Open Letter to Libertarians: Why we will continue to lose until we are ashamed of being un-herdable cats.

Posted by ReneeDaphne 6 years, 6 months ago to Education
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Pregnant with the experience of working 8 months for Oregon democrats on the “Clean Water Fluoride Campaign” here in Oregon and a more recent spectacular disaster of a presentation on the “Principles of Libertarianism”, my tiny brain spawned "An Open Letter to Libertarians"….and please, critique it insufferably. I’d be grateful for any comments, especially the bad ones. All comments can be made below or if you really want to rip it to shreds, at www.principlesoflibertarianism.blogsp...

An Open Letter to Libertarians” is what I learned by my humbling failure and by working with democrats for nearly a year.

I’m confident you’ll enjoy the read. And it will give you insightful and undeniable evidence as to why we continue to lose. I also hope you will be curious enough to peruse and subscribe to my blog. It will have some rather provocative and entertaining surprises in the next few months and the starter blog is a favorite topic with many. www.principlesoflibertarianism.blogsp...

Live in the PDX metro area and want to get involved in fun stuff? Fun and creative events marketing libertarianism and the principles can be found at www.meetup.com/R3VOLution
SOURCE URL: https://principlesoflibertarianism.blogspot.com/


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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 6 years, 5 months ago
    Rather interesting. In 1980 I attended 2 meetings of the Libertarian Party but never joined. Ayn Rand repudiated that Party. Peter Schwartz once wrote an article in which he said that Party reject[ed] "the very idea of a fundamental idea".
    I do accept the Objectivist tenet that individual rights is the foundation of a free society.
    I well remember one time (about 30 years ago)
    when some people in the Richmond City govern-
    ment were trying to ghettoize us vendors and try
    to restrict us to vending on Brown's Island. They didn't get that passed. And there was the time they tried to knock us down to 1 (at least I think it was 1) per blockface ; the different streetvending
    businesses were together in having a petitiion, which we presented to the public, on the carts. However, I thought it might be just as well to do the same thing off-duty. First I went around in my own neighborhood. Then I went elsewhere. Eventually I went into the Northside area and knocked on doors. And I believe I turned in a record number of signatures for one individual, and our company turned in more signatures than any other. My boss-man even said that he hadn't at first thought that the off-duty tactic would work.--And, in the end, we won that battle. The measure went down to defeat. It was during that time that I composed the words to "The Street Vendors' Fight Song". (Same tune as "Battle Hymn of the Republic"). I'd like to make a "vendor's video" of it some day.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
      I agree with Rand - all parties suck. Good for you in getting the job done. Too many people just beat their lips instead of the street. I would LOVE to get the words to the Street Vendors' Fight Song - can you send - I'm a professional singer and raise a lot of hell at open mics and karaoke here in Portland.
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      • Posted by LibertyBelle 6 years, 5 months ago
        Sorry, I'd want to get those lyrics copyrighted first.
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        • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
          By the Berne Convention, your lyrics are already copyrighted the second they are reduced to material form (and no longer in your head). The US agreed to this in about 1990 or so. But....to be honest, it's much easier to GET someone to do your songs than to ever see any money from copyrighting anything. I do several songs by PROFESSIONAL songwriters (as in Nashville and New York). They market like crazy and only make money when a song is made a hit and lots of royalties come rolling in. I've recorded Tom Paden's songs - big deal. Until I'm famous, his song won't be. Just a reality check on the mafia run entertainment industry. Copyright registration only means the governments get their cut. The best thing you could do is have a copy of someone singing your song :-)

