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Killing Them is Killing Us, by Robert Gore

Posted by straightlinelogic 8 years, 1 month ago to Government
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“Live and let live,” is, in American mythology, a benevolent and almost uniquely American attitude. We destroyed Japan and Germany in World War II and then helped rebuild them. Live and let live goes down well with the living, the winners. However, it’s often nothing more than balm for an uneasy conscience, hand sanitizer for bloodstained hands. A century and a half later, many Southerners lack this “unique” American attitude towards their conquerers in the War of Northern Aggression.

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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    The siren song of pacifism has lured many into slaughter by the merciless. The U.S. has a record of rising to the occasion to fight nasty folk, then very quickly falling back into an isolationist line of thinking and short term memory loss.

    William Randolph Hearst had a lot to do with getting the Spanish American war underway. If you look at the headlines of his papers at the time, they are a screaming example of jingoistic propaganda.

    The U.S. helped the jihadis drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan. We stopped the Serbian slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia. We freed Kuwait from Saddam Hussein and prevented the seizure or destruction of the Muslim holy cities. In exchange we got 9/11.

    Military action defending against radical Islam will be a generational war. The enduring threat, and our increasing reliance on technology reminds me of Starship Troopers (the Heinlein novel, not the movies), and we may find ourselves morphing into Heinlein's envisioned society to survive.
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  • Posted by chad 8 years, 1 month ago
    Great article as usual by the way. Thanks Robert.
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  • Posted by chad 8 years, 1 month ago
    The war can be traced to many ongoing disputes and interferences in each others governments. Would it be different if the USA had not been involved in the region backing different sides in their intramural wars and supporting tyrannies to get favorable treatments in the market? Would the Islamists be angry at America any way? Some would. Could it be brought to violence? Less likely but of course there is no way to prove their responses would be different. Killing people to get what you want from them always results in hatred and anger and similar responses. How do objectivists withdraw from these problems? It is difficult when there is so much hero worship encouraged for the killers on both sides. It is sold the same way on both sides, we are protecting ourselves. There is nothing wrong with self defense but is unlikely any war was ever fought for that purpose.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 1 month ago
    I think the civil war was just economic in that the south wanted OUT, just like California wants OUT of the union. I think that states that want out should be allowed to get out. I would like to live in a state that adhered to Objectivist principles actually. Fat chance of getting that !!! The socialist states would want to go to war to prevent it.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Lincoln's assassination was a tragedy for the South, as he had planned to deal with the defeated rebel states much as the U.S. later dealt with Japan and Germany. He wanted to enable to southern states to reunite with the union with a degree of dignity, and restore the economy. There are still some scholars who believe that radical abolitionists enabled Booth in his assassination attempt, not wanting to see the defeated Confederates avoid punishment for slavery. Had Lincoln survived, things might have turned out very different.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Oh, but the defiant south dared to oppose the all-knowing Abe Lincoln and his Whig-rooted GOP plan to loot the south to finance New York manufacturing concerns who could not compete with European manufacturing in the free market.
    States Rights had to be destroyed for the federal aristocracy to gain full control as Hamilton had intended.
    How dare the south oppose such a plan designed for the greater good?
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 1 month ago
    The whole point of governments was to protect the citizenry. In times of battle, the surfs gathered up their belongings and scurried behind the castle walls for their king, lord, thane, whatever to protect them.In order to do so the King Whatever built an army. The king knew that their success in creating wealth provided their people with a higher standard causing neighboring states to want some of the action. We all know the stories, stir into the pot, greed, envy, and all the negatives provided to humans through volition and you have conflict. In such a world not only going to war, but being prepared for war is felt to be essential for survival. Even those who advocate not participating in conflict unless it is a direct threat will often yield to hawks when an enemy starts building a great war machine. if ever there is an incentive to become the murderers as described by Mr. Gore today's geopolitical situation is it.It boils down to If we need to fight, I want me, my children and grandchildren to survive and prosper, even if mean annihilation of everyone who isn't us.
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  • Posted by JohnJMulhall 8 years, 1 month ago
    So Robert Gore would like us to commit suicide. Hmmmm. I pass. Tyranny has wanted to rule the world since Cain killed Abel (jealousy) and continues to this day (Muslims setting up their Caliphate). If you don't defend yourself (or others) it is suicide (or complicit murder). That may seem simple and there are people who will 'suffer remorse' because the lose sight of the objective - you and your family live and prosper. I would treat the 'remorseful' with compassion, and remind them of what they have preserved - lives and different ways of living, be it here in the USA, or Croatia, or where-ever the Kurds are living. Has humankind have a history of this? Oh, yes.
    But what the founders of our Great Country tried to give us was the very best human institution to assure it didn't happen here, and be the example for the rest of the world. Have we slipped? We are human, and that is not a justification, but I still believe we are the best available institution. Kill others so my family, friends, community, way of life is preserved? Yeah, I'll do that again and I'll face my God when the time comes.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I didn't know about those other mistakes. Even if they had done things right, US was founded on the notion of people who believe their country's gov't is overbearing should separate and form a new country. It seems impossible for separatists not to have resentment.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 1 month ago
    Having read the play in school and having seen versions on the screen, including a Japanese adaptation called Throne Of Blood, I'm pretty sure I'm right when I state that the Macbeths killed out of pure ambition. That would definitely mess with the mind of a murderer capable of a guilty conscience.
    Not so sure what was really up with the Spanish-America War, but every war waged by the USA since was motivated by self-defense. That would include the "police actions" in Korea and Vietnam due to a "domino theory" fear of a Communist world conquest.
    Now we have Muslims (just the extremists?) out to do the same thing but as their High Most Holy Koran commands.
    Just after the World Trade Center was Pearl Harbored, a guitar player at a televised memorial event started to sing "Let It Be."
    Aurgh! 3,000 Americans murdered and this twit sings "Let It Be?"
    Me dino got so mad I almost hurled something heavy at my expensive big HD screen. Fortunately $ka-ching$ tempered my wrath and I just turned the TV off and just growled for a while.
    Now after years of bloody war, Obama's stupid too soon retreat, the rise of the ISIS depravity, endless jihad civilian massacres here and in Europe, a never ending stream of returning PTSD vets with a VA scandal later, me dino no longer knows what to think. Or maybe I do.
    Perhaps the thing to do is seal our borders, let the savages kill each other in the Middle East and work on our anti-missile missile technology while we wait.
    Wait for what?
    It may take 20 years. It may take a hundred.
    The Muslim dream of a worldwide caliphate will be coming in huge numbers to convert, enslave or murder us, just as their High Most Holy Koran commands.
    Me dino is a huge advocate of self-defense. That's the only time kill or be killed is justified homicide.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 1 month ago
    The reason American Southerners have a degree of lingering resentment toward their Northern conquerors is that unlike Japan and Germany, who we wooed with kindness and generosity, post Civil War reconstruction was an act of continuing punishment. We allowed some officials with Nazi ties to continue their work, while all Confederate officials were banned from holding office, or even voting. We poured American money into a ravaged Europe and Japan, while the already ravaged Southern economy was further destroyed through the actions of predatory "carpetbaggers." Within ten years, Europe and Japan were again major players in the world economy, while the American South didn't recover economically until the early 1920s, and got immediately slapped down by the Great Depression. There's an example of how to keep your conquered enemy angry for generations.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 1 month ago
    Oh, Robert, this is your most passionate, true and gripping essay ever. Totally on the mark, tragically prophetic. Now how can we, the somnolent trapped in lassitude and the resistant helplessly restrained, bring about the desperately needed change?
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  • Posted by Abaco 8 years, 1 month ago
    Thanks for touching on this, Robert. Well done. I can't help but say it with emotion when I tell my neocon friends, "We killed a million in Iraq. A MILLION!" Their eyes just roll around in their head when I say it as though I said, "The moon is cheese. CHEESE!"
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 1 month ago
    Ah...but aren't these fights, between governments?, and with perhaps an islamic exception, aren't these fights Not against the populations. Yes, the innocent population gets harmed, much less these days that in years past but still, if not physically harmed, they are financially harmed, their way of life, what we call their culture, is harmed...isn't that where the guilt comes from?

