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Save the International Space Station and give it to the private sector

Posted by $ nickursis 6 years, 7 months ago to Government
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I think this would make a lot of sense, and maybe thats why it can't happen....
SOURCE URL: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/save-international-space-station-private-103057502.html


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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
    I wonder if they could put it in a higher earth orbit, eliminating the need for periodic boosts. I imagine someone has run the numbers of cost of a large one-time boost minus PV of future maintenance boosts plus extra fuel required every time someone visits it.

    The lunar orbit idea sounds far-fetched because the ISS is in LEO about 200 miles up and the moon is like 200,000 miles.

    I am very unclear if having bases in orbit is helpful to exploration. Bases in LEO, lunar orbit, and the moon surface sound like stepping stones to Mars, but space is so harsh it may actually be cheaper not to establish bases. I wish the economics worked out such that you needed LEO labs for zero-gee mfg processes and from there it started to make sense to mine the moon and shoot the materials with a mass driver into an orbit where the labs could capture it.

    Space colonization will eventually be economical, but unfortunately I doubt it will be in my lifetime.
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    • Posted by $ gharkness 6 years, 7 months ago
      I am not a physicist. but my admittedly limited reading of science (and forgive me - science fiction) leads me to think that there is no way as long as the ISS is in orbit at ANY level, that it would not need an occasional boost. As far as I can tell, any orbit would degrade.

      Edit: never mind! LaGrange point was the information I was unaware of. Thank you nickursis.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 6 years, 7 months ago
      The main problem with orbits higher than 500 miles is radiation, first from Van Allen belts and then from solar radiation after about 60000 miles. Maybe some place between the inner and outer Van Allen belts might work.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
        That is true, most people do not know just how bad the radiation issue is, several documentaries have dealt with it, including the use of a safe space shielded very heavily.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 7 months ago
    Space technology, like any other, advances and improves. The ISS has the same problem that made the STS so difficult to maintain: multiple components with different stages of technology as a result of being constructed over a couple of decades. It would eat the budget of a private organization, even if organized as a not for profit.

    Even government organizations recognize technical obsolescence. Russia didn't try to upgrade Salyut. Instead they replaced it with Mir. Closing the ISS doors in 2024 makes common sense.

    The Bigelow inflatable modules make far more sense for a private firm. With common technology and ease of assembly a private space station could become operational quickly. Bigelow's engineers have developed plans to use the modules for space transportation and lunar housing, further extending the benefit of common technology.
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    • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 6 years, 7 months ago
      Wouldn't it be simpler to have a base to attach new modules to rather than start from scratch? It represents air, power, basic life support. Presumably one could remove and de-orbit old modules while adding new ones.
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 7 months ago
        Sounds logical, but the ISS wasn't designed to be selectively disassembled. The core modules are the oldest, and would be the most difficult to remove and replace. The amount of effort involved would be more than it would take for completely new construction.

        Having listened to the comments of experienced astronauts, they describe the ISS sojourn as being dominated by maintenance duties, with little time for experimentation. That alone shows that we can learn from the ISS and develop new space station technology that requires far less maintenance.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
          "the ISS sojourn as being dominated by maintenance duties"
          This makes me think of Robert Zurbin's line the in the Apollo Mode NASA picked a goal and achieved it. In the Space Shuttle Mode they develop various disjointed technologies and justify them that they'll have a role in future space projects beyond LEO.
          I wonder if the ISS is more Space Shuttle Mode. It feels that way. I could describe the goal of the Apollo program in a short sentence, but I don't know the goal of the ISS. Maybe there is one, and I'm just ignorant of it. If there were some way to make privatization work, that would be a good way to go. It seems like it would be unviable, but then I think about Carl Sagan's allusions to uses a tourist space station might be put to, and maybe it could work as a thrill for the rich.
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          • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 7 months ago
            The Bigelow space station concept works better for space tourism, given the large volume that can be made available for experiencing micro-g gymnastics. For science, more thought needs to go into what kind of experiments are desired, and what kind of structure best serves them. Lockheed has teamed with Spacehab to propose a free flying version of the module that occupied the Shuttle bay for experimental work. That station would not need full time occupancy, just periodic visits to collect experiments and install new ones.
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        • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
          One would think automation and monitoring wold eliminate a lot of maintenance as most maintenance is to just make sure it is not breaking.
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          • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 7 months ago
            That's my point about advancing technology. Newer more automated systems, including some with artificial intelligence algorithms, would significantly reduce the need for manual intervention.

            The older systems embedded in the ISS don't lend themselves to easy replacement. Remember when the flight systems needed an upgrade in the shuttles, the team found it was easier to just have the crew carry along a laptop with the new software than attempt to change out the avionics, and that was a system that could be modified on the ground with no time constraints. Upgrading components in the ISS would be much harder.
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            • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
              There is another point, modular replacement stanrds, standar connections and protocols. Ease of upgrade. Reminds me of a program on the A380, they had 4 countries in the mix, and Germany used their program to do their part, France theirs, and they ended up with all the cabling just a hair too short, requiring complete replacement, and a 2 year and 2 Billion dollar costs.
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              • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 7 months ago
                The U.S. military has tried to do this, with line replaceable units (LRUs) as modules, with the idea of making systems readily and easily upgradeable. The problem has been that the standards kept changing, mostly in electronics. As systems became more automated, the bus speeds needed to be higher, evolving to fiber optic cabling. Connectors and their related protocols kept changing (e.g. RS-232 succeeded by USB). Those kinds of things make modular upgrade a fleeting, quickly outdated method.
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                • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                  Yes, but you can have specific stds that can be met for specific series of replacements making them compatible. That is the whole point of the industry standards such as for USB. It is just they have such a confabulation in the military, and they do not play well with others, MIL spec is a nightmare compared to industry specs, and not because of materials.NAFFI cards were the wave of the future in 1980-85 and became obsolete by 95-2000, so just in designing systems and getting them tested you start at the lead and end at the lag.
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                  • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 7 months ago
                    A variety of technological lags behind industry led the U.S. military to abandon trying to create their own electronic standards, opting to stick with commercial industry. That mitigated but didn't entirely solve the problem, primarily because military systems are designed to last longer than the rapid turnover rate of commercial technology.

