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The real problem with America: Ignorance

Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 7 months ago to Culture
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We are a culture of self-absorbed imbeciles. Our school systems are both ineffective at actual teaching and teaching the wrong things. And so the media isn't challenged when they propagandize everything.

The only solution to America's woes: true education about our rights and basic economics.
SOURCE URL: http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/09/13/americans-cant-name-rights/


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    Posted by $ Olduglycarl 6 years, 7 months ago
    "Free"*** Lectures at Hillsdale College...could begin to turn the tide. hillsdalecollege.com

    Hillsdale, as you might know, was established exclusively, to teach the constitution and our founding.
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    • Posted by fosterj717 6 years, 7 months ago
      Unfortunately, most Americans are too ill-informed to realize that Hillsdale and what it offers even exists.

      I think the Academic Elite want to keep it that way otherwise how can they influence the Snowflakes and other minds made of mush.

      Antifas, Snowflakes and safe spaces, all in opposition to the First Amendment (Free Speech, etc.)......Even Hillsdale can't overcome Institutional Stupidity!
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    • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 7 months ago
      If only parents recognized the need and could find the resource without being completely misled by media outlets like the NYT, et al.
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 6 years, 7 months ago
        Agreed.
        I meet a minimum of 100 people a week at Hospice. Those people that have young kids, if we hit it off, I advise to go on line and let their kids watch...also I suggest that they do too.
        I've had a 50% success rate...just by word of mouth.

        PS...even though my state is disgustingly over run with ignorant liberals...only a few, over the past 7 years have ever ventured here.
        The one's that have, were politicians and got a frosty reception.
        Congresswhatever, Delora got the frostiest reception of all recently.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
      Agreed. I have thoroughly enjoyed the three courses I have finished and I'm working on a fourth now. I send them money so I can get the course materials in book form - well worth it and cheaper than other college textbooks!
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    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
      "Hillsdale, as you might know, was established exclusively, to teach the constitution and our founding."

      Hillsdale was founded in 1844 by Babtists as a religious liberal arts college, not "exclusively, to teach the constitution and our founding". Today it emphasizes conservative and religious interpretations of history, culture and politics. "Hillsdale is still considered a Christian institution, with students expected to follow moral tenets of Christianity as commonly understood in the Christian tradition." http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Hillsdale_...
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 7 months ago
    Ignorance is ingrained when children are taught what to think instead of how to think. Now in my 70s, I feel very fortunate to have had the experience of excellent teachers through most of my education. They promoted the idea of asking "why" when presented with certain historic events, in an effort to get us to understand the reasoning and motives behind decisions and choices.

    I was encouraged to read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers to better understand the Constitution (got extra credit for that) as one example. You won't find a teacher today that does that, sadly.

    Even in 1950s Georgia, in a white segregated system, I got extra credit for studying the lives of Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, and George Washington Carver, which I'm sure is a surprise to some.

    Something is definitely wrong with our current education system, and it isn't the kids.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 6 years, 7 months ago
    Said it before and I'm saying it again~
    Having previously vaguely suspected as much, I fully realized how ignorant too many Americans are when I started to watch Watter's World before O'Riley got canned.
    There were times when it became too painful for old dino to watch and I'd start channel surfing.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thmou...
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  • Posted by CaptainKirk 6 years, 7 months ago
    This is why they are FIGHTING Home Schooling so much. Communism Core REQUIRED to get into college is the next step.
    You either know DOGMA or you can't claim to be educated...
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    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
      There are many reasons to object to Federally imposed 'common core' standards in education, but it is not "communist".
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      • Posted by CaptainKirk 6 years, 7 months ago
        We call it communist core, because it promotes ONE path (government chosen) to get to the right answer.
        TO me. assuming there is ONLY 1 way to do anything is QUITE a communist concept.
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        • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
          That is not what the concept 'communism' means. Nor does the government policy promote the idea that there is only one right answer chosen by government. Just as frequently as it supports an educational elite dictating national education standards it insists on a subjectivist 'no right answer'.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 6 years, 7 months ago
    Public schools are a mess. The government, I fully believe, should get out of the business.