          Your call.
          I think the music is out of copyright but then, Happy Birthday doesn't seem to be. I would love to see them - I'm at ReneeDaphne@q.com
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          • Posted by LibertyBelle 6 years, 5 months ago
            The music ("Battle Hymn of the Republic" aka "John Brown's Body" aka "Shall We Gather in Canaan's Happy Fields"[?]) is certainly not under copyright now, or I could be prosecuted if I used it. But I could probably get the lyrics copyrighted for about $25. I once wrote a musical (the tunes were old tunes, mostly), I mean a libretto, and I got it copyrighted as an unpublished work. That was in 1978. It has never been performed. Somebody stole my typewritten copy, along with other stuff, in a burglary. I think I have another copy, very poorly typed; that's why I paid a typist to type it over before I sent it to the Bureau of Patents and Copyrights. But the neat copy I had of it from her is gone. I have not been able to find it in the National Archives, or whatever it is, to get a reprint; maybe because it has run out. But the whole thing needed more work anyway. I haven't had much time, trying to make a living, and now, being unemployed, trying to get a job.
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            • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
              Don't waste your money - it won't afford you any protection - you'll still have to sue if they use it and if they have deeper pockets, it may be a moot point. I would still love to hear your song. I do a LOT of songs by people I know and they have never been heard anywhere else. My favorite songwriter does some stuff that would get me lynched in Portland and I already sing a couple I have to be sure to be close to the door when I sing....just in case. Sounds like the libreto would have been really good.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 6 years, 5 months ago
    I have commented here before about how I am confused by the party. I'm not confused about Libertarianism, I don't think. But, that last presidential candidate?...Come on! Some here even defended him but he came across as a loon with a real convoluted message. I honestly started to think that the Libertarian Party was just being hijacked over and over and that's what we were seeing. Still think that might be the case.

    The message should be simple, repeated often. The message is so powerful. I, personally, know of very few people who would argue against fundamental Libertarianism.

    Perhaps the movement keeps being usurped by people who are preoccupied with legalizing recreational weed(?) as their main concern. I just can't figure the failures out...
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    • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
      I was hoping it was made clear why with the 22 things they do that we don't. It's not rocket science, it's just plain math. If you do certain things often enough, you will get rewarded with positive results. They do the stuff and we don't seem to have the time or want to spend the money.
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  • Posted by chad 6 years, 5 months ago
    Perhaps you should read "The Will To Bondage" by Estienne de la Boeite. Written nearly 500 years ago he had the astute observation that most people prefer bondage and will revert to it or even demand a stronger tyrant if they feel threatened by liberty. Estienne was looking back 1500 years to the Roman attempt at a Republic form of government and its failure. His ultimate conclusion was that in order to live free man may have to live unobserved (by the tyrants and the slavish majority of people) and that tyranny would probably be the norm for the human race until it dies out.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
      People see in others what they want to see. I have never seen a person who preferred bondage to liberty. What they prefer is not striving to striving and if people didn't stand up at Dachau when it was 4,000 to one, they aren't going to stand up now or in the future. It takes will, and that is what we are short on.
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      • Posted by chad 6 years, 5 months ago
        If asked directly they will always say they do not prefer bondage, if you package the bondage attractively they will choose it almost every time. Their preference for not striving makes them easy targets for Hitler, Stalin, Obama, Trump . . . list any name here.
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        • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
          I judge people by what they do and how they act, not what they say. That's how I know they don't prefer bondage. Being lazy they love, bondage, not so much. I also prefer not to make sweeping judgements by placing people in groups and talking about how they WILL act. My whole letter was about how the evidence tells you how you're failing and why. We ARE failing. We need to change tactics or continue losing. A lot of the marketing for the left is done through convincing the "many" just how dangerous we are (so they work doubly hard) while we laugh at them and downplay their successes. Whose the fool?
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          • Posted by chad 6 years, 5 months ago
            I judge people by how they act and not what they do. Since the majority of people have chosen to live under slavery I still maintain that they "say they don't want to be slaves while choosing slavery". This country is not a free country. Just because your are free to argue with and try to convince the left they are wrong if they succeed in promoting an illegal law that the courts uphold; i.e. the Affordable Care Act and you are forced to comply then you are not free to choose although you are free to complain. The freedom to complain while you are being hanged is not freedom.
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            • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
              You may be a little presumptuous in assuming you know what the majority of people have chosen. You are always and forever free to choose your reaction and response to every situation.