                    Anyway, to get back on track, the ISS is a muddled mix of systems that spread over a twenty year construction period. If it's like other government-developed systems I've struggled with, I doubt the technical documentation, drawings, etc. have been kept up to date. Upgrades to improve maintainability would be expensive and time consuming. Better to let the museum piece pass peacefully.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 6 years, 7 months ago
    The ISS can be thought of as a kind of real estate that is jointly owned by several different countries. As such if an agreement can be reached by its owners it could be put up for sale to the highest bidder. The ISS is specifically designed to operate in low Earth orbit. Its life support systems, its attitude stabilization and control systems, communications system and its solar arrays are designed to operate in that environment. The logistic support facilities such as docking ports are also optimized for near Earth operations. Also, the structure is not designed for more than the small forces necessary to maintain its orbit so moving it to a different location is not practical. That being said the ISS may be of interest to space industrial companies such as SpaceX and Planetary Resources if available at the right price. As a research facility it provides a unique environment that is worth careful consideration. It would be interesting to see if an international consortium could be put together to commercialize this resource.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 6 years, 7 months ago
    I can't see getting it to the moon. It would take a lot of acceleration force on a construction that was not designed for it.

    On the other hand, if there is a private company or organization that wants to maintain it in near Earth orbit that might make sense.

    Unfortunately from the comments the number of people who hate private companies has grown to the point that they would rather crash it in the ocean than have someone make a profit off of it.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 7 months ago
    Why are we mucking about with the moon when as was pointed out to me some time ago by members of this forum, that the object of our efforts should be Mars. At that time, I was given the impression that a lunar base would be a waste of time and money.
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    • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 6 years, 7 months ago
      This is my take on the subject:

      If I wanted to learn to sail, I would buy a small sailboat and stay to local waters. When I felt that I had a solid handle on the sport, I would buy a larger boat and take it on the ocean.

      My point is that we have zip experience on non-Earth based facilities and the moon would be a pretty good place to figure out what and what not to do by the time we're ready for the months long trip to Mars.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
        Hard to move such mass to the moon and into stable orbit, the power required and the stresses would be tremendous.unless you could disassemble part first. Also, you then have the issue of emergency service and abandonment, where does the crew go?
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
      Mars would be a good bet, if, and if, you could guarantee you had all the materials and power to survive. It would require a huge amount of power and fuel to move such mass, and be very expensive, so who would pay?
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  • Posted by Temlakos 6 years, 7 months ago
    I have indeed read the article and many of the comments. Yes, several people do not want a private company involved in space. In fact those same people do not like private companies at all. If they'd had their way two centuries ago, the railroads would have been public utilities from the get-go. Show them any private company that provides goods or services on a massive scale, and they'll show you Jay Gould. It's that simple.

    Now let's see what it would take to make it happen. First, if the ISS is going to de-orbit, then it is a total loss. Absolutely any person or group that can stop it from burning (and likely crashing), has the absolute right of salvage.

    Having said that, I can point to one serious obstacle to overcome: the Moon Treaty.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Tr...

    "The Agreement Governing the Activities of States on the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies,[3] better known as the Moon Treaty or Moon Agreement, is an international treaty that turns jurisdiction of all celestial bodies (including the orbits around such bodies) over to the international community. Thus, all activities must conform to international law, including the United Nations Charter.

    In practice it is a failed treaty because it has not been ratified by any state that engages in self-launched manned space exploration or has plans to do so (e.g. the United States, the larger part of the member states of the European Space Agency, Russia (former Soviet Union), People's Republic of China, Japan, and India) since its creation in 1979, and thus has a negligible effect on actual spaceflight. As of November 2016, it has been ratified by 17 states."

    http://disarmament.un.org/treaties/t/...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Tr...

    The United States is not one of the parties. So Donald Trump needs to guarantee the protection of Richard Branson, Elon Musk, or whoever is willing to go up there, attach a bunch of boosters to the station, and perform Trans-Lunar Injection to get it to the Moon. (Or else do what I would recommend: boost it to GEO. Its first mission: to serve as the orbiting construction shack for the Space Elevator.) That could mean a big appropriation for the Space Command, United States Air Force. Perhaps then the Space Command would spin off and become the United States Space Force.

    The obvious alternative is for a totally private concern to rocket up there, take it over, attach boosters to it, boost it to GEO, and then assert independence. Call it Mulligan's Station, or Galt's Station, or Atlantis.
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  • Posted by term2 6 years, 7 months ago
    we have enough problems right here on earth. I agree that exploring space has advanced technology, but private ownership would advance it further.
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