    Just last night I was joking with a doctor friend of mine about our schools. "We are given a 'right to a free public education'. But, if you don't go you get arrested for truancy. What am I missing here?" ...lol What other "rights" are like that? "Speak freely or go to jail!" "Better pack heat, or else!"
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  • Posted by IndianaGary 6 years, 7 months ago
    The dumbing down of our educational system has been a goal of the progressive left for over a century. And, it's been extraordinarily easy to do given our dependence on government for education. It's no accident that teachers are generally left leaning given the state of our colleges and universities. They were taken over by the left a long time ago and it's only gotten worse. The left will leave only kicking and screaming and will destroy as much as they can in the process. They are protected by tenure and government connections.
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  • Posted by preimert1 6 years, 7 months ago
    My 6 yeqr old grand daughter only wants to watch cartoons on TV which are now mostly meaningless drivel. I wish serieis' like "Liberty Kids" and "school House Rock" were still on. I'm going to see if they are available at Amazon. Actually cartoons and comic books are pretty effective ways to reach kids at an early age.
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 6 years, 7 months ago
      Actually, we used NetFlix DVDs a LOT... No commercials, and we controlled the content a bit. As my daughter got older, I had her watching 21 Jumpstreet with Depp... She loved it, and we got to talk about the TROUBLE Kids in High School got into, and how it affected their life...

      Also, Cosby show (which I shudder at now, but it had some great lessons). My daughter and I joke about the episode where he goes to buy a car, and tries hiding the fact that he is a doctor: "What type of work do you do?" -> "Hard Work!"...

      Mad Magazine is pretty educational, and still fun when she is a bit older. Seek, and you shall find. Just take the time out to teach her to use them as COUNTER EXAMPLES and not examples...

      Kids are our future...
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 6 years, 7 months ago
    The US IQ id dropping. Teacher and media IQ is lower than a few years ago, yet both professions are sure they know all the answers. DiCaprio thinks he is a judge of what is science, yet never went to college - he believes his own press releases obviously. Athletes now think they should be telling everyone how this country should be, yet they can't stay off drugs and away from loose women. They expect people to make their sport secondary to what they feel we should hear, yet where is their IQ? High school graduates now don't understand economics nor history, and can't speak proper English. Hey ball players, the word is "YOU", BIR pronounced "CHEW" - obviously you don't know our government from a totalitarian one either. I am so sick of McD employees, who once the register tells them how much change, are unable to count it out! All these folk think they deserve more respect, and want to hold us captive until we hear their blathering. This ongoing moronic talking point spounting over global warming, shows what stupid sheep we now have, who never studied science. How can any of them form values if they don't even know what they are? Ayn Rand should be required reading for a HS diploma. We have no ability to reason as a nation of fools stake to the streets.
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 6 years, 7 months ago
      I was at Lowes, and 2 "young ladies" were talking about the haves and the have nots... Imagine a little head shaking going on...
      I casually mentioned: Where I grew up, I learned that the division was usually "Those who worked hard to educate themselves, and those who have not... That their income was usually more tied to that, than anything else".

      OMG. The one looked at me and said "I went to High School!" Like that was an education she worked hard for. I said "See!" and went on my way.

      smh
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 7 months ago
    This is why I advocate that all people in public office, elected or appointed, pass a test similar to the one given to new citizens before they can take office or get hired. Since they should already know the material, it shouldn't be much of a task to pass with at least an 80%.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 7 months ago
    The news story is misleading.

    Here is the link to the actual survey report:
    https://www.annenbergpublicpolicycent...

    "The APPC survey, conducted Aug. 9-13 among 1,013 adults in the United States, finds that 53 percent think that people who are here illegally do not have any rights under the Constitution. That incorrect belief is especially strong among self-identified political conservatives – 67 percent think it is accurate, compared with 48 percent of moderates and 46 percent of liberals."

