Religous Freedom being used as an argument to support discrimination

Posted by Maphesdus 12 years, 2 months ago to Legislation
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New Arizona legislation could give business owners the right to discriminate against anyone they want, as long as they have a religious reason for doing so. If this passes, it would effectively destroy the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as well as all other Civil Rights and equal protection laws.


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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Can you provide an example of how the Civil Rights Act has hurt minorities? That is, after all, a rather extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So what if a business "stays profitable" if they discriminate. You think it should be outlawed even? What next...will it become illegal for me to cross to the other side of the street when I see a gang of teenage thugs heading my way? Your brain discriminates automatically to warn you of possible dangers. Yeah..we should outlaw discrimination to save someone's precious feelings (oh whoa whoa whoa).
    College student...who knows everything yet has never actually DONE or accomplished anything..like say...surviving on your own efforts. I love these college kids who are so worldly and knowledgible and have never been off their parent's, or the gov's wallet. (which is really OUR wallet by the way.) You go start that video game development company and then we'll talk again about this "profiting even if they engage in discriminatory tactics" b.s. Make sure you hire the first homeless person you find too...DON'T DISCRIMINATE! No one will mind that he makes the entire office smell like dog shit or that he doesn't have a clue about video games either.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Customers aren't forcing business owners to do anything except obey the law. Saying that business owners are not allowed to discriminate does not prevent the business owner from retaining whatever religious beliefs s/he wants.

    By the way, your comment about customers supposedly forcing their unsavory appearance on business owners is slightly disturbing, as it could be interpreted as a justification for racism and persecution against anyone the business owner thought looked strange.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well the purpose of any business is to provide services to its customers. I don't own a business, but if I did and a customer came in asking me to provide them with whatever product or service my business offered, I would give it to them, since that would have been the whole reason I set up the business in the first place.

    If a customer was exceptionally rude in their approach, I wouldn't turn them away just for that reason alone.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So are you saying that Thomas Jefferson had a fallacious understanding of the First Amendment?
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well I'm not convinced that businesses which engaged in discrimination would automatically do poorly as a result. I believe it's entirely possible for a business to remain profitable even if they engage in discriminatory tactics. That's why I think discrimination in business needs to be explicitly outlawed -- historical evidence demonstrates that discrimination just doesn't go away on its own, and there is no logical reason to believe it would.

    And no, I haven't ever owned my own business, though I'm still in college at the moment, and I'm currently using the skills I've learned to try and establish a video game development company which I hope to get off the ground by the time I graduate. Though if it doesn't work out, I can still use the work I've done as a portfolio to get a job at an existing studio (there are actually quite a few around where I live).
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "“Rights” are a moral concept—the concept that provides a logical transition from the principles guiding an individual’s actions to the principles guiding his relationship with others—the concept that preserves and protects individual morality in a social context—the link between the moral code of a man and the legal code of a society, between ethics and politics. Individual rights are the means of subordinating society to moral law."
    Religious beliefs fall under this umbrella. It is the respect for natural rights that keep us civilized, not mysticism

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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    it is intimidating if I say I'm going to kick your ass. But, unless, there is realistic belief that I will commit assault then it is not actionable. I can say whatever I want. That is not force. I also have the freedom to associate. It's a natural right to associate with whomever I want. this includes the ability to not associate. that doesn't mean my decision is intelligent or rational. but that is not the province of government. The civil rights act has left us with affirmative action and racial, gender quotas, which have hurt minorities over the long run. Fail.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    yes. There was a huge social movement that was making great headway. Once the federal law was passed, we can actually see the breakdown in black communities and in black families. Forced busing was a nightmare.
    If you want to be stupid as a business owner and refuse customers based on race-well, then you're stupid. and your business will most likely do poorly. But I will tell you right now-my business does not cater to progressives. they vote to steal. I do not do business with thieves.
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  • Posted by $ johnrobert2 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    And furthermore, the couple in question had every legal right to take their business elsewhere. Instead, got their panties in a knot and decided to force an issue which was merely a matter of choice on the part of the businessperson. As Shrug pointed out, it was a business decision based on the personal beliefs of the owner. I don't know what type of business you operate or are an employee of, but I just imagine you would take umbrage at someone coming into your establishment and telling you that you must give them whatever service you provide...or else. If you are an employee, you may not have much choice, but if you operate your own business, being forced to do something you don't wish to do is mighty galling, especially if it conflicts with your principles.
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  • Posted by $ johnrobert2 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Apparently you have fallen victim to a fallacious reading of the first amendment. The 'separation of church and state' was stated by Thomas Jefferson in a letter and was phrased as 'a wall of separation between church and state'. There was never mention made in the First Amendment so stating. The First Amendment states ' there shall be no law respecting an establishment of religion'.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishme...
    The second part of that particular phrase states, 'nor the free exercise thereof.' If I choose to construe my religious belief as not wishing to do business with you because I disagree with your lifestyle, beliefs, whatever, then I have a perfect right to do so. Now, this does not extend to forcing to believe as I do or otherwise coercing you to do aught against your own beliefs, but to force me to accede to your wants simply because you throw a wall-eyed hissy fit because I won't do as you wish is treading on my First Amendment rights.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    ...and a business patron doesn't have the right to force his/her beliefs/actions/or unsavory language or appearances on a private business owners establishment either.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I would oppose the part where it says businesses have to do with business with anyone and everyone. I think privately owned businesses should be able to turn away anyone at any time. If a business owner decides to never allow another woman into their establishment that's up to them...they probably won't survive once people realize what they're doing, but that's their choice to do so. In a free market these things take care of themselves...competition, word of mouth etc. I'm also against affirmation action. The most qualified person should get the job. (Hell ...or the worst if that's what the owner is seeking.) The business owner gets to choose who they want to hire...their business depends on having qualified help...and should NOT be forced to hire anyone to meet a gov quota. The gov shouldn't have their nose in private business whatsoever.
    Do you, or have you ever, owned a business Maph?
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago
    Why the hell can't businesses do business with, or NOT do business with, whom ever they choose. What is wrong with saying, "no thanks, I don't want your business"..for ANY reason. It's not different than a patron saying they don't choose to do business with a company because the business supports something don't agree with.. THAT happens ALL the time... why are businesses legally handcuffed on exchanging value for value with people that they don't value. It's not discrimination...it's FREEDOM.
    “In a free society, one does not have to deal with those who are irrational. One is free to avoid them.”
    ― Ayn Rand, The Virtue of Selfishness
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    People are certainly welcome to have religious convictions, they're just not allowed to force them on other people, nor use those convictions to deny others of their rights.

    Some things to keep in mind:

    The Ku Klux Klan tried to use the argument of religious freedom to justify the burning of crosses and the persecution of African Americans.
    Neo-Nazi gangs try to claim religious freedom as justification for their persecution of Jews and other minorities.
    The terrorists who helped plan and execute the 9/11 attacks tried to use religious freedom as a defense in court.
    Evangelical fundamentalists are trying to use religious freedom as an excuse to violate the First Amendment, which guarantees the separation of church and state.

    People obviously have the freedom to believe whatever they want, but just remember the old saying: "Your freedom ends where my nose begins."
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  • Posted by $ johnrobert2 12 years, 2 months ago
    Any specious reasoning to destroy a person's ability to hold to a religious conviction, further destroying a religion's tenets, destroying religion. Anything to get God out of everything. This brings man down the stage where is just above the non-rational animals. Such people will revert to animal-like behavior, bringing the rule of tooth and claw to civilization, effectively ending civilization as we know it. Hope you're prepared to fight for existence at that level.
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