Yes, Profiling is OK

Posted by $ blarman 7 years ago to Economics
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Walter Williams op-ed on profiling and why it shouldn't be a dirty word.
SOURCE URL: https://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2017/04/05/is-profiling-ok-n2307818?newsletterad=


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  • Posted by Temlakos 7 years ago
    Profiling is how El Al Israel Airlines have not had even an attempted skyjacking since the Dawson's Field Incident. And even then, the captain, realizing he had a nefarious passenger on board, threw his plane into a steep dive to throw the intruders off balance. One of them broke his silly neck; a passenger cracked a bottle of liquor over the other one's head.

    Since then, El Al always provide their own security for passenger screening. Nattily dressed, scrupulously polite security officers, all of them IDF veterans, grill every passenger to find out how they got to the airport, where they will go when they get there, etc., etc. I know: I flew El Al to Israel five years ago, as a tourist. I never felt safer in the air.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years ago
    I profile people by the way they look and behave all the time. It's a survival technique.
    In the wild I'm looking out for the lions, tigers and bears--oh my!
    Chipmunks, squirrels and cuddly little bunny rabbits fail to trigger a threat response for some funny reason.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years ago
      It is not "profiling" per se, but the standard against which one profiles. As I noted below: "At the David Ben-Gurion Airport, the security officers do not care if you are an Arab or a Jew or a Buddhist; Black or White or Green; male, female, or gayly transgendered. They want to know if you are evasive."

      In this case, if African-Americans males are 30% more likely to suffer from high blood pressure, then, as an employer, should I not profile and discriminate in order to keep my costs down? If women are more likely to leave work and draw childcare time...
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years ago
        Speaking of race, I've seen the Alabama DOC profile with reverse discrimination.
        Two corrections officers I had known for 18 years competed to make sergeant.
        The white guy was no nonsense by the book and he knew "the book" inside and out.
        The black guy was all and all goof ball and I can think of a number of other black officers who would be good sergeants if they wanted the grief;
        Let's just say the white guy didn't make sergeant.
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        • Posted by EdGoldstein 7 years ago
          You do realize that you are a racist by observing reality. The Black deserved that promotion because of racism. Competence does not matter in leftist lala land.
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          • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years ago
            BLM would picket my Jurassic World paddock.
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            • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years ago
              Yes, but in the day RLM must've been something! Reptile Lives Matter!
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              • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years ago
                Yeah, the dinosaur age only lasted about 179 million years and it took the incoming velocity of a 6-mile-wide asteroid to end it.
                According to a book I read during the late 70s and other things I've read since, dinosaurs were of a separate genus from reptiles and some scientists say birds are dinosaur survivors.
                Evidently, science came up with the warm-blooded theory even before they theorized theropods like T-Rex and allosaur walked like teeter-totters as evidenced by the illustration on that paperback I bought~
                http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15...
                That's not how theropods even stand in the Jurassic Park movies.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years ago
    Dr. Williams is,as usual, right on the money.Most people in positions of responsibility might well profile people several times a day - mentally. Most people do it without thinking about it and that's where the trouble starts. It is easily shown that profiling often slides into prejudice so one should be careful to make sure the profile is valid.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years ago
    Aren't all efforts to correct racial, cultural, or gender bias a form of profiling? White males are automatically considered "privileged" in educational and government circles. When a minority gets special treatment regarding college admission or job consideration, isn't that a form of profiling that automatically tags them as inherently inferior?

    Any time we set different standards for males and females, we're profiling. The stupidest difference I saw during the Carter era, when the Army was ordered to reduce the distance a woman had to throw a grenade from 15 yards to 10 yards. After a general pointed out that the lethal range of grenade shrapnel was just under 15 yards, the order was quickly withdrawn.
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  • Posted by Eyecu2 7 years ago
    Everyone profiles all the time. The only time anyone complains about it is when it bothers someone on the Left.

    You will never hear anyone on the Left complaining about the way that they profile gun owners or anyone else on the Right.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years ago
    I totally agree with this. It is not black and white. It is far more.
    How many people, women or men, would be afraid of a ride on an empty bus at midnight with an attractive, well dressed thirty-something black woman. Compare this to riding the same bus with a 240 lb, 6'4" twenty-something, scruffy, tattooed white man.

    This profiling nonsense has gone too far. We are trying to weed out survival traits in favor of political correctness, and if fully implemented, just about everyone would suffer.