              Besides, who says any of us are a judge of another's "slavery"? There are a few people on this list which points high enough to qualify them as being a "slave" to this list.
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              • Posted by chad 6 years, 5 months ago
                Although you are free to choose how you react to a situation that does not make you free. If you live in a collectivist state you are still free to react how you want but it might get you killed or imprisoned for disagreeing with the state. That does not mean you are free. If you cannot act in accordance with your choices you are not free. I am not presumptuous in assuming what people have chosen I am observant. It is easy to determine when you can define slavery correctly. When you choose to quantify a word by emotion rather than reality you destroy the usefulness of the tool (language). I am able to judge 'another's' slavery by understanding the meaning of the word then observing their action. The human race for the most part is committed to slavery or else they could rid themselves of it by refusing to choose or obey it. When most choose slavery it makes it difficult for others to resist for the slaves will ensure that individuals don't break free.
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                • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
                  First, the word freedom is so coopted and bastardized it's useless as a descriptive term of anything. Liberty is much better. However, by your description that you are not free unless you can act "in accordance with your choices", then there is no such thing as "freedom". There are always opportunity costs to everything and therefore "influences" you choose to ignore or accept.

                  How do you "quantify" a word by emotion and since when are emotions NOT reality? Your argumentative style is a little loose when it comes to definition. Again, you are pontificating on what the human race does...please, you don't know but a tiny fraction of people on this planet so please leave off the "overview of humanity". I don't appreciate it any more than when it comes from the left. What are you doing to encourage others to make different choices?
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 6 years, 5 months ago
    I read the entire article. Liked it. Here are a few random comments and questions:

    1. On item # 10, I got lost in the pronouns. Not always sure which group “they” and “them” refers to.

    2. The anti-fluoride campaign relied heavily on volunteers, but a clearly professional operation of that size must have had significant funding. Who funded it, and why?

    3. You said the anti-fluoride campaign split the Democratic Party. Were the people you worked with “progressives” of the Bernie Sanders persuasion? Were the fault lines similar to those playing out within the Democratic Party on the national stage?

    4. You said “choice” was last on their list “Reasons to Vote NO on putting fluoride in drinking water”. What were the reasons that ranked higher? Perhaps libertarians could also use these reasons when engaging the voters on specific issues.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
      Thanks very much for your thoughtful comments. I also appreciate your questions.
      1. I agree with you on #10 and I'll work on that part.
      2. The other side NEVER has just one agenda working. There are many factions in the D party (just as there are in the R and L parties). They vie for power and control. This section wanted the strategy to go one way and took a stand on this issue (besides the city pushing it too far at last). There was a lot of mentoring from ???? but all the money mainly came from small donations under $500. Why? The only way you can get fluoride OUT of water is by reverse osmosis or "from the air" reclaimation...VERY costly and resource IN-efficient processes.
      3. I don't use those labels (progressive, conservative, liberal etc). They don't mean anything and no one can define them...not even the owners of the label. This was a turf war, plain and simple. Powerful unions against REAL activists who actually believe in what they are promoting. This was way pre-Bernie/Hitlery ittis.
      4. The reasons now are hard to remember as I didn't keep much of the literature. This link is from the NO side and references the YES side so you can see how things are "worded" https://fluoridealert.org/news/fluori....