    >>* In Plyler v. Doe (1982), for example, the Supreme Court ruled that a Texas law violated the equal protection clause by denying a public school education to undocumented children. The Court held: “The illegal aliens who are plaintiffs in these cases challenging the statute may claim the benefit of the Equal Protection Clause, which provides that no State shall ‘deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.’ Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is a ‘person’ in any ordinary sense of that term.” The majority also wrote: “In addition to the pivotal role of education in sustaining our political and cultural heritage, denial of education to some isolated group of children poses an affront to one of the goals of the Equal Protection Clause: the abolition of governmental barriers presenting unreasonable obstacles to advancement on the basis of individual merit.” <<
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    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
      If that article is misleading (which it is), the description at the top of this thread is much worse: We are not "a culture of self-absorbed imbeciles". Likewise for the assertion, "The only solution to America's woes: true education about our rights and basic economics". There is a lot more to education than that, and the fundamental solution to the downward trend of the country is philosophical, explaining and spreading the philosophy of reason and individualism, not conservative assertions of "rights" and "economics" based on tradition and faith. Conservatives demand that the Constitution be taken seriously but have no principled answer to the left's demands that it not be in the name of reason and science 'pragmatically' applied. With that approach, faith competing with unprincipled pragmatism and progressivism posturing in the name of science and rationality, it's no surprise that people don't take the bill of rights more seriously.

      The survey itself was misleading because it caught people off guard on the telephone asking about details they mostly hadn't though about in years, but which could have easily reviewed and brought back to connect with basic ideas of freedoms still largely taken for granted by the average American (but not the intellectuals). That doesn't make us "a culture of self-absorbed imbeciles". (More details on the survey methodology are at https://cdn.annenbergpublicpolicycent...

      The people of this country are not "imbeciles", they are still the most civilized, properly "self-absorbed" individualistic, productive people on earth, living advanced lives in the most knowledge-based economy in the world despite the statism wrecking it. They are fully capable of understanding the basis for what is left of the American sense of life, but had no way to learn it as the professional intellectuals have accepted and disseminate irrationalist, altruist, collectivist ideas from old Europe encouraging resentment and pressure group ethnic and class warfare. We are confronted with the clash between the success of reason and individualism in the realm of science, technology and economic productivity versus primitive irrationalism and mysticism in the realm of the 'humanities' concerning principles of human value and ethical standards, which is why so many important aspects of education are so abysmal today.
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 6 years, 7 months ago
      And now some LOCAL Communities are LETTING ILLEGAL VOTE in local elections...

      Coming Soon: Illegals will have a right to vote in FEDERAL ELECTIONS... Sponsored by Soros...
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 7 months ago
        J. J. Hill was a railroad entrepreneur who did not seek government subsidies. Hill was born in Canada. He became an American citizen after he voted in a local St. Paul election -- he knew that he had to go back and dot the i's and cross the t's to be legal. But is was after the fact. And he was a Democrat.

        We had a friend of the family who served in the Army and was wounded and when he came home, he voted. But he wasn't really a citizen. It caught up with him. The judge let him off on the charges but made him take a citizenship class and get sworn in.

        The British system - the "Anglo-American system" - is called "bench made law." The legislature passes a broad bill and the courts decide on a case-by-case how to apply the law to the facts presented. The other way is the Continental system where the legislature passes laws with lots of clauses covering all the possible cases. The courts look at the facts presented and apply them to the law with very little interpretation. "Man Without a Country" and "Les Miserables" provide dramatic contrasts between the two systems.
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        • Posted by CaptainKirk 6 years, 7 months ago
          Mike, I personally research voter fraud in Florida, and have testified in Federal court about the data I was able to easily crunch to identify problems being ignored.

          Illegals voting is so common, it doesn't even phase me. I believe 5 states made it ILLEGAL to validate someones citizenship for voting reasons!
          And, it turns out, we are ENCOURAGING ICE to deny citizenship to ANYONE going through the process, who has SO MUCH AS REGISTERED to vote.
          Because in so doing, they have likely PERJURED themselves by saying they are, in fact, citizens. And this ICE agency, under President Trump seems WILLING to look into it!
          (this assumes they filled out the federal form which asks if you are a citizen under the penalty of perjury).