    The best path forward is to eliminate the boundaries by data. Gandhi and Mandela showed a means to address this, without asserting that behaving as a hoodlum and demanding one's status was the new cultural norm. How about behaving like the people that succeed, and setting a cultural norm around success?
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  • Posted by chad 7 years ago
    If you are profiling against someone because of their race that is morally wrong and allowable under liberty. I would not support a business if it isolated or refused customers based on their race or ideology however if they profiled against bullies and thieves (which would mean most of congress would not be allowed in) I would prefer that business and use it.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years ago
    Collective profiling is a failure to think. The essay by Walter Williams' Town Hall blog article is loaded with errors.

    (1) First of all, I have worked in trucking and in household moving. Size and strength are irrelevant. Care for your work is primary. And no one works alone. You always team up for anything not obviously (trivially) a one-person load.

    (2) Just because I am "White" by appearance does not mean that I am not at risk for any number of other health problems. It would be a failure for a doctor to ignore potential problems based on her assessment of my apparent "race" -- because no genetic markers exist for "race."
    What would your medical prognosis be for this girl?
    https://www.sciencenews.org/sites/def...
    The article does not mention that by any "genetic" test for "race" she is Asian, even though she looks African. So, if she walked into a clinic here in Austin, Texas, should she be "profiled" before she is examined and treated?
    As for my "whiteness" I have B-positive blood, more "typical" of west Asians (see here http://anthro.palomar.edu/vary/vary_3... ). So, what profiling would be appropriate for me in the doctor's office?

    (3) The fact that the incidence of Black men in US prisons is twice the incidence of African-Americans in the general population (https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/... ) is a consequence of racial profiling in the US criminal justice system.

    (4) That brings up the problem from Dr. Williams' Town Hall essay of criminal profiling. With the exception of female burglars, most "street criminals" prey on their own neighborhoods. If the thefts occurred near a senior home, I would look there first before I went into the inner city to roust out young Black men on the theory of profiling.

    (5) On that note, there was a "libertarian realist" i.e., racist, using the name Brad Thun who visited some "Objectivish" boards. He asked this, rhetorically: If you were in an inner city alley at night and you saw someone coming, would you be more afraid of a young Black male or an old white woman. One of the "profilers" took the bait. However, I pointed out that a young Black male belongs in the alley - heck, the kid's probably coming home from the library - but the old white woman is the odd event, and more likely to be a danger. ... and no asked, "Why am I in an inner city alley at night?"

    At the David Ben-Gurion Airport, the security officers do not care if you are an Arab or a Jew or a Buddhist; Black or White or Green; male, female, or gayly transgendered. They want to know if you are evasive.

    I mentioned this before: my degrees are in criminology. Most people only know a "mass mediated hyper-reality" of crime in which the Internet and television play back for us what they believe our expectations to be. More people are afraid of Hannibal Lecter than they are of Dean Daniels, William Bradley, or Billy Johnston. (See here: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/2015-... )

    ("Mass mediated hyper reality of crime" on my blog here: http://csiflint2011.blogspot.com/2011... )

    Moreover, we often know the names of corporations but not the names of the actual individuals who commit mass crimes. (See for example here; https://cfpub.epa.gov/compliance/crim... ) That said, it would be wrong to profile corporations as statistically likely to be criminals.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years ago
      That certain medical conditions affect some of certain racial backgrounds far more than they affect others is fact. Does it mean that those proclivities should be relied on to the exclusion of everything else? No. That's where you are taking things to the absurd. Profiling for medical problems is one tool of many.

      3. No, actually, it is the result of fatherlessness, and this has been proven. Blacks are far less likely to have a father in the home than whites and you can blame much of the welfare state for this phenomenon. Prior to the 1960's, black marital rates were on par with white marital rates and so were crimanal prosecution rates. Since then, black marital rates have plummeted and black criminal prosecution rates have soared. (http://www.fathers.com/statistics-and...)

      4. See #3. The real problem again is fatherlessness. The areas where crime is the worst are also the areas where teenage pregnancy (and fatherlessness) is rampant. Without positive male role models, teenagers act like those they hang out with.

      5. I can run away from an old lady a lot easier than I can run away from a young guy - regardless of the skin color of either. It's a hypothetical that's interesting to pontificate about, but the simpler answer is not to go walking at night in shady areas of town. (BTW, I've seen the shows too and they always paint the good guy as being able to take out a half dozen opponents. It's simply garbage. Two, maybe, but more than that and you get overwhelmed by sheer force even without weapons.)

      I'd love to have the training that the Israelis give to their screeners and I'd love to see it replace the body scanners at the TSA. They'd do a better job and not violate rights and waste billions of dollars.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years ago
        I get so caught up in the big ideas that I forget to keep it personal. I grew up without a father.