      What libertarians need to learn is that end goals are different from action plans and strategy is not done with alcohol and a shotgun but with triage and a scalpel.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 5 months ago
    I sympathize.
    Way back in the 50's, I can tell you how Nathaniel Branden did it up until his break-up with Rand. It started with Branden touring Rand groups all over the place. FREE. Where he couldn't show, he sent a tape. Today he could send a video. This was the 50's after all. Then he sent out taped lectures that were played to an audience that cost them $10. The local sponsor paid for refreshments and the room. AV today would knock the presentation out of the park.Those at the lecture(s) would be asked to join the group (Ayn Rand refused to allow her name to be used). The Branden network became quite formidable within a year.Then came the silly explosive break-up and it all crumbled away. But that's the way Old Nathan did it and if I must say, quite successfully and patting myself on the back for participating.Most of all those guys and gals (The Collective) are gone now, Except for the former head of the Fed. He must be as old as a Redwood Tree.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
      It's unfortunate but the fact that the network broke up when the relationship did shows it was not built on much more than "personality". Ironic he called it The Collective. I have my own opinion of both of those folks but I keep it to myself as it's not very popular.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 5 months ago
        Rand's immediate group of brilliant people, including the aforementioned Alan Greenspan and others were laughingly called "The Collective" by Rand, as being an inside joke. (Yes, she did have a sense of humor.)
        As to the organization being built on personality, that is a tougher proposition than it appears by looking at it casually. Yes, Rand's personality and more importantly her intellect created an almost cult-like devotion. But unlike the Sunday TV preachers, it was her philosophy disguised as a story that brought devotees to her and through her to Branden. I came to know him though a psychologist friend of mine who was a friend of Branden's. He was a very bright guy, but the moon who reflected the light of the sun.
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        • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
          This why we need something more than "people" to make libertarianism and voluntaryism visceral enough for folks to get excited about them. I have a set of 4 principles I've been trying to get up someway on the internet and not figured out how yet. It's a PowerPoint and when I upload to DropBox - you only get the slides and no audio. If we had a set of "principles" to subscribe to that were more than just policy statements. It would go a long way to holding the ideas together.
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          • Posted by ewv 6 years, 5 months ago
            Ayn Rand did have a "set of principles" -- her philosophy -- and it takes much more than four statements. She was from the beginning opposed to being a personality as leader of an organized "movement"; she wanted those who agreed with her ideas to apply them in their own professions. She wanted a "philosophical or intellectual movement, in the sense of a growing trend among a number of independent individuals sharing the same ideas". She actively discouraged people from following her as a personality, such as when she discouraged lecture audiences at universities from breaking into wild cheering before she even began to speak, and did not want "Ayn Rand clubs" following her.

            The "network" that Branden built, originally for educational purposes but significantly deviating from that, collapsed because his organization ceased to exist when he collapsed intellectually and morally. There remained, however, a smaller and more intellectually serious network of those following the educational lecture series that continued. But that was never for political action. Organizing political action around a specific issue supported by an alliance of different kinds of people who share a concrete political goal is a very different matter.
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            • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
              Sounds like you might be into some guerilla tactics for education. We do a lot of that here in Portland. I wish there was some interest in enthusiasm these days. Everybody seems so lack luster in their "pursuit of liberty".
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  • Posted by $ jdg 6 years, 5 months ago
    Both gradualist and strict-principle approaches have their place. Each will produce gains the other won't, but the gains from a strict-principle approach are harder to measure because they happen in people's minds.

    I used to believe the LP was the best organization to demonstrate strict principle. When I figured out otherwise, I left the LP. (The LP's problem is that it won't even try to purge itself of kooks.)

    These days most of the good strict-principle material I see is on blogs, or from groups like the Mises Institute. As for gradualist groups, I like the Club for Growth, the Institute for Justice, and Pacific Legal Foundation (the latter two being lawsuit mills rather than campaigns for office).

    But all of these are so frustratingly slow to get results that I would still be very tempted by new-country projects.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 6 years, 5 months ago
    The problem is: where does incrementalism end and compromise begin? And how do you convince fellow libertarians that the answer still makes libertarian striving a practical matter?
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    • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
      Intent is what determines whether it's compromise or incrementalism. Libertarians continue letting "the perfect" be the enemy of "the good". With that purview, then only perfection can be considered the one true legitimate way. However, no step can be perfect unless the person is also perfect...which is probably never going to happen so no progress can be made.. Our problem is not making the right decision. Our problem is getting up out of a chair and taking the first step toward DOING anything. We are losing ground because we refuse to do the repetitive and boring job of "marketing what we value" to anyone but those who have already purchased.