          I think ANYONE who votes illegally should be stricken from voting for 99 years. And I believe they should NEVER become citizens. And the country should PROCLAIM this very loudly, and publicly. But the media will not let it happen. So the hundreds of prosecuted cases will never see the light of day. It's like getting a "Home owner shoots intruder" on the AP. It aint happening. Not unless the homeowner gets charged with a crime!
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
      This makes me wonder how it would have been if they had asked the questions in very plain language.
      "Can the gov't make a law banning saying things because they're hugely unpopular or offensive to most people?"
      "To fight the most violent crimes, like child kidnapping and terrorism, does it violate the Constitution for police to search people's homes without a warrant on the possibility that any home might contain evidence that would save lives?"
      "Can the gov't ban all weapons from citizens if it shows the police force is effective and banning weapons decreases accidents?
      "In cases where witnesses are afraid to testify, can the gov't use statements as evidence while keeping their source secret for the witnesses' protection?"
      "If someone is suspected of a serious crime but refuses to cooperate with investigators, can we jail them for refusing to cooperate if police suspect they might commit future crimes?
      "Are all rights are listed in the Bill of Rights?"

      I wonder how people would do. If people answer yes to these questions, it seems more than just lack of knowledge. It seems like they're not concerned with turning over power to the government.

      I also wonder how it would be on all questions if they think people a) have those rights, b) if they think Constitution guarantees those rights, if courts back the respondents' view of the Constitution. On whether people in violation of immigration laws have any rights, some respondents might say they have no rights, the Constitution is ambiguous about it, and the courts are backing those false rights. This would allow us to distinguish people who ignorantly believe the Constitution spells out the rights only apply to citizens from people who just disagree with the courts' interpretation.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 7 months ago
        You know, if you asked most people here what the 14th Amendment was, hardly any of them would get it right. (We can all look it up, of course.). Or putting it another way, you could ask "When did it become a federal crime to make disparaging remarks about federal money?" And most people here probably would go for the Federal Reserve Act or the New Deal.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 7 months ago
    Most people are ignorant about most of the things you consider important. That's life. A while back, I posted about our ignorance of the military (https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post.... "Most people" think that most people in the military are conservative or Republican. Most people do not know the quadratic formula and very few of those who do could derive it. Most people who can name any planets think that Pluto is one of them. Most people do not know how many chromosomes a human has. For work on two different jobs, I spent several hours with the Texas Government Code. I never read our state constitution.

    I could argue that the Annenberg Public Policy Center itself is an example of collectivism. Individualism is capitalism; and capitalism is lived the marketplace, not the legislature. Being involved in public policy is an example of what Harry Browne called "The Burning Issues Trap" in his book How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World. Being worried about politics just takes time away from the things in life that you actually have control over.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
      "Being worried about politics just takes time away from the things in life that you actually have control over."
      Why people care so much about candidates who are not all that different is one of my biggest mysteries.
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      • Posted by ScaryBlackRifle 6 years, 7 months ago
        Here's why: because we delegate the reins of power to them and they can impact our lives in horrible ways if allowed.

        I think if you'll look around you you'll realize that not being worried about politics is why there are so many other troublesome things to worry about.
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      • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
        There are good reasons to be concerned about candidates because their policies and ideology often are different enough to matter. But it depends on having proper standards by which to evaluate them. Most of the histrionics we see over political candidates is emotional attachment to personality and slogans.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
      "Most people are ignorant about most of the things you consider important. "
      That's true. I'm ignorant about things like cooking beyond frying and egg and the rules of soccer, American football, and other sports. I don't know how to fish, camp, or have any basic survival skills. I also suck machine shop stuff, cutting drywall, and cutting wires to right length so they can be bussed together and look good.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 7 months ago
        Yeah, but how many people can design a tunable oscillator? ... or build a NAND gate ... and yet, they all function well enough in our electronic world...
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        • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
          How many people need to? Division of labor based on specialized knowledge makes an advanced economy possible.
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          • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 7 months ago
            My comment was meant as a personal nod to CircuitGuy who lamented not being skilled at outdoors crafts. His comments, mine, and yours all underscore the same point, the one you made about division of labor. Knowing the Constitution is important to being a good citizen, but you can live a happy and productive life knowing nothing about it because that' what lawyers are for.
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            • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
              Yes, but regarding the Constitution in particular, understanding it is also what voters are for. We don't have to be Constitutional lawyers, but we do need to evaluate politicians and know what they are betraying.

