled.

      You didn't know its all your fault that the Vegas shooting happened? You look just like him... Oh right, profiling based on race, gender, etc. really does suck.

      Here's the good news! We can profile the author of this article as a racist liberal, and we wouldn't even be telling him something anyone else didn't already know.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
        I tend to throw it all back. I posted an article on Maxine Watters babbling about Trump, and labeled her all the same, only added "corrupt criminal" since she is also that, but she is more racist that the KKK klowns.
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    • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 5 months ago
      they didn't mention all the rice burners driving around with the catalytic converter deleted, cold air intakes, and can-mufflers.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 5 months ago
        I wonder about the measurable pollution level of those that are less than 20 years old. I know that one '99 with a malfunctioning cat can still pass emissions outside CA. Those are not in the same pollution class compared to these protesters. Noise pollution levels, perhaps in a few;^)
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
        I don't know but I have seen perfectly good cars with no issues fail in Portland, Oregon. Pisses people off too..
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        • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 5 months ago
          San Francisco with it's grid-locked traffic and generally junky-looking urban-dweller transports called a 'car', is generally exempted from emissions control. They do get checked, but the test results & standards they have to meet are much, much lower than the rest of California.

          Why? Because the offshore winds blow their shit into the Central Valley... so the Central Valley residents have much higher standards to meet because their air quality is so poor. The voters in the Central Valley are also generally more Republican (actually California is very, very red if you take off San Francisco, Sacramento, and Los Angeles). There are people that also keep a mailbox account in Alpine or Modoc County or some other non-populated area, just to register their car there and avoid the smog standards.

          But the libs have always taken a "do as I say, not as I do".
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          • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
            Well, I have a reservation in for an Elio 3 wheel car, at 84 mpg and PZEV. I think it is cool, and gets me the economy I want for my 62 mile one way commute. I have a 2015 Hyundai Elantra that gets 40 mpg, and is comfy. No emissions required if you live outside the UGB of the socialist state of Portland.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 5 months ago
    I see the right to pollute on purpose in a simple (maybe naive) way. You can do whatever you want as long as you make those whose property you devalue "whole", i.e. clean up your mess. You can examine the market price for properties around a lot of soot and smoke and how much more they pay for properties without air pollution. You can calculate how many people get asthma or health problems and how much customers are willing to pay for treatment.