      There was a time in the past when their collectivist crap was a really hard sell. What happened?
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      • Posted by ewv 6 years, 5 months ago
        Engaging in grass roots action is necessary to make a difference, but is often not sufficient. There are still realms in which you can appeal to common sense, but much of that is gone. You have to pick your battles where there is a chance of success. It is too soon for many of them because the philosophical basis is not widely enough accepted, and there aren't enough people who do understand to make getting out of their chairs effective.

        As for "There was a time in the past when their collectivist crap was a really hard sell. What happened?" -- "So long as the statist-altruist-pragmatist doctrine of the welfare state remained unchallenged, there was no other place to go." https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
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        • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
          The grassroots I engage in these days is "Free Marketing Advice" = I set up a table and tone all my advice in a libertarian fashion. It's working unbelievably well and the best bang for my activist hour that I've gotten so far. My point in asking the question was to find out if people realized we actually LOST liberty by our inaction and stupid insistence to be "left alone". They didn't take it.
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    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 5 months ago
      Political compromise and comprising on principle are two different concepts. In politics you have to 'compromise' to get anywhere -- there is no choice, but you don't have to concede your principles by endorsing what is wrong. Those who compromise their principles are doomed to fail. Fighting for the right principles affects which way the political trend goes as the political compromises accumulate.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 6 months ago
    This is an interesting view into the insides of a political org. It makes sense the party needs to be highly organized and have a systematic way of recruiting and motivating volunteers, as the article describes.

    As an outsider, it seems to me that a libertarian party needs to be a big tent with the only unifying principle being less gov't cost/intrusiveness. It should also, at least in my outsider opinion, purge any hardcore extremists or bizarre behavior. If there's one person who gets naked at the convention or says he wants to move the government to 18th century levels overnight, which we know will never happen, that is the story people will hear. I think it needs to present itself like a mainstream party that accepts the “reality” (for now) of gov't spending being over a third of the economy but promise always to turn toward less government at every fork in the road.

    Another huge danger is the two-party duopoly sucking libertarians into one side with wedge issues. Consider how Gary Johnson tried to walk the tightrope saying he wouldn't support new restrictions on vendors discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation, but he also refused to back any measure to decrease gov't control if it was primarily to legalize discrimination. This issue of forcing bakers to bake a cake is so lame and unimportant next to shrinking gov't, but the parties are good at making it the subject. If it even smells like how I (as a Democrat) see the Republican message, i.e. “We'll convince the poor to spend gov't money on you rich and connected people by giving the poor other people to pick on to make themselves feel like they're not at the bottom of the pecking order,” it would alienate me immediately. It has to be, IMHO, “we just want to spend less and intrude less, with no wedge issues.”

    An example from this article is the “George Soros express train to the dark ages.” I read his book and liked it. I support what he claims to be trying to do. Instead of making it about him, libertarians can be supportive of the things he says about expanding personal freedom without digging into whether Soros the person truly represents those values.

    The thing it says about the word “choice” not resonating with people is tough because I don't see the way to have libertarianism without increased choice. I know it's a marketing issue, but I find it hard to imagine real libertarianism appealing to people who are afraid of personal choice. I really hope that's wrong. I hope people want to live free making their own choices if only it's presented well.

    I loved the article's view from the inside of a political org. I've never even been to one or really talked to a serious volunteer/activist about.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 6 months ago
      I appreciate your thoughtful comments and reading the essay. I'm not sure what part of the country/world you live in but here in Portland Oregon, it's collectivist heaven. The thing about choice is true...the other side does their homework. Safety is much more valuable than choice to them.