              More important than knowing detailed article this or article that is knowing and understanding why the Constitution is important and why and how government must be limited. It's not "faith and the founders said so and if you don't know that you are a self-indulgent imbecile".
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          • Posted by ScaryBlackRifle 6 years, 7 months ago
            As does the pooling of labor. While I can't build electronics out of dirt, there is a need for others who can and they need to eat.

            Growing, preparing and storing food? That, I can handle.

            I can also do the machine shop and fine woodworking stuff, teach adults any skill I have taught myself, run a locomotive and a dump truck. I can change a diaper and soothe an irritated baby.

            I am perhaps the world's worst fisherman.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
    I used to think this was crap, just kvetching about "kids today". I am starting to see it though. Keep in mind I suspect average citizens are more aware of their rights today than in the past. So I do see the glass half empty. But I also see kids developing slower, and I wonder if they'll ever feel like "the adults", the people with adult rights and responsibilities. Or will they look only to authorities for every decision? Some of this is middle-aged "kids today" grousing. My wife has been reading me excerpts from Sen Ben Sasse's book on the topic, and it's echoing things I see in my daily life.
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    • Posted by fosterj717 6 years, 7 months ago
      Unfortunately, that is contrary to reality. 40 years ago even though the "Hegelian" model was already deployed, there was still teaching being done in civics and history which exposed us to the Constitution and Federalism, even in Public Education.

      That is no longer the case, instead it is being touted as something created by old, dead, white men! This unfortunately is the message that several generations of young minds have been over-exposed to. Self hating is now the goal rather than anything honest and uplifting.

      The dumbing down of America is part of the scam so that we are just another cog in the Global machine. If we are considered better than the average, then the average will always be just that. The Global Elite must destroy that concept of America so, what better way then to make our entire population "stupid" by teaching the garbage that is passing for a National Curricula?

      It has been a long downhill slide teaching that which the left to have taught. Generation of over degree and woefully under educated citizens. One size fits all for corporate ignorance! Truth be told......
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      • Posted by Flootus5 6 years, 7 months ago
        True. I took American History as one of the "Liberal Arts" electives required to get a BS degree in Geology. University of New Hampshire in the mid-70's. For one of the tests, the prof required the students to memorize the Declaration of Independence word for word and be able to write it down at test time without any references. And then there was all the discussion about its meaning. Pretty cool. I would hate to see what its like these days. All the alumni mailings I get from UNH is full of climate change research, sustainability nonsense, etc.
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        • Posted by fosterj717 6 years, 7 months ago
          There you go! Teach dogmatic "junk" science (but make sure that has been taught for at least 12 years, then you will get you intellectually challenged, mind-numbed snowflakes whose only interests are where they can hide and not have to face sad Truths! An educational morass to be sure! Thank you Hegel and the Progressive left for the gift that keeps giving! Brainwashing (whereas most only need a light rinse these days......)!
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      • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
        What do you mean by the "Hegelian model" of education? Did you mean John Dewey and Progressive education?
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        • Posted by fosterj717 6 years, 7 months ago
          I believe that Dewey had the major influence on American education for years. Of course he was heavily influenced by Hegel as well as Kant and others however under Kennedy, National education took on a much more Progressive posture.

          Hegel agreed with Aristotle when he said "that the practical problem of education is to prepare the person to be a good citizen of a good state". This then became the focus of American Public Education at that time. It expanded throughout the 60's and by 1970 we were starting to see a preponderance of movements and philosophies beginning to permeate the American classroom.

          This is the application and we are seeing it on steroids today. Empiricism has given way to group think (Preparing a person to become a "good" citizen or a "good" state). Of course the "good" state, even though very imperfect, determines what a "good" citizen should know and act upon.