    This gets the gov't out of the business of determining what's worthwhile pollution: my 15 year-old car, cracking a window while the furnace is running to reduce humidity in the house, going to a water park, jet travel for pleasure, lighting a bonfire for the Solstice, riding an ATV, flying a Cessna for pleasure --- we should be out of the business of judging and just make people pay for their mess. I think intentionally making an engine pollute is incredibly stupid, but my opinion shouldn't stop people from doing whatever weird things they enjoy.
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  • Posted by Storo 6 years, 5 months ago
    First, it doesn’t matter if you have ”the right” to protest via coal rolling. You just do it if you want to. Most protests and protesters don’t look to see if they have the right to protest.
    Until this piece I had never heard of “coal rolling”. Seems to me that if we focus on coal rolling itself, we miss the point.
    Like so many other pieces written about those who are upset at where the country is going, this piece attempts to apply the drive-by media’s standard labels: white male, white nationalism, ethnonationalism, and the like, going so far as to say that at the core of the GOP is White Nationalism. Oh but that it were.
    So what is Black Lives Matter if not populist/socialist/nationalism? What is the LGBT movement if not nationalist and populist? What is La Raza if not an Hispanic nationalist/populist movement? Seems that all these groups and more can be populist or nationalist and it’s OK. But be white, and stand up for your rights and you are suddenly fascist, populist nationalists; the reason is that the leftist populist/nationalists want to classify whites with Nazis and the KKK.
    Most Republicans and nearly all conservatives do, in fact, stand for small government. Most stand for economic freedom, and, yes, the nuclear family and national defense. (Interestingly there was a piece I saw today where a college professor says that the white nuclear family promotes White Supremacy! http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/31/... )
    The media portrays Trump as a white populist/nationalist. Maybe that’s true. If so, is it not an appropriate reaction to Obama’s populist/multicultural globalism? And what makes Trump’s populist nationalism evil and Obama’s good? Again, Nazis and the KKK.
    For 8 years Americans watched while Obama and his minions attacked every traditional value that exist in this country. The message was: Yes, we are going to destroy that, but not for “people of color”, illegal immigrants, the poor, the “under-privileged”, blacks, women, etc., etc. So you take out all of these populist groups and what’s left? White Males. And the writer wonders how our government can adopt this socialist, egalitarian, racist, sexist globalism and not expect some kind of reaction from those who are the targets.
    Both Obama and Hillary Clinton made what is probably the clearest statement ever made by either one when each said they were going to war against coal, and were going to put them out of business. So who works in the Coal Industry? Far and away White Men. So why shouldn’t they respond?
    According to TheAlternativeHypothesis.com those in the economic top 40% of taxpayers in the US, the group which pays 97.7% of taxes paid to the US Government are overwhelmingly white at roughly 77%, and a huge proportion is white men. So why, again, should they not react and respond when they see their tax dollars being used to promote an agenda that ultimately marginalized them in favor of illegal immigrants who take the jobs of the white “working class”, women who take their white collar jobs, other “people of color” who get the bulk of college scholarship money, preferences in hiring and services, and all the rest.
    Coal rolling seems to be just a symbol of white male anger among working whites, primarily because the government HAS been co-opted to favor Other groups against them, they HAVE been ignored and marginalized, and the war on them is being conducted by the political establishment using their own hard earned money.
    What they should do is go Galt.

    I must, for the record, correct a statement made in the piece. As a founding member of the Tea Party, I can state without qualification that the Tea Party was NOT formed as a result of Obama’s election, but was a grass root reaction to the continuous failure of the entire government to address the country’s financial problems - the national debt and deficit spending. It was only in the sense that Obama’s populist agenda to “spread the wealth around”, and that at public expense, was seen as additional deficit spending was the Tea Party anti-Obama. However, the people who support the Tea Party were and still are equally opposed to deficit spending and increased national debt under George W Bush, and will also be opposed to such policies under Donald Trump.
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    • Posted by mccannon01 6 years, 5 months ago
      Nicely put, Storo.

      The link to the self-hating professor is quite telling of the liberal hate all white people racial ideology. It seems to promote white self genocide. Actually, if you take her quotes and substitute the word "white" with any other race/ethnicity the results is just as asinine. She's definitely brainwashed into the new Jim Crow.
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      • Posted by Storo 6 years, 5 months ago
        There is one thing we should give Obama credit for - empowerment. Oh, not for whites, or people who work and pay taxes, or Christians, or conservatives, or even Republicans. No, he empowered all of the radical, leftist, racist, socialist, communist groups to go after all of the above groups with guns blazing, and made them believe that the End Of Days is here for all of these groups and traditional America.
        By doing this, Obama has done us a great favor by having them come out of the shadows and expose themselves. We now see more and more of them in all their hateful, hypocritical glory. Like Hollywood now falling apart due to sexual misconduct, or the Antifa fighting fascism by being fascist and beating people up in the streets. And like the author of this piece who wants to believe that all white people have no right to fight back or stand up for their rights and liberties.
        We see these people more and more, and find out just what lunatics they are.
        So thank you, Barack. You have at last been of some service to your country! Oh........wait. That’s Kenya. Ok, so you’ve done that service for MY country. Works for me either way!!
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
      Good points and the Tea Party thing is an ongoing fantasy that Fox likes to propogate. Hannity spit it out tonight. The whole point isd the entire system keeps diverting attention from the fact that most people are fed up with ALL government, bot parties and all the special interest groups. The fact they all try to play the "others" off on each other is just more fuel for the fire.If the Tea Party could assert itself and divorce itself from the Republicrats effectively, they could be the third party needed.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 5 months ago
    I nearly vomited trying to read the nonsense in this article. It is so obviously a piece from someone who wishes this was an accurate reflection of reality that it makes me gag to think that people can delude themselves to this point.
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    • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 5 months ago
      Yeah, I was pretty disgusted with it myself. Shocking to see how far apart we are from the other side. I keep thinking this is going to descend into a second civil war sooner or later.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 5 months ago
        I fear you may be correct. The one mitigating factor I take some small comfort in if that does happen is that most of those advocating for war are those who chose to disarm themselves.
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        • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 5 months ago
          For 11 months we have listened to Russia Russia Russia! - only to see it show up as a "break glass in case of emergency charge" from basically from 8 years ago, a spun-up money laundering charge over-amped into a "conspiracy against the United States" for leaving money earned overseas in an offshore account, and it's "pro-Russian" Ukrainian government elements, not "Russia Russia Russia"... at a time when we were technically arming Ukraine.