      You may have misunderstood why I wrote the essay. It was mainly to point out why WE are failing, because we don't do any of things I mentioned. We just hope for the best.

      I've worked in dozens of liberty groups and it's always the same. They abandon all they know about what works in business the second they start working in politics.

      I was hoping this essay would turn on some light bulbs about what changes and strategies we need to employ if we want to start gaining ground. Apparently, I didn't do so well in that marketing exercise.

      Maybe we just don't want to win.

      As for a "big tent". I've seen the results of the "big tent" and it just brought in all the dross who want to label themselves libertarian and are NOT by a long shot.

      I want a VERY small tent. I only want people who live by PRINCIPLES I find value in. I have three 1. I tell the truth 2. I am honorable in my dealings with others. 3. I respect property interests.

      I want a little bit more than someone's interpretation of "non-agression". In Portland, that means not saying anything that might hurt someone's feelings because we all know words hurt just like a knife or a gun does.

      Oh, you think I'm kidding? Come for a visit to Portlandia. I will show you things that will make you quake in fear. We even have instructions in the sidewalk on how to think and act.
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      • Posted by lrshultis 6 years, 5 months ago
        You seem to think that somehow by using collectivism you can get non-collectivism, i.e., individuals with a rationally selfish view of reality who do not need a collective to give them some self worth. I doubt that any religious or philosophical ideologies can be changed by your labors since change requires mental self effort. They are changed accidentally by the memes passing through societies and Libertarianism and Objectivism are small sources of non-collectivist memes compared to religious and other destructive beliefs.
        Be careful, the Neo-techs may infiltrate your blog as there may be some lurking here in the Gulch, though not directly advertising their odd takes on Objectivism and Libertarianism.
        That anti-fluoridation direction is non-sense due to the lack of harm due to natural fluorides at much higher concentrations than any added to a municipal water supply. Whether one wants more tooth decay in children's teeth of the poor is another matter to consider with un-fluoridated water with the government accusing a parent of child neglect if the schools find any cavities in teeth.
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        • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
          Actually, what you've written indicates you didn't spend much time on what I wrote. The fact you only got "collectivism" out of it is sort of the proof. Your reasoning on fluoride indicates you have never looked at the evidence except from your own side so there's little point talking about that subject. This kind of answer is why there is so little activity on this forum. Don't have a clue why you even responded because you added nothing of substance to the discussion and addressed nothing I said in the letter.
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          • Posted by lrshultis 6 years, 5 months ago
            I was considering how you seem to believe that you need to create some kind of collective to change the minds of those without libertarian beliefs. I have seen this kind of stuff from libertarians for decades. If you like some form of Objectivism try to introduce others to it. It is libertarian and more directed toward a rational individual than is libertarian which has no necessary rational philosophical base. Libertarians come with a spectrum of philosophies from left to right along with those with an Objectivist philosophical base which really does not fit on the lift-right scale.
            As a chemist, I understand the pros and cons of fluoridation of water and the only problem I have with it is that it is semi-mandatory in that one can purchase drinking water and use fluoride substance on their teeth if they decide to do so. Why do you use government supplied water and not complain about chlorination to kill bad living things or the use of other chemicals in purification processes. If you came to libertarianism through Rand, then don't expect to go for the Rothbardian type of anarcho capitalism.
            https://mises.org/library/why-i-am-an...