          Since empiricism (or even simple "critical thinking" is no longer being taught per se, we are left with for all intents and purposes, Truth as determined by the state. In simplest terms, I believe that captures the issue that public education faces today. It is by design and definitely not by accident.
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          • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
            The idea of education for a political purpose serving the state was imported from Europe, primarily Germany, in the early 19th century when New England Unitarians battling with Catholic immigrants for ideological domination imposed state controlled public education.

            Dewey's later educational philosophy based on Pragmatism was much more than a political purpose. He emphasized subjectivist socialization in groups, encouragement of a subjective surfacing of a child's supposed unique innate self, and 'critical thinking' as 'learn by doing' pragmatism, all at the expense of both objective content and objective method in thinking. "Critical thinking" is emphasized today, but it takes the form of subjective rationalization, not objective conceptual thought. Academic rationalism is everywhere.

            Government control of education today supports and controls the intellectual and educational establishment, with its willing collaboration, not government directly deciding and dictating what is to be regarded as true. Controls through compulsory monopoly schools, unionized teachers, bureaucratic regulation, and double costs of education through taxation for those who might escape, are supported and exploited by establishment intellectuals to protect their position of intellectual control. Both the politics and the intellectuals are caused by the same bad philosophy and can only be reformed by replacing that.

            I don't know what you mean by seeing since the 1960s "a preponderance of movements and philosophies beginning to permeate the American classroom". There always was a dominant classical educational philosophy, consisting largely of stuffing knowledge into heads as dogma without regard to how to think rationally, but today there is no emphasis on variety in educational philosophies and movements, only the progressive loss of objective content as multiculturalism spawns competing ethnicities and other trivial anti-intellectual fixations in the name of education, and all of which embrace the same anti-reason collectivism with control by a political and intellectual elite.
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            • Posted by fosterj717 6 years, 7 months ago
              Thank you for your reasoned and eloquent posting. Your perspective is appreciated.

              As for my comments about a "palpable" change in Public Education during the 1960'sand a linkage to an emerging political component, and indoctrination, I can only relate personal experience and my recollections of that critical period of time.

              In 1963, while a freshman in HS (I was on my football bus at the time of Kennedy's assassination) to about the time I had graduated (1966) the "new" teaching practices and tools were pretty much implemented. Also, over that 4 year period, the changes in the philosophical underpinnings began to change in subtle ways and began taking root, perhaps in response to the upheavals raging at the timet. However, it wasn't until the 1970's that a more serious "politicization" of the subject matter seemed to permeate the environment. There were also new crops of educators who were being influenced by events and by "improvements" in educational doctrine and goals.

              I don't know how old you are however during the time frame mentioned, for me (and others), these changes became easily observable. In addition, over the years with the myriad of tests (TIMS, College Boards, etc.) the scores of students across the country kept dropping, even with the bogus approach of "Normalizing" test criteria.

              There is a cause and effect to all of these education related issues, of that I am sure. Teaching the teachers has become little more than "Indoctrination" and the skills that teachers used to possess has dropped greatly! Of that I don't think there is much that can be refuted. Therefore, I stand by my observations and linkages to where we find ourselves today.

              In closing, it seems "What" to think is more important than "How" to think and that Reading, Writing and Arithmetic is no longer the primary focus of Public Education. A humble observation....
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              • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
                John Dewey's ideas in philosophy of education started around the beginning of the 20th century and became increasingly influential as it spread, along with pragmatism in general. The irrationalism, altruism, collectivism and statism of philosophy in general has been spreading and become more accepted, resulting in the weakening of the American sense of life and individualism.

                It made possible in practice the changes experienced by everyone in every era as it progressed. That history did not start when you happened to be in school. The political activism you observed directly coincided with the rise of the New Left in the late 1960s and early 70s through the "student rebellion" encouraged by some faculty members and teachers and appeased by many of the rest. By the next generation the "student rebels" had entered the professions and soon controlled education. It didn't take long for what you observed to become worse and more pervasive, and those effects were not without cause.

                There can be no "how" to think without the "what". No one can think without content. Learning means learning both: concepts and principles about facts, and the proper conceptual methods. Dedicating years to education into young adulthood means learning as much as possible in both content and method. After that there is far less time for it as you are more dedicated to productively applying what you know and gaining experience, and the flexibility of the mind required to absorb new information in large quantities begins to decrease.