          And when did we become sworn enemies of Russia anyway? The Cold War ended in 1989, and while they have a scheming foreign policy - so do we.. hell, Obama was actively engineering the Israeli election to oust Netanyahu because he wouldn't play ball with the Iranian deal.

          My long memory recalls when the dems and Hillary were hugging Russia with a "reset button", and Hillary was approving strategic commodity sales (uranium) to a Russian owned corporation while her husband pulled in a million-dollar speaking fee 24 hours later... The only reason I can actually see that the Russians would NOT want Hillary as president is because it might have gotten expensive having to buy her smile or signature at a million dollars a pop. Let's be honest, she was a political vending machine, there is not much to not like about that if you are a special interest or foreign power...

          Having been a Cold Warrior, I can speak from experience the Russians are very much like the US. They value their families, they value their culture, and they want to keep on living their lives. It's what navigated us through the Cold War. They don't necessarily agree with our viewpoints (very often), but they respect our right to exist and when push comes to shove, we can make a deal with them. Above all, they really do value stability around the world, and good or bad (for them), a strong United States equals world stability and economic growth. The world has lurched for 16 years through the strongest organized fighting force in the history of the planet (the US military) struggling to defeat rag tag bands of fanatics hiding in caves with RPGs, an obscene growth and reach of US intelligence, and the growth of a corrupt political class.

          Maybe, just maybe, they were doing the world a favor by deciding that "enough was enough".

          The sure-fire way to end the global war on terrorism, is if American, Chinese, and Russian forces worked together to end this. Russia has not been "untouched" by terrorism either, and it's economy still needs rebuilding. It's very possible their goals and interests are not "evil" in their intent. These problems have basically cropped up following the collapse of colonialism and the strong spheres of influence of the Cold War.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 5 months ago
            Terrorism is one area in which the Russians and US could work very closely indeed. The Russians have not forgotten the Chechnyan slaughters, nor are they untouched by the radical Muslims. The Russians are just smart enough not to tolerate ANYTHING Islamic in their nation (though they are more than happy to sell Islamic nations their weapons).
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 5 months ago
    Of course, the people regulators will examine anything that's fun and seek to ban it. There is room for naughty. By that I mean the childish pranks that adults often play to get a thrill or a laugh. Note the word childish. So what if a person wants to act like a kid, so long as any damage is minor and kept to an individual. When I was a kid (pre teen) we'd fill a brown paper bag up with dog poop and set it on fire on the person to be tormented's front porch. If things went as planned, he'd stomp the fire out with his foot and carry the poop indoors. Naughty? Yes. Nasty? Perhaps. But it was a howl.Black smoke? Pfffft. Got off easy. I spent two years of Halloween in Worcester, MA. Those kids went for the jugular. They poured home made library paste all over a guy's car and then covered it with confetti. It washed off, but I heard some new expletives that November 1st. Childish pranks, but also an expression of freedom and the punishment when caught was doled out by secretly amused parents.I can hear Grandpa now, "Ay-Yi Herbie.Doing nasty pranks. Is this a Jewish occupation? Shame on you." We don't need another stinkin' law.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 5 months ago
    Interesting on rights to pollute, but far more interesting is whether this negative view of Republicans is at all true. This article describes how I see the Republican brand: Promoting a "zero-sum game" of demographic groups locked in struggle with one another to get an expensive, intrusive, and authoritarian gov't to wield power for their own side-- the quintessential enemy of ideas in Ayn Rand's books. This view may be partly Democratic propaganda, but it rings true.
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    • Posted by Kittyhawk 6 years, 5 months ago
      I think "a zero-sum struggle between identity groups to wield authoritarian gov't powers to hurt other groups" is the very definition of government itself. Republicans, Democrats, and every other broad or narrow interest group lobbies government to get their needs met at the expense of others.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 5 months ago
      I look at the Republican Party and see anything but conformity, which is why the broad-brushed strokes ring very hollow to me. You have the Freedom Coalition, the Old Guard, and the RINO's at the very least, with a smattering of libertarians. And it is the RINO's - those who continuously side with the Democrats (like Murkowski, McCain, and Collins) - who are the ones who promote the zero-sum game you talk about because that is what the Democrats push as well.