        Your assumptions seem nice: family values, traditional values, nuclear family. But if you stop and think about it, that is just another kind of sociological excuse for crime: the poor boy couldn't help it because he grew up without a father.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years ago
          "that is just another kind of sociological excuse"

          And that's why this issue is so one-sided for you. You see it in black and white - all or nothing. Profiling is based on trends not absolutes. I completely agree with you that it does not excuse one from using their brain when dealing with other people, but the trends are hard evidence we use to fill in gaps in information in the attempt to mitigate risk. If there were a way when we met people we could instantly know their entire background, their motives, etc., we could always make informed decisions when dealing with other people. But for good reason, we can not.

          I would also note that one's sociological situation doesn't excuse one from making poor decisions. It just points us to larger social issues which if we chose to embrace different social policies could be dramatically affected. People make bad decisions and sometimes the consequences affect other people - especially family. It's one of the reasons why so many social policies we have adopted are fundamentally flawed - no decision affects purely one's self.
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          • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years ago
            We clearly have several differences in worldview. We share some congruent beliefs in the efficacy of a free market as the result of personal responsibility for one's own life. And it is kind of funny that you think that I see things only in black-and-white, as my Objectivist comrades accuse me of being a situationist for citing articles from Mother Jones. But am an Objectivist. And I perceive you as a conservative. So, at some level, we are going to continue talking past each other. Your opinions on crime are informed by your experience. I have to accept that, even as I come to different conclusions for other reasons.
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    • Posted by Maritimus 7 years ago
      Hello, MM,
      My impression is that you have a lot of free time.
      I think that your writing, in this instance, contains logical errors, too numerous to call out all. I will just choose one: your number three above. You state it as if it were a self-evident truth. I think that it is not, and I think that, as it stands, is plain wrong. This is not to say that there is no racial prejudice in the justice system. But, it is only one factor, among many, contributing to the observed truth. Certainly not THE CAUSE, as you pretend.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years ago
        I am a professional writer. I do this for an hour every morning on one or another "Objectivish" discussion boards. For me, it is like when a concert violinist takes a guitar and a bottle of wine down to the corner to jam.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years ago
      "blog article is loaded with errors"
      Some of it strikes me as an effort to shoehorn grouping people into bunch of situations where it makes no sense. I don't understand the reason for this because seeing individuals as group members is a reals problem, and there is not a problem of ignoring obvious group trait correlations that would be helpful.

      On your points:
      #1 - This is counter-intuitive and does not ring true to me. With moving (and hand-to-hand fighting for that matter), technique matters a lot, but physical size/condition matters a lot too.
      #2 - Yes! There are also things like heart attacks that we think of as affecting men, so when women present with nausea and shortness of breath, on the average doctors are slower to check for heart attack.
      #3 - Yes. It's a disgrace. I don't have the answer. My UU minister thinks BLM is helpful. I take their point and support BLM. But I think we should try to systematize criminal justice rather than accept we're all biased and then try to address the biases (e.g. racism) one at a time. At the same time, policing depends on split-second decisions, and in those decision implicit bias is a huge factor.
      #4 - Yes, not only because it's true, but there's also a cost in citizens seeing the police as protecting on group (e.g. the senior home) and treating another group as the likely suspects. It's hard to get the "likely suspects" group to work with the police to stop crime.
      #5 - If he's the "libertarian" racists whose videos I've seen, he's not worth talking about.
      Regarding corporations - It sounds like it's easier for the law than it is for public opinion to pierce the veil.
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years ago
        If BLM wanted to be "useful" maybe they would tackle the dysfunctional inner city environment where 95% of murders of blacks are by other blacks, not police. They're more of a distraction and eye candy for the paparazzi than productive.

        Agree the justice system needs a tuneup. The Oklahoma legislature is acting to do just that, after the voters told them we wanted changes. Drug users who aren't dealers will go to rehab instead of jail; non-violent misdemeanors will be dealt with by judges with lots of latitude and alternatives to jail time; non-violent felons will get more attention from an administrative board with respect to parole; non-violent offenders will have increased opportunity to have criminal records expunged; more focus on victim restitution than punishment overall. We'll be seeing if it works.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years ago
          "maybe they would tackle the dysfunctional inner city environment"
          [Sarcasm]It's that easy? Maybe the thought hasn't occurred to them yet.[/Sarcasm]
          That's great that OK legislature is instituting reforms.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years ago
        Just on the matter of size, I have worked as a mover: I am 5-8 and 140. I have worked with guys smaller than I am. When we moved our own home one time, I emptied a 4-story house, sofas, beds, desks, chairs, tables, bookcases, 100 cases of books, all of it by myself. into three trailers. It took a few days. Like martial arts - judo especially - physics wins.