                The subjectivism now rampant in education divides content from method, and thanks to Dewey and his followers in progressive education, there is very little left of objective method at all, either in teaching or in the minds of the students being educated. That is why academic "rationalism" -- thinking and arguing in floating abstractions cut loose from reality -- is so rampant everywhere in the name of 'critical thought' while the more explicit anti-intellectual irrationalism rages all around it. There is no better illustration of that then the current resurrection of New Left violence in the streets and on university campuses of what have been among the most prominent universities influenced by the spread of ideas.
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                • Posted by fosterj717 6 years, 7 months ago
                  Very well put and understandable. Thanks again for shedding light on this topic. My take-away is that it would be nice if our educational oligarchy could detach itself from this "runaway" use of subjectivity and get back to a more rational and objective foundation. Policy and doctrine unfortunately is still being made at all levels by those "radicals" of the sixties and seventies unfortunately.
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                  • Posted by ewv 6 years, 7 months ago
                    It's not a matter of detaching the wrong bodies from an educational oligarchy. They are there because of laws that entrench them (in all forms of public education) and because of what is in the heads of all of them, which makes the bad ideas accepted. Educational philosophy also does not exist in a vacuum. It is made plausible by wrong philosophical premises across the board, and that is what must be fought to improve both the laws and educational philosophy. School choice should be supported as critical to reform.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 7 months ago
      Neoteny is the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood. It allows species to be adaptable when the environment changes. in The Ascent of Man Jacob Bronowski calls it "The Long Childhood."

      "In humans, all fontanelles are generally fused by the fifth year of life with 38% of fontanelles closed by the end of the first year and 96% of the fontanelles closed by the second year. In contrast, apes fuse the fontanelles soon after birth: in chimpanzees the anterior fontanelle is fully closed by 3 months of age." -- https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/t...

      "It is widely debated as to which age the brain is considered “fully mature” or developed. In the past, many experts believed that the brain may have been done developing in the mid to late teens. Then along came some evidence to suggest that development may last until at least age 20. These days, a consensus of neuroscientists agree that brain development likely persists until at least the mid-20s – possibly until the 30s." -- http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/...

      Regarding that, I think the reason that new research pushes the age upwards is that the age is moving upwards. It is a moving target.

      At the same time, I look to the Flynn Effect: we are getting smarter, in part because we continue much longer to learn like children.

      Teaching your kids to be "responsible" sounds good, but I have to ask, "Responsible to whom? and for what?"
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
        "Teaching your kids to be "responsible" sounds good, but I have to ask, "Responsible to whom? and for what?""
        Maybe it's teaching them to be "responsible to themselves", to be "agents", or to be "proactive". I'm not sure the word. People are sometimes surprised we trust our 9-y/o to walk a half mile home without supervision. But when my wife was 9 y/o at a school two miles south our kids', she was a crossing guard with a badge helping the younger kids cross. I walked with a friend half mile to my school l two mile east of here, starting at age 5. The student crossing guard program is long gone. The kids don't leave from school when the bell rings; they're lined up with teachers checking off their names releasing them parents. At recess the kids literally have to submit any game they want to play for approval. Basic games that seem harmless are now banned. Picking up sticks is now allowed. Adults feel a responsibility to mediate minor disputes even when kids are in the process of resolving them with respectful words and no hitting. When 8 y/o kids literally run behind a tree or play structure, parents tell them that they must stay within unobstructed line of sight every second. Climbing trees is much rarer because parents area always hovering, at least one parent won't allow it, and the other parents go along to avoid the hovering parent's kid from being left out. I have heard parents saying they want an open floor plan so they can make visual contact with their 8 y/o kid at all time. No event, including school, can happen without a snack and water, even if the event is not atheletic and comes right before lunch or dinner. They have snack every day at school, shortly before lunch.