      The Democrats - on the other hand - are monolithic and consumed by lust for power. The revelations about the Uranium One deal now implicate everyone with any power during the Obama Administration for outright treason.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 5 months ago
        "You have the Freedom Coalition, the Old Guard, and the RINO's at the very least, with a smattering of libertarians"
        That's true. I didn't mean to suggest there were monolithic. I was saying that authoritarian-govt zero-sum group struggle thing defines their brand for me, even though they have libertarians and other groups.

        "The Democrats - on the other hand - are monolithic "
        They're only monolithic in being disgusted by President Trump's antics and the alt-right. They have many huge disagreements. The most obvious example is Sanders vs Clinton.

        I think the Uranium One deal is a total nothingburger, pure politics. I'm glad people have a political motivation to look into things like this. I wouldn't want a one party system. Right now I see nothing at all there. The two parties are supposedly deeply divided, but the main thing they're divided on is that they see the other has having committed some crime on technicalities like undisclosed conflicts. It sounds like nothing to me.
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        • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 5 months ago
          Sanders v Clinton as a huge disagreement? That's like saying Mao's communism is different than Stalin's communism. And what I would ask of you is to seriously consider why you would support a political party whose mechanics of super-electors encourage the very behavior Clinton took advantage of to secure the nomination?

          "I think the Uranium One deal is a total nothingburger, pure politics."

          CG: Pull your head out of the sand. There is a five-alarm fire blazing on this one. You really shouldn't so casually disregard it. It is the blackest of stains on the Democratic Party because it is the very corruption and foreign-government influence peddling they accuse of Trump and his campaign - and it was covered up far worse than Watergate. And the one prosecuting the Trump campaign was right in the thick of things when it was happening.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 5 months ago
            "Sanders v Clinton as a huge disagreement? That's like saying Mao's communism is different than Stalin's communism. "
            I don't follow this. Weren't they actually different? You could couldn't say all believers in Communism at that time were essentially a monolithic force.

            "There is a five-alarm fire blazing on this one."
            I'll be shocked if I one-day realize I was wrong and there was something to this. If there is, I am completely fooled. I see nothing at all there.
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            • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 5 months ago
              "Weren't they actually different? You could couldn't say all believers in Communism at that time were essentially a monolithic force."

              Same principles, just different people trying to implement it. That's why I don't see a huge discrepancy between Hillary and Bernie. Did Sanders get jobbed out of the nomination? Absolutely. I just shake my head at Democrats who are complaining that somehow it should be fair when their own system is so obviously rigged by the inclusion of super-delegates.

              "I'll be shocked if I one-day realize I was wrong and there was something to this. If there is, I am completely fooled. I see nothing at all there."

              Selling raw uranium to a political and ideological enemy is bad enough, but 1/5th of the entire US raw storage and to an entity which knows exactly how to turn it into the very weapons to destroy us? And that that sale had to be approved by the State Department - who was run at the time by Hillary Clinton and who not-so-coincidentally was receiving large donations to the Clinton Foundation and who's husband was paid $500,000 to speak to the Russians and none of this even smells the slightest bit fishy to you? And then the revelations that the FBI knew all about the Russian who was bribing to gain influence and get the deal done, and then covered up and whitewashed the investigation - even threatening a whistleblower with Federal prison time? And the chain of who knew about the deal covers EVERYONE of any substance in the Obama Administration.

              If you can look at all that and still say you see nothing wrong, then to put it quite bluntly, you are a fool.
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        • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
          Boy CG, in another life, I am willing to bet you were an isolationist who believed Hitler and Japan were none of our business, until the bombs started dropping Dec 7. Clinton is indeed a criminal, and the whole Obama admin are too, it's just when you lie, lie, lose harddrives, lose papers, burn them, "I forgot" and "I can't recall", then you can reasonably expect SOME people to do the "Ican't believe that happened". I assume that in your business you don't mind when customers tell you they sent you a check, and one never arrives? I mean, you can't PROVE they didn't send you a check, right?
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 5 months ago
            "I am willing to bet you were an isolationist who believed Hitler and Japan were none of our business, "
            I am such an isolationist right now. If the choice is between maintaining a standing army plus permanent weapons industry or pulling an armaments industry together as needed as in WWII, I'm unequivocally for the pre-WWII model.

            "you can't PROVE they didn't send you a check, right?"
            What does this analogy mean? Does it mean you know to a preponderance of the evidence that major politicians are blatantly corrupt, but our institutions are unwilling or unable to put together a case, so they continually get away with it? I don't think that's true. If it is true and only part of the population that I'm not part of sees the problem, I wish they'd put together a fix. I wish they could explain it in a way that doesn't sound like just echoing politicians' self-serving claims that their opponent is a crook. The simplest explanation by far is that the claims are just politics, and our institutions for catching corruption are decent. I'm more concerned about all the money in politics that's legal but gives the appearance of impropriety. I don't know how to get rid of it. I think the whole idea of a gov't that's a big chunk of the economy is fundamentally the problem.
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            • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
              Another place we will disagree CG, major politicians ARE blatantly corrupt.You are missing the fact, the Republicrats are incredibly mute on the Hillary is a criminal issue, despite a never ending stream of evidence that demands she be put in jail. Obama and his administration were so blatant in their law breaking, to not demand they be held to account is to live in a state of absolute disbelief. That is your right, it is just I cannot make myself that naive. I am absolutely suspicious of anyone and anything connected to politics and government, because there have been no, none, 0 evidence to convince me they give a rats ass about anything but their own pockets, and special interests.

              Your last statement reinforces that, it is the reason there IS such a huge corrupt edifice called "The fed" followed closely by 51 little corrupt, evil children called "state governments".
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 5 months ago
      All political parties are coalitions of compromised values, so the "Republicans" may not all endorse the stupidity behind rolling coal, even though President Trump's administration provided the emotional fuel for what was a fringe fear group. Ayn Rand warned that John Kennedy's "New Frontier" was fascist. Donald Trump's "Make America Great Again" is all the more so.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 5 months ago
        Thanks for the sober commentary.
        "the "Republicans" may not all endorse the stupidity behind rolling coal"
        Yes. I agree. The important claim of this article is not about blowing black smoke but that Republicans stand for a zero-sum struggle between identity groups to wield authoritarian gov't powers to hurt other groups. That's why I say the article reads like Democratic propaganda, but it also rings true. I don't mean the coal stuff but rather President Trump speaking on policy issues.

        President Trump's supporters who are not his redneck idiot base say those of us who think that have been manipulated by the media who try to sabotage Trump by wrongly associating him with racism, nationalism, etc. Okay. If that's true the media are doing a good job of it. The tie to rolling coal is a stretch for me, but the conclusion seems true.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 5 months ago
    I think these modifications are already against laws of many states at least in metro areas. I am fortunate to live where I am not compelled to have my exhaust inspected by bureaucrats every year to renew a car tag, but I voluntarily keep my vehicle in shape so it doesn't spew out excessive pollutants. The GOP has never stood for liberty and it never will regardless of it's party propaganda. This is another non issue that idiots in congresses use to expand powers of government. Secession is an idea that should be foremost in the minds of all who favor liberty.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 6 years, 5 months ago
    Some people have that attitude. I do not believe that you have a right to force your smoke on other people, anytime, anywhere you want. I do not believe you have the right to force your (yuckh!) cigarette smoke on other people in a closed-in space. (This, of course, depends on who owns the space. I am against government laws prohibiting smoking in privately-owned res-
    taurants; but in a place owned by all people there, such as a jury room, that would be different). I do not go along with the "nationalistic" attitude. Irving Berlin, who wrote "God Bless America", was a Russian-born Jew.
    And so, for that matter, was Ayn Rand.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 5 months ago
      I agree with you points, except the "nationalistic" one, and not because I believe in that particular idea, but because I believe there has to be some sort of relationship between citizen and state. It is just the damn state has become such an abusive monster in the last 200 or so years, but the fundamentals were sound, for their time.
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  • Posted by chad 6 years, 5 months ago
    I don't see any point in 'rollin' smoke' to get the government to change its mind about whether or not it can control you. It is very likely that the government will react to prove they can sending their enforcers with weapons and use the courts to 'legitimize' their actions. Trying to prove a tyrant doesn't have power to convince him not to use power encourages the tyrant to use violence to prove he has that 'right'.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 6 years, 5 months ago
    I am a proud Objectivist man whose ancestors came over from Europe to avoid the tribal ethic and pursue their own happiness. American is not a race, religion, color, or creed. It is an ideal.

    The historical presence of certain races in the country does not constitute any part of the American dream. It is, rather, the spirit of individualism and sense of life that distinguishes America from all other countries.

    Let those who seek to engender racism against minorities , "racialism" against non-minorities, or accuse other's of racism for judging behavior rationally be damned.
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  • Posted by 1musictime 6 years, 5 months ago
    What is a white guy? Who is a white guy? Who are white guys? What are white guys? Where is it starting? Are they at group meetings?Is it a way to interrupt computer writings and meetings?Where is one to locate white guys?If one is not the color, is it pollution?Is it ethnic, racial, political, and vehicle pertaining?
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  • Posted by Esceptico 6 years, 5 months ago
    Under the Common Law you could do whatever you want, so long as it does not leave your property. Put the truck in the garage. Smoke it up. When done, have somebody air out the place with filters to remove the smoke. Simple. Getting rid of your body because you remained in the truck is tougher.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 5 months ago
    Pollution is a violation of property rights. And that is the business of the government. I agree that markets will impel toward excellence, but government stands in where the markets fail because personal morality has failed. A polluter is just another kind of burglar or more correctly a vandal who just destroys your property without even making it his.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 6 years, 5 months ago
      Here's the problem: so long as we continue to regard "the air" as a common, we will deal with the tragedy, or the tyranny, of the common.

      Wanted: a means by which to define property rights, and damages, relating to pollution of air, land and water. Land is the easiest to define; water next; air hardest of all. Difficult, but scarcely impossible.
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    • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 5 months ago
      Actually, diesel soot is heavy and falls to the ground immediately. Gasoline emissions are fine particulates that get swept up into the atmosphere. The soot actually pollutes much less.
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