            I prefer the Randian type of limited government and do not see any way without waring groups trying to force society into private enforcement organizations for some kind of non-legal policing pretending not to be a government.
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        • Posted by $ CBJ 6 years, 5 months ago
          "That anti-fluoridation direction" is exactly on point in regard to libertarian principles. It's a matter of individual choice. Regardless of fluoridation's merits (or lack thereof), does the government have the right to "medicate" the general population? I think not.
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          • Posted by lrshultis 6 years, 5 months ago
            Which set of libertarian principles are you speaking of? Libertarianism is spread over the left to the right. The US libertarian party has watered down the platform compared to what it was decades ago and run candidates which I do not consider to be libertarians of the kind with rational philosophies.
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            • Posted by $ CBJ 6 years, 5 months ago
              I don't think libertarians of the left or the right favor a nanny-state government "medicating" the population through its drinking water. It's an issue of freedom of choice. Ideally water delivery should be a private activity, not a government one.
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              • Posted by lrshultis 6 years, 5 months ago
                Medication treats a disease. Fluoridation is meant to prevent a disease, i.e., the prevention of bacteria causing caries in teeth. Do you live in the country and have your own well or purchase bottled water? If so, do you have the water analyzed for safety when drunk. Societies have opted for municipal water systems for convenience and safety where governments can be trusted. Short of having multiple water lines in privately owned streets in cities and all the time spent earning to pay for them, carrying water would be a daily project as in less developed countries. My village does not fluoridate water and charges an $320 yearly fee before charging for the water and sewer usage in order to earn an 8% profit for repairs and toward replacing broken equipment. I liked it better than when water was cheap with the hidden costs being paid out of property taxes. The mandatory part of it is having to be hooked to the village system. One woman tried to not hook up because she did not need water and sewer for visiting her cottage a week or two a year. The village tried fining her $10,000 which she refused to pay so they jailed her for two weeks, which didn't get her to pay up, so they condemned her cottage and ripped it down. That is what should be fought rather than somewhat non-issues. Good luck in getting people to hold some rational beliefs. I have found that people prefer just believing what they believe without taking the time and effort to learn new ideas that includes my 3 living brothers by whom I get yelled at with any reference to Rand or most other ideas.
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                • Posted by $ CBJ 6 years, 5 months ago
                  Re: "Fluoridation is meant to prevent a disease, i.e., the prevention of bacteria causing caries in teeth."

                  So it's okay for government to interfere in people's free choices if the purpose is to "prevent disease"? This logic can also be used to justify taxing the hell out of sugary soft drinks, or even banning them altogether. That's more of an argument in favor of a nanny state than an argument for individual rights.
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                  • Posted by lrshultis 6 years, 5 months ago
                    It depends on one's philosophy whether it is OK for oneself or not. Politically, when in a democracy or a representative constitutional republic like the USA, large numbers of citizens say what is OK or what they are willing to put up with or work around. You seem to believe that as long as fluoride is not added to the public water supply, then it is OK for government to have a public monopoly in distribution water to homes and businesses. If you do not like it, then find your own water source and transfer it to your place as long as you do not steal it from someone else.
                    If you have a way to limit the nanny state, go to it, but that will require a lot of wasted time to convince those who want it, just as it is near impossible to change religious or philosophical beliefs, even in oneself.
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                    • Posted by $ CBJ 6 years, 5 months ago
                      Re: "You seem to believe that as long as fluoride is not added to the public water supply, then it is OK for government to have a public monopoly in distribution water to homes and businesses." No I don't. In my previous reply to you I said, "Ideally water delivery should be a private activity, not a government one." As for "wasted time", the campaign against fluoride that the original poster worked on was actually successful. I've worked on a few successful anti-statist campaigns myself.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 6 months ago
        "I want a VERY small tent. I only want people who live by PRINCIPLES I find value in. I have three 1. I tell the truth 2. I am honorable in my dealings with others. 3. I respect property interests."
        I like to think this is or could be a big tent, ideally the vast majority of society.
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        • Posted by 6 years, 5 months ago
          That's a wonderful aim but I don't see how it can be fulfilled if we keep maintaining a big tent of unprincipled people who really do not live by the principles of libertarianism, they only subscribe to the one thing. When it comes to choice in the big picture of life, they don't trust people with it.
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    • Posted by ycandrea 6 years, 5 months ago
      Gary Johnson is a horrible example of a Libertarian. He is wishy washy, and has no value system. At least that is my take on him after researching him and watching him. Yuck!
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