        I'm not sure the formula. Maybe we treat them as if they were current age times 0.8 minus 2

        Any one of these things would be no big deal. But it's a troubling pattern. I think it's more than just the trend that there's more to learn in an information society than an agrarian society where people got married at age 14.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
        " consensus of neuroscientists agree that brain development likely persists until at least the mid-20s – possibly until the 30s."
        I think it persists throughout life. I heard we always feel like we've recently achieved a static point in brain development, but we're always developing. At age 42 I feel like I finally stabilized in my 30s, but I heard a talk saying people in the 50s feel like they finally stabilized in their 40s, and it never stops. That's good that we never stop growing. I know a 14 y/o mind is different from a 42 y/o mind. But I want to give that 14 y/o every chance to fly free to the extent of her abilities. Even if it's safer that an older person should always being watching her, I want her to accept the risks and live to the fullest extent possible.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 7 months ago
          When our daughter (now 37) came to visit this summer, she told us how far she actually went on her bike when she was eight.

          As much as I would like to take credit for following the child-raising theories of Ayn Rand, Selene was always her own person. Objectivism claims that people are born tabula rasa but it is obvious that personality and "emotional set points" are deeper than conceptual awareness.

          As annoying as school rules are, my experience is that kids (some kidst) obey them without accepting them.
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          • Posted by ScaryBlackRifle 6 years, 7 months ago
            For a while, when I took off on my bike to see (however furtively) the most beautiful girl on the planet, it was a 10 mile round trip.

            When I was in first grade I got permission to go see Kandra and her bunnies. My Mom granted permission. It wasn't until I got home and related the details of my "date" (her Mom provided Twinkies and lemonade at the picnic table) that my Mom realized that I had been about a mile away and across a fairly busy 45 mph road. I think we almost lost her on that news. ;-)

            I was the kind of kid who would later figure out how to climb to the roof without a ladder and, with a towel around my neck, go flying past the kitchen window as she was washing the dishes in front of it. I never broke anything, but I don't think she ever got used to that or seeing me go sailing past the house on my bike while standing on the seat and balanced on one foot.

            By the time I was 10 or 12, a summer day would find me playing with kids in a neighboring town or exploring miles of dirt roads and inviting wooded glades ... climbing high in trees and napping in the breeze. I would grab my fishing pole and spend the day uptown by the river, sustained by the reward of 1-2 cents per bottle that the local market gave for found bottles.

            If we don't hover over them 24/7, kids do a pretty good job of figuring the world out. We are there as guides and shepherds and maybe ambulance drivers, leading them in good directions, never totally ignoring them but being aware that we have done our job if, when it is time for them to live life on their own, they are capable of doing so successfully and confidently. And nothing breeds confidence quite like occasionally terrifying your Mom. ;-)
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
            "Objectivism claims that people are born tabula rasa but it is obvious that personality and "emotional set points" are deeper than conceptual awareness."
            I think of kids as growing into their own people, no matter what we do, as long as we do not abuse them. Telling them the world is so dangerous that they must be in line-of-sight of adults at all moments because a boogy man my spirit them away ("traffic" them, which sounds like an illegal treat like cocaine) borders on abuse.

            I don't want to be one of those grumpy old men. I am open to this just being the reaction of a middle-aged techie dad and middle-aged attorney mom to the jitters of 30 y/o at-home parents who've never been in the business world or been in charge of something. I try to tell myself that and then just ignore and focus on my own family, minding my own business. It's not always easy because at-home parents run the parent-teacher org. A group of then can spend all day fund-raising an amount equal to one hour of my wife's billable time and then they really accomplished something. And I don't want to begrudge them or seem like I'm blowing my horn about making money. Those young parents are full of youthful and energy, and we ought to all just do what we like in life. I sometimes start to sound like a grumpy old man, though, when I think they're borderline-abusing kids with their hovering. I want them to sit and drink Tab and enjoy their lives as housewives did a generation ago.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
            "my experience is that kids (some kidst) obey them without accepting them."
            I hope you're right. I see them internalizing the messages that the world is a very dangerous and scary place; you must stay close to an authority at all time; just be careful and do not do anything.
            I hope I'm wrong. I've never paid attention to kids growing up before now.
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