        I had already long since worked on loading docks when I was inspired by Michigan engineer Wally Wallington:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsoYk...
        Once I saw this, I knew that I could move anything. Case in point - just one - after the big home, we had a back yard with a big picnic table. Following Wallington, to mow the lawn, I up-ended the table and walked it across the yard on its pivot points.
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  • -1
    Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years ago
    I don't think it should be a "dirty" word, but it's usually not smart. In most of the cases, they're actually examples of areas where grouping people confuses the issue. It says men have better distance vision, but an eye chart would be a much more reliable way to identify people with good eyesight. For unloading furniture, it presents the false choice of a complicated strength test vs grouping by sex, skipping the obvious choice of looking at their size, age, and physique. In the law enforcement example, if criminals find out the profile they'll recruit members of groups where criminals are under-represented.

    Focusing on groups comes at the expense of not focusing as much on individuals. We are adapted to group people and fear people outside our group, a trait beneficial to hunter/gatherer bands with no legal system, but in the modern world it's a horrible trait because a lot of human progress comes from people doing things different, not following the group.

    In most cases, including most of the examples in the article, I say focusing on group identities is not smart.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years ago
      You took a hit, and I was going to give you a thumbs up, but I left the 0 because I want it shown that there exists in the Gulch, an undercurrent of collectivism. The discussion elsewhere here on The Bell Curve also reveals the same prejudices for what Ayn Rand called "social metaphysics."

      See my comments below.
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years ago
        You took a hit in that long reply you wrote.
        You mentioned prisons. When I was a corrections officer for 21 years, I've group-wise profiled black inmates among black inmates. white inmates among white inmates and integrated inmates among integrated inmates.
        See something fishy? Into in it I went.
        Now retired in the "free world?" No one's paying me to look for trouble. I'm turning around and going the other way.
        I'm concealed carry should I get stuck into a situation but so far I've been able to keep the gun hid. May that good luck hold.
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      • Posted by $ CBJ 7 years ago
        Isn't considering the downvote as evidence of "an undercurrent of collectivism" a form of profiling? Unless you know the motivation for the downvote, you can't be certain that it is an example of "an undercurrent of collectivism". (The downvoter was not me, by the way.)

        I don't think Walter Williams' views contain an "undercurrent of collectivism", and he didn't use collectivist arguments to make his point. His views and arguments have nothing to do with "social metaphysics."

        Ayn Rand defined a "social metaphysician" as "one who regards the consciousness of other men as superior to his own and to the facts of reality." Profiling - an evaluation of the likelihood of non-obvious attributes based on observation of more obvious ones - is not in itself an expression of social metaphysics. It is a proper tool that helps to evaluate the facts of reality in the presence of incomplete information, and a guide to further examination of the entity being profiled.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years ago
          As I said in my reply to Allosaur above, it is not "profiling" per se but the profile that is held as a the standard. You probably know The Right Stuff. The NASA liaisons come to Edwards AFB to find candidates for the astronaut program.
          "What about Yeager over there?"
          "He doesn't fit the profile."
          "Yeager doesn't fit the profile?!"
          "He never went to college..."

          Williams' article just excuses all of the old prejudices. Black men have high blood pressure? You don't want to hire one. Women have babies? Pay them less.

          Williams wrote:
          "In the real world, there are many attributes correlated with race and sex. Jews are 3 percent of the U.S. population but 35 percent of our Nobel Prize winners. Blacks are 13 percent of our population but about 74 percent of professional basketball players and about 69 percent of professional football players. Male geniuses outnumber female geniuses 7-to-1. Women have wider peripheral vision than men. Men have better distance vision than women."

          In every case, there are more-or-less objective tests to determine who is the best candidate, irrespective of race or gender.

          This would be obviously ridiculous: "Every fighter aircraft will be a side-by-side cockpit with a female on the left and a make on the right."

          How about this: "I do not understand why my moving company went out of business. I hired a lot of really big strong guys."

          The salient point is not that we "profile" i.e., measure against a standard, but what the standards are. Williams excuses all of the wrong ones. Myself, I want to know who has read Atlas Shrugged.
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          • Posted by $ CBJ 7 years ago
            Re: “Williams' article just excuses all of the old prejudices.” No it doesn’t. Nowhere in the article does Williams advocate or excuse judging a person’s character based on his or her race or gender. And you left out the next paragraph of Williams' article, which puts the statement of his that you quoted in context:

            “The bottom line is that people differ significantly by race and sex. Just knowing the race or sex of an individual may on occasion allow us to guess about something not readily observed.”
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