    However, yes, what you call the "ordinary human", I call the epitome of humanity can't imagine shooting another and if put in that position might very well feel guilty for shooting the enemy...realizing that the soldiers on the other side are perhaps just like us. Again, the fight is between the governments that make us fight each other.
    Maybe, we should require everyone in governments; presidents, generals, congressmen that voted to fight and all the bureaucrats to do the fighting with the presidents leading the charge...maybe we wouldn't have so many wars...

    But wait, there's more, History does show us that communist's want to take down capitalism, America in particular and rule the world, (The Enemy Within) . This effort is directed toward the entire world and all of America's enemies are either cooperating or have been ginned up as a distraction in this fight, (islam).
    ...so what are we supposed to do when the leaders of russia, china, islam and others have actively coerced us but not the people of these countries.
    Ignoring the situation isn't going to make it go away...we might live and let live, but they won't.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 1 month ago
    "Try as it might, the government cannot entirely shield it’s constituents from the knowledge and consequences of its murderous ways. Having learned its lesson in Vietnam, it can keep its media puppies docilely distant from much of the killing, but the Internet has proven not entirely controllable. And although most people don’t make the connection, institutionalized murder is responsible for an appreciable part of the government’s $20 trillion debt and $200 trillion in unfunded promises"

    I have had this same thought at the outrage when raw video of the military using its weapons is leaked: What did people think we were doing with these weapons if not using them? But I think the gov't "controls the narrative". People are willing to accept things like "air support acting in anti-personnel capacity", but cannot accept it when they see video of it in action.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 1 month ago
    The parts about pushing a button reminded me of reading in What It Is Like to Go to War how soldiers in the past had a long trip home to process what happened. In more recent wars they fly home in a less than a day. In modern war, they come home for dinner after directing drones in combat, with no time to process.
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