Christians have a couple main points in common with Rand: there are such thing as truth and absolutes, for example. Principles matter. Individuals matter. Further, Christians read a lot, and they do care about ideas. Finally, Rand was genius. As a Christian, I can recognize that. I love talking about her ideas. Might read Soul of Atlas for a look into this.

asked and answered. Yes, you can reason there is or there isn't a God. The answer is No.

S/he needs to read it again. Because s/he clearly does not "get it."

flanap has read AS. Twice. I suggest he read "Philosophy, Who Needs IT" next.

That question was answered in a novel published fifty-some years ago named "Atlas Shrugged."

Perhaps you should read it some day.

" I also wanted to point out that if Ted Haggert is going to be saved just because he accepts Jesus as his Lord, along side a perfectly rational and moral non-Christian, who in your book doesn't count because they have not accepted Jesus-
is irrational."

Why is that irrational? From a Christian perspective, the only way a grown adult can be saved is to accept Jesus Christ, if that was incorrect, then their would be no Christianity, obviously. And about the part of being barely self-aware, that's my opinion, not a christian one. I have been around some 50 odd years, I see people constantly do things that harm themselves, yet never stop, we call them bad habits. Often we are not even aware of our behavior until someone points it out, that's what I consider barely self-aware.

you referred to all people as being barely self-aware. I disagreed. I also wanted to point out that if Ted Haggert is going to be saved just because he accepts Jesus as his Lord, along side a perfectly rational and moral non-Christian, who in your book doesn't count because they have not accepted Jesus-
is irrational. That is on-topic and you Christians in here don't have a rational answer for it.

"being smug"? In no way am I trying to be. I apologize if you think that I am. I was trying to have a simple conversation and state my belief as a christian. I have studied the bible for almost two decades now and broken it down as much as worldly possible (I was a physics and molecular biology as well as a electrical engineering student before I was saved.) I can safely state that a person has to know the bible in it's entirety, from old testament to new, to only start to understand it, how one piece lead to the other. Taking scripture out of context only confuses things and often leads to "chinks in armor"

Not gonna get into it with you, flanap. You're a waste of my time, and you bore me.

So this thread ends here. But the answer to your question is, "the latter."

Again your not talking about what I'm talking about. Yes people can do amazing things, when they want too. But let's face it, we tend to not do our best at all times. Anyway I'm not sure why we keep going off track.

I'm just observing here. You're pretty smug in your belief system and that's ok, but you refuse to acknowledge there are any chinks in the armour of it. Where real, quantifiable, objective questions exist-you take little or big mystic jumps over, then accuse me of being extreme. Taking concepts to their logical conclusion is rational, logical-not extreme

Yes, and people are inherently evil. Thanks for your enlightened view of the World.
What about the people who created penicillin, the Golden Gate Bridge, the automobile, the laser, transistors, the airplane, rockets, satellites, telephone? Yep, barely self-aware.

Your statement doesn't make sense. We as people do have weaknesses, this is a fact. Be it in gambling, eating, or something, we partake in behaviors that are seldom good for our own self interest. People are not rational beings, that's another certainty. IMHO I think people are barely self-aware.

Actually no, but you seem to have taken things to an extreme. Always love talking with non-believers, it shows me just how they will make anything to suit their own personal belief system.

so you are made a slave to an unseen, all knowing, "parent" who will judge your actions with unknown criteria; all described in a 2000 year old book that is somehow more important than any other book, written before or after, based on irrational premises. Personal Freedom?? Yes, I agree you're exercising your personal freedom to give your freedom back up.

which is arbitrary and unreasonable. How do you square that concept with anything you read in Atlas Shrugged? it's like saying the moochers can mooch because they filled out all their paperwork correctly- c'mon-it's totally irrational

Christianity also preaches personal freedom, not as one would think but that if we are beholden to God we cannot become a slave to anyone else, meaning the Government.

"You often hear of Christian leaders and ministers falling from grace."

Yes it's true, although I'm not condoning a certain behavior, we all have our own weakness's. The only difference between a Christian and a person of the 'world' is we are forgiven for our sins.

I don't have proof. It is just my observation.

Do we have proof for your second sentence? Lots of things are done in the name of God I would not personally find moral. I might buy that among groups of individuals, certain types of individuals tend to be more moral than others. For example, people in this forum. You often hear of Christian leaders and ministers falling from grace. and these are leaders of large congregations. Before shrugging, I was in Colorado Springs. We had our share, let